posted
its prolly a real photo. it only has an impact with the text add'd to it tho.
this is prolly part of a parade and you dont expect people to stand up everytime they see a flag do you? (visual of nobody sitting down in public for the past year)
for all we know the old guy could be standing up to get the attention of his son who is one of the marines marching.
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posted
I'm a bit puzzled as to just what is the object in his chair. It looks like a sheet of newspaper or carboard; if that's what it is, maybe he was standing up to pull it out from underneath him. Or maybe it's a flattened cushion he was adjusting. And if he was really standing for the flag, he's have a pretty long stand, since it would appear to be a big parade. However, his posture suggests that he was just hauling himself up for a few moments, or just about to sit down. Try that posture yourself, supporting yourself on the arms of a chair, and see how long you manage it. Given that we don't know the circumstances of the picture, just what is the point of the text?
EDIT: In fact, taking a second look at the pic, he's not even supporting his weight on his arms - he appears to be pulling the chair underneath him.
posted
1) Not everybody who uses a wheelchair is completely immobile. Many can stand, and even amble about short distances, but might no longer have the endurance to deal with an entire parade, including the hike to-and-from the car.
Hypothesis: This fellow (judging from the lack of tension in his arms) isn't standing on his hands, but he does appear to be ensuring the wheelchair stays under him, possibly in case he runs out of steam, possibly because he's just gotten up and isn't quite fully balanced yet.
2) He may not be standing for the flag (which means he'd be standing every two minutes), but possibly for the marines.
Hypothesis: The marines marching by may be the current generation of his old unit. A son, or grandson may be marching, and/or he may be a veteran marine from some another unit. I could certainly understand why a vet might be especially moved to stand in any of these instances.
One of the recent Rememberance Day parades here in Canada (this was in Ottawa, I think) included a unit of canadian WWII veterans, many of whom had to be wheeled with assistance, many who were marching, some with canes. Quite an experience for them, I'm sure, and a very stirring experience for the spectators.
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SunRaven01
The Red and the Green Stamps
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quote:Originally posted by Smoker: this is prolly part of a parade and you dont expect people to stand up everytime they see a flag do you? (visual of nobody sitting down in public for the past year).
Well, actually, yes I do -- if the flag is being presented as in a parade. You should also, if you are in the armed services and in uniform, salute as the flag passes you. If you are not in the armed services, or if you are but out of uniform, you should also put your hand over your heart.
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posted
Am I the only person that thinks the flag is just a SYMBOL? I used to get into it with people who think the flag is this larger than life entity that deserves respect akin to worship.
I would imagine that most parades this year are going to have a flag in nearly every group. It would be unrealistic to expect all the spectators to stand up every two minutes just because a piece of tri-colored cloth is passing by.
Most people didn't give two cents about the flag before 9-11, and it burns me that now people consider themselves patriots because they bought a flag from Wal-Mart for 6.96. If you want to be a true patriot, enlist in the military, volunteer to help with a charity, do SOMETHING. Standing up for a piece of cloth is one of those throwaway gestures that doesn't mean much but makes people feel "holier-than-thou".
quote:Originally posted by moviegirl_1: Am I the only person that thinks the flag is just a SYMBOL? I used to get into it with people who think the flag is this larger than life entity that deserves respect akin to worship.
I would imagine that most parades this year are going to have a flag in nearly every group. It would be unrealistic to expect all the spectators to stand up every two minutes just because a piece of tri-colored cloth is passing by.
Most people didn't give two cents about the flag before 9-11, and it burns me that now people consider themselves patriots because they bought a flag from Wal-Mart for 6.96. If you want to be a true patriot, enlist in the military, volunteer to help with a charity, do SOMETHING. Standing up for a piece of cloth is one of those throwaway gestures that doesn't mean much but makes people feel "holier-than-thou".
MG
Thanks for that.
I had the discussion about flag burning the other day with my folks...As far as I'm concerned, let them burn it. It's CLOTH. Those can't burn the ideal that stands behind what people did in it's name: protecting this country.
I've got lots more reverence for the vets that have served than most Merikins I know (those that *I* know...not necessairly Merikins in general) and it's curdled my stomach to see that false patriotism that's blossomed since September 11 of last year.
Be proud, if you want. My opinion is if you want to show national pride, it's gonna take more than waving a flag.
-K "My 2¢ worth"
-------------------- "You never know when you will be attacked by a wild tortilla" - José Zavala "Happiness isn't happiness without a violin playing goat" Be good and you will be lonesome Posts: 3569 | From: USVI | Registered: Jun 2000
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phobia
The Red and the Green Stamps
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[rant]Right on, Manta and Movie Girl! I agree 200%. I have refused to say the Pledge of Allegiance since 8th grade because I will NOT pledge my allegiance to some piece of cloth my school district probably bought wholesale from Hong Kong. [/rant]
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-------------------- All humans are vermin in the eyes of Morbo. Posts: 1600 | From: Minneapolis | Registered: Sep 2002
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SunRaven01
The Red and the Green Stamps
posted
quote:Originally posted by phobia: [rant]Right on, Manta and Movie Girl! I agree 200%. I have refused to say the Pledge of Allegiance since 8th grade because I will NOT pledge my allegiance to some piece of cloth my school district probably bought wholesale from Hong Kong. [/rant]
... AND to the Republic for which it stands ...
Yeah, that's not important, though, is it?
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posted
I think it was around ninth grade that I realized "Hey, if the stupid flag is so insecure that I have to pledge allegiance to it every NFBSKing weekday, why should I bother? It's the flag's problem, not mine." It makes me sad that people patronize the flag instead of getting it the help it needs.
-------------------- "You're all suffering from trauma because it was so boring in the womb!" Posts: 837 | From: Now LIVE from Arkansas! | Registered: May 2002
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posted
I think I will join the club. I actually have to agree with Moviegal, manta and phobia.
It *is* just a piece of cloth. IIRC, it was made *just* to signify OUR NEW country and give us a symbol as a way of signifying us our freedom from britian. Of course, some would argue that that is the very reason we should salute it. However, if I am standing, it is out of respect for the military men presented before me, NOT for the flag they carry. I will be standing out of respect for the MEN who died for us...a flag did NOT die for us- the men did.
-------------------- Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate and wine in hand, body thoroughly used up, and screaming WoW what a ride! Posts: 2924 | From: Flori-duh | Registered: Oct 2001
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SunRaven01
The Red and the Green Stamps
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I don't know where people get the idea that you're venerating this piece of cloth. Of course that's not what you're doing. You are paying respect to all the things that the flag is a SYMBOL for: American freedom, her veterans, her ideals.
Just like the Statue of Liberty isn't the physical embodiment of some nebulous ideal (in other words, liberty).
If you have no respect for the ideals of this country, why do you still live here? Move someplace else more palatable to you. To quote a poster in another thread, Delta is ready to fly you there.
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quote:Originally posted by SunRaven01: I don't know where people get the idea that you're venerating this piece of cloth. Of course that's not what you're doing. You are paying respect to all the things that the flag is a SYMBOL for: American freedom, her veterans, her ideals.
Just like the Statue of Liberty isn't the physical embodiment of some nebulous ideal (in other words, liberty).
If you have no respect for the ideals of this country, why do you still live here? Move someplace else more palatable to you. To quote a poster in another thread, Delta is ready to fly you there.
So far, I'm generally proud to be an American. I"m gonna do something I've never done before, and post a link that's from a website I don't visit too much at all. This is a page that outlines (abeit in biased terms against the amendment) against the desecration of the American Flag.
To set the record straight: *I* personally would only burn a flag of mine if it were time to dispose of it.
The ideals that are behind the flag are what makes it a powerful SYMBOL to the persons of this country. The men and women who have fought and continue to fight on behalf of this country's ideals get my utmost respect.
However, IMO, if somebody wants to protest by burning the flag, that should be their right. It would not be MY personal choice on how to make a statement. If we didn't have the choice to speak up, things would be very different, and you wouldn't have the freedom to tell be to bugger off (which I won't be doing anytime within...oh..the next month or so).
(Pogue, be proud... ...)*
Who thought this would turn into another Flag Flap™?
*edited to add...for the record, I have always flown the US flag at my home...that was the first flag I purchased, and unless inclement weather is afoot, it flies every day. I have a second flagpole that's got the fun flags on it...like the Conch Republic .
-K "*you gotta email me to find out why"
-------------------- "You never know when you will be attacked by a wild tortilla" - José Zavala "Happiness isn't happiness without a violin playing goat" Be good and you will be lonesome Posts: 3569 | From: USVI | Registered: Jun 2000
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quote:Originally posted by SunRaven01: I don't know where people get the idea that you're venerating this piece of cloth. Of course that's not what you're doing. You are paying respect to all the things that the flag is a SYMBOL for: American freedom, her veterans, her ideals.
Just like the Statue of Liberty isn't the physical embodiment of some nebulous ideal (in other words, liberty).
If you have no respect for the ideals of this country, why do you still live here? Move someplace else more palatable to you. To quote a poster in another thread, Delta is ready to fly you there.
Okay, I don't say the Pledge. Before you condemm me to Hell or at least Iraq, let me explain why. I don't take oaths. To do so is like having two sets of rules for telling the truth, and there's really only one - tell the truth. The Pledge is an oath. So I don't say it. It doesn't mean I don't like this country or want to leave it. It just means I don't take oaths.
"There can't be a war on Christmas. Even Cambridge has decorations up!" - an observation I made Posts: 2719 | From: Chicago, IL | Registered: Jul 2000
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You wanna know why I feel that the flag is JUST a piece of cloth?? 1- Because it is. 2-More importantly, americans have come to substitute this piece of cloth(as standing)for patriotism and being an american. I have every right, as do Sister Ray, Phobia, Manta and the others to not want to stand and salute something that is just a piece of cloth. As I said, I will salute or pay respects to the MEN and WOMEN of this country, but I will never pledge my allegiance to a piece of cloth.
-------------------- Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate and wine in hand, body thoroughly used up, and screaming WoW what a ride! Posts: 2924 | From: Flori-duh | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
I'll reiterate the same thing I said again. If a person wants to be a good American, there are a myriad of constructive things you can do to support it. Saluting a piece of cloth is a throwaway gesture that makes the saluter (?) feel good about himself, but doesn't do the country much good.
There is something in one of the Ramona books that sums it up perfectly. Ramona asks her parents what danserly means. They don't know what she's talking about, until she explains that they sing The Star-Spangled Banner every morning, and she wants to know what "danserly" light looks like. It's very typical that a child can recite the Pledge of Allegiance, but often they have no clue what it MEANS.
Symbols, especially ones that are forced upon us from childhood, become a focal point for the values behind them. People forget about the values and instead place importance on the symbols themselves. Suddenly, it becomes a matter of, "You're not pledging the flag? What are you, a Commie?" I just don't buy that mentality.
Once again, if you are TRULY proud of your country, DO something about it. Join the military. Vote in elections. Learn about your government and become part of the process. Give some time helping others learn to read, so they can participate in it as well. Just don't wave a flag in my face and claim that patriotism revolves around venerating this piece of cloth.
quote:I had the discussion about flag burning the other day with my folks...As far as I'm concerned, let them burn it. It's CLOTH. Those can't burn the ideal that stands behind what people did in it's name: protecting this country.
Yeah, and how come nobody gets nearly as upset whenever someone burns a copy of the Constitution? After all, if you burn a copy of the Constitution, you're DESTROYING OUR LAWS! You're DESTROYING the VERY BASIS on which OUR NATION WAS FOUNDED!
Someday the crowd actually may figure out that you can only burn a flag; you can't burn the flag.
-------------------- "Tell me what you eat, and I will tell you what you are." - Anthelme Brillat-Savarin "That lonely recluse who lives down the road is crying out. So is that pregnant teenager. And the prostitute. And the drunkard." Join the Free State Project - I did! Posts: 1516 | From: *sigh* Elmira, NY | Registered: Sep 2001
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Moose
The Red and the Green Stamps
posted
quote:Originally posted by okenter, Slayer of the Swine: Parades suck (unless they throw candy).
quote:Originally posted by phobia: [rant]Right on, Manta and Movie Girl! I agree 200%. I have refused to say the Pledge of Allegiance since 8th grade because I will NOT pledge my allegiance to some piece of cloth my school district probably bought wholesale from Hong Kong. [/rant]
Hong Kong has hardly any manufacturing anymore. It's somehow ironic[1] that the symbol of 'the land of the free' you see was probably made in China.
dave
[1] laying myself open to the alanis trap.
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IndieQueen2
The Red and the Green Stamps
posted
quote:Originally posted by moviegirl_1: Once again, if you are TRULY proud of your country, DO something about it. Join the military. Vote in elections. Learn about your government and become part of the process. Give some time helping others learn to read, so they can participate in it as well. Just don't wave a flag in my face and claim that patriotism revolves around venerating this piece of cloth.
MG
Very well said. I couldn't agree more. I haven't pledged the flag since I was 13, I see no good reason to start now. I don't worship any piece of cloth or feel the need to express my patriotism through repeating an oath. Hell, I'm not patriotic, I'll admit it, ship me off to another country if you like. However, I do vote, and volunteer my time to help other Americans. I like to think that the good things I do outweigh my refusal to pledge a cloth.
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colin sky
The Red and the Green Stamps
posted
flag burning can be a crime, but insn't necessarily one.
for me, the first question that comes to mind when someone is "accused" of burning a flag is... whose flag is it? if it's a flag they purchased themselves, fine. if it's someone elses flag, or a publicly displayed flag, then they should face the consequences of destroying someone else's property.
same would go for burning the constitution. if you burn a photocopy you made, fine. if you burn a book in the library or an original copy...do not pass go, do not collect $200.
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guruwan2b
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
quote:Someday the crowd actually may figure out that you can only burn a flag; you can't burn the flag.
***applause***
I salute the flag. I sing the Star Spangled Banner. I pledge allegience to the flag. I get sniffly when I see my youngest daughter in a patriotic program at school. I stand and salute when my daughter in the Air Force marches by (when I get the chance to see her). I vote in every election. I watch the news to see what is going on (then I come here to see what is really going on!). We fly our flag and this isn't something new for us. We were doing it before 9/11/01. My father was USAF. My husband was USAF. We are proud to be American. It's our right, just like it is your right not to do any of these things.
Kim
-------------------- Too much of this navel gazing and we'll disappear up our own arses. Danvers Carew Posts: 7465 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
Wow and I thought I was the only person who stopped pledging to the flag. I stopped when I was in the fifth grade. I just found it to be wasting time that could be used to learn something.
Angelus "the one time I didn't bother to even stand, I got in trouble." C
-------------------- "Must be Christmas on the Borg ship"-Crow, Overdrawn at the Memory Bank Posts: 196 | From: Del City, Oklahoma | Registered: Mar 2001
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quote:Originally posted by AngelusC: Wow and I thought I was the only person who stopped pledging to the flag. I stopped when I was in the fifth grade. I just found it to be wasting time that could be used to learn something.
Just for the record, I still pledge the flag, but I leave the part out about God. Seems as if you look like you're saying it, regardless of what you say...people leave you alone. Until I give my citizenship up, I'm still an American.
-K "Can't think why I'd renounce my citizenship, though"
-------------------- "You never know when you will be attacked by a wild tortilla" - José Zavala "Happiness isn't happiness without a violin playing goat" Be good and you will be lonesome Posts: 3569 | From: USVI | Registered: Jun 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Manta, Travelin' Gal: Until I give my citizenship up, I'm still an American.
Wouldn't stop being one even if you didn't say the pledge either.
Jaime
Very True, Jaime....very true. I guess I don't have much reason to recite the Pledge anymore. I've been out of school for quite a while, and (whoa! what a surprise! ) my ideas have changed over the years. Lately the only places where I've had occasion to 'salute' the flag has been at....*NASCAR* events (and I probably won't go to any others, because that was the hubby's thing-I was along for the ride) and the occasional baseball game.
I still vote, though. That was one of the first things I changed when I left the hubby-it's important to me
-K
-------------------- "You never know when you will be attacked by a wild tortilla" - José Zavala "Happiness isn't happiness without a violin playing goat" Be good and you will be lonesome Posts: 3569 | From: USVI | Registered: Jun 2000
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Once again, if you are TRULY proud of your country, DO something about it. Join the military.
I would if I didn't have a medical problem stopping me.
quote: Vote in elections.
Check.
quote: Learn about your government and become part of the process.
Check.
quote: Give some time helping others learn to read, so they can participate in it as well.
Check.
quote: Just don't wave a flag in my face and claim that patriotism revolves around venerating this piece of cloth.
MG
Can I do it if I qualify?
-------------------- I'm back to lurking. Posts: 2709 | From: Illinois | Registered: Aug 2000
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Prodigal Groucho
The Red and the Green Stamps
posted
You can tell the fly-by-night patriots right away. They are the ones who put flags on their cars post 9/11 and forgot about them. Now, everywhere I go I see cars with tattered and torn flags flying. It's disgraceful.
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posted
Moonlight, you qualify, so sure, you can wave your flag at me all you want. I just get burned at people who put the flag above the principles.
Something else that bugs me is that if, like me, you decide to speak up about why it's okay not to salute the flag, people automatically assume you hate this country and everything it stands for. How on earth could I not have respect for a country that not only allows me to despise knee-jerk patriotism, but also allows me to gripe about it in any public forum I choose?
If that's not a great country, I don't know what is.
quote:Originally posted by moviegirl_1: Something else that bugs me is that if, like me, you decide to speak up about why it's okay not to salute the flag, people automatically assume you hate this country and everything it stands for. How on earth could I not have respect for a country that not only allows me to despise knee-jerk patriotism, but also allows me to gripe about it in any public forum I choose?
Yeah, and I get bugged by all the people who can't be bothered to spell American properly, the ones who assume that ANY kind of national pride must be "knee-jerk patriotism," and that it must somehow all be in response to the 9/11 attacks.
I guess it's somehow inconceivable that some people found the posting of the flag to be a way of striking back at a group of terrorists that managed to be impossible to retaliate against any other way. Yeah, no one would really want to take part in a gesture meant to show that we're proud to be American, would they? I mean, this is just such a horrible country -- so bad that other people feel the need to strike out against us and kill thousands of innocent people to show us just how bad we really are.
Much like Moonlight, I have circumstances that prevent me from joining the military, but I am a registered voter, I stay on top of politics locally and nationally, and I've done more community service than any of my friends.
Oh, and I can spell American correctly. Excuse me while I go wave my flag.
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SunRaven, apparently you didn't read the first part of my post.
quote:Originally posted by moviegirl_1: Moonlight, you qualify, so sure, you can wave your flag at me all you want. I just get burned at people who put the flag above the principles.
I never once criticized the display of the flag. I never once said that nobody should respect the flag. My criticism was, and still is, of people who think it's some great sin NOT to wave a flag, or salute one. I use the term knee-jerk not as a personal rip at you, but as a general term for those who fiercely wave their flags, but don't do much else.
It may surprise you that I have no problem with saying the Pledge of Allegiance, or with singing the National Anthem. Ah, but if I don't, you'd better believe that somebody will have a problem with me. THAT'S the attitude that makes me upset.
What is so hard about letting everyone be AMERICAN (and yes, I can spell it correctly too) in their own way? Why am I obligated to have the same reaction that you do when a flag is presented? Isn't that telling me, in a subtle way, that I am not free to express myself as I see fit?
quote:Originally posted by moviegirl_1: I never once criticized the display of the flag. I never once said that nobody should respect the flag. My criticism was, and still is, of people who think it's some great sin NOT to wave a flag, or salute one. I use the term knee-jerk not as a personal rip at you, but as a general term for those who fiercely wave their flags, but don't do much else.
Why are they obligated to do "much else?" You can't be bothered to even wave the flag -- why should they have to do more than what you're already doing?
And how do you know that they're not doing "much else?" Are you there when they write their checks to charity? Do you stand over them 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, to make sure they're not guilty of any other knee-jerk patriotic acts?
quote:What is so hard about letting everyone be AMERICAN (and yes, I can spell it correctly too) in their own way? Why am I obligated to have the same reaction that you do when a flag is presented? Isn't that telling me, in a subtle way, that I am not free to express myself as I see fit?
Being a member of a country comes with certain obligations: one of those is taking an oath of allegiance to that country. It's part of what makes you a citizen in that country. Part of it is following the laws of that country -- things like how the flag should be displayed and cared for, and how citizens should perform during the display of the flag.
If you don't want to sing the National Anthem, fine by me. I don't sing it, either, because I can't sing very well. I don't consider it a hardship, however, or some sort of infringement on my freedom of expression because I'm expected to quietly stand with everyone else, and be respectful.
If you think that these are infringements on your personal freedoms, then you have a LOT of learning to do about what it means to be a patriot, and you shouldn't be quite so hasty to judge the people around you who ARE proud to be an American.
quote:Originally posted by SunRaven01: Being a member of a country comes with certain obligations: one of those is taking an oath of allegiance to that country.
I don't consider it a hardship, however, or some sort of infringement on my freedom of expression because I'm expected to quietly stand with everyone else, and be respectful.
First of all, I have no obligation to take ANY oath of allegiance to my country. I was born as a citizen, and that's all I need to do to be considered a citizen. Show me the law that says I need to say an oath to become a citizen and I will retract this.
Second, I don't think it's a hardship to be respectful while others show their patriotism by standing, or saying an oath. Just as I wouldn't walk into a church and condemn them for being a different faith than me. I never said that people should be disrespectful, or cause a fuss because someone else waves a flag.
I'm really sorry this seems to be such an affront to your sense of responsibility to your country. I know quite a few flag-wavers who don't vote, didn't display flags BEFORE 9-11, and could give two cents about the government. While I might not know every single flag-waver personally, I know enough to see a pattern, and any person who doesn't believe what he sees with his own eyes is a fool.
Having said that, I'm going to retire from this "discussion" because you seem to want to make it into a flame war, and I have no desire to fling mud.
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![[Wink]](wink.gif)
...)*
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
) my ideas have changed over the years. Lately the only places where I've had occasion to 'salute' the flag has been at....*NASCAR* events (and I probably won't go to any others, because that was the hubby's thing-I was along for the ride) and the occasional baseball game.![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
I mean, this is just such a horrible country -- so bad that other people feel the need to strike out against us and kill thousands of innocent people to show us just how bad we really are.
