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Author Topic: Can a good Muslim be a good American?
Midgard_Dragon
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by Troberg:
I didn't know that Jack Chick had worked for 20 years in Saudi Arabia...

Besides, I strongly doubt that someone who has chosen to work in Saudi for 20 years would write something like that. Why on earth would you live in a society that so clearly does not fit you for two decades?

My sentiments exactly. I had a similar post typed, but didn't bother. Basically, I think this whole message was written by the same person, and the "sent, replied, etc." parts were written to make it a better story.

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Midgard Dragon
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Amigone201
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by snopes:
Therefore after much study and deliberation....

Where has there been study and/or deliberation? I suggest you try some.

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James D
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by asnakeny:
quote:
Originally posted by snopes:

Theologically - no. Because his allegiance is to Allah, the moon God of Arabia.

moon God? [Confused]

I think not. I say we convince this commenter that Allah is the God of the Bridge of Brooklyn, which is conveniently up for sale...

Perhaps they have confused Allah with Muad'Dib, the kangaroo mouse after which the prophet/messiah Paul Atredies takes his name and is seen as an image in one of the moons of Arrakis - also known as Dune.

It wouldn't suprise me too much, as Herbert did base the fremen (aka Zensuni wanderers) loosely off of various inhabitants of southeastern asia/northern Africa.

stranger things have happened

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Noemi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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So, any bets on how long it is before we see this re-written to be on atheists, pagans, or another religion?

Noemi

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Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult.
My blog, no guarantees about witty or intelligent content. My current projects.
Coveted Beads <---- our eBay store, new items being added somewhat regularly

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Mr. Billion
The First USA Noel


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Done.

quote:
Can a good Christian be a good American?

That question was asked of a person that lived in America for more than 20 years.


The following is his made-up reply:


Theologically - no. Because his allegiance is to Jehova, the man-God of Arabia.

Religiously - no. Because no other religion is accepted by his God (Exodus chapter 20, the first commandment: "you shall have no other gods before me")

Scripturally - no. Because his allegiance is to the ten commandments.

Politically - no. Because they all too frequently listen to frothing-at-the-mouth psychos like Pat Robertson, and guys who write emails like the one above.

Intellectually - no. Because he cannot stop insisting that the American Constitution is based on Biblical principles.

Et cetera. It's way too easy to write ridiculous stuff like that. It's just sad that some people believe it.

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"For the U.S. to get involved militarily in determining the outcome of the struggle over who's going to govern Iraq strikes me as a classic definition of a quagmire." ~Dick Cheney.

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
It wouldn't suprise me too much, as Herbert did base the fremen (aka Zensuni wanderers) loosely off of various inhabitants of southeastern asia/northern Africa.
Not only that, the story pretty much mirrors (in an exaggerated way, of course) the story of T E Lawrence (aka Lawrence of Arabia).

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/Troberg

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Gerard Morvan
Deck the Malls


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Well, in the 19th century, it was the Catholics (spies for the Pope), in the 20th, it was the Jews (remember Leo Franks), now it's the Muslims. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

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Neffti Noel
We Three Blings


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I would just like to applaud this message for signing off with such water-tight BS insurance:

"Call it what you wish... it's still the truth. You had better believe it."

I might just make that my new sig.

ETA - I am also deeply enamoured with the idea that someone who worked in Saudi Arabia for 20 years is automatically an authority on Islam.

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lazerus the duck
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Billion:
Done.

quote:
Can a good Christian be a good American?

That question was asked of a person that lived in America for more than 20 years.


The following is his made-up reply:


Theologically - no. Because his allegiance is to Jehova, the man-God of Arabia.

Religiously - no. Because no other religion is accepted by his God (Exodus chapter 20, the first commandment: "you shall have no other gods before me")

Scripturally - no. Because his allegiance is to the ten commandments.

Politically - no. Because they all too frequently listen to frothing-at-the-mouth psychos like Pat Robertson, and guys who write emails like the one above.

Intellectually - no. Because he cannot stop insisting that the American Constitution is based on Biblical principles.

Et cetera. It's way too easy to write ridiculous stuff like that. It's just sad that some people believe it.
You missed Theologically - no. Because his allegiance is to Jehova, the man-God of Arabia not to oil.

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All the world's a face, And all the men and women merely acne.

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Ophiuchus
Deck the Malls


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All these things are pretty much true about Jews and Christians, especially Catholics, as well.

And the Constitution was NOT based on Biblical principles, it was based on principles that ran 100% contrary to the bible...

You will find nothing in the bible that says that the majority can or will choose the proper path nor that freedom is a good thing. In fact, you'll find a lot to the contrary.

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snopes
Return! Return! Return!


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Can a good Catholic be a good American?

That question was forwarded to a person that worked in Italy for 20 years.

The following is his forwarded reply:

Theologically - no. Because his allegiance is to the papacy.

Religiously - no. Because no other religion is accepted by his God, who commanded: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" (Exodus 20:3).

Scripturally - no. Because his allegiance is to the four gospels and the Bible.

Geographically - no. Because his holy sites are in Palestine.

Socially - no. Because his allegiance to Catholicism forbids him to make friends with Protestants, Jews, or Muslims.

Politically - no. Because his allegiance is to Rome, where he turns for leadership in all matters.

Domestically - no. Because his God commands women to be subservient to men (Genesis 3:16).

Intellectually - no. Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is a based on secular principles and he believes the secular world to be corrupt.

Philosophically - no. Because Catholicism, God, and the Bible do not allow freedom of religion and expression. Catholicism and democracy cannot co-exist. Every Catholic government has been either dictatorial or autocratic.

Spiritually - no. Because Allah is loving and kind, while God is wrathful and destructive ("Leave room for the wrath of God; for it is written, 'Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord'" - Romans 12:19-21).

Morally - no. Because he must submit to priests (spiritual leaders), who engage in pederasty.

Therefore after much study and deliberation....perhaps we should be very suspicious of ALL CATHOLICS in this country. They obviously cannot be both "good" Catholics and good Americans. Call it what you wish....it's still the truth.

You had better believe it.

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Brandi
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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Actually, odds are that the person who came up with the original wad-o-crap would agree with you; many fundmentalists are very anti-Catholic.
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Errata
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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Yes, a lot of evangelicals will act like Catholicism isn't even a branch of Christianity. And not as a conscious insult but as an uncontroversial statement of fact, like nobody could possibly argue that Catholics are Christians. They don't use the word "Protestant", they use the word "Christian" as if it were synonymous with "Protestant".
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Audrey06037
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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I think stereotyping a group of people for any reason is very dangerous. Remember Hitler?

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pinqy
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Audrey06037:
I think stereotyping a group of people for any reason is very dangerous. Remember Hitler?

Yeah, but all those Austrians are the same.

pinqy

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Don't Forget!
Winter Solstice Hanukkah Christmas Kwanzaa & Gurnenthar's Ascendance Are Coming!

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react2distract
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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quote:
Originally posted by pinqy:
quote:
Originally posted by Audrey06037:
I think stereotyping a group of people for any reason is very dangerous. Remember Hitler?

Yeah, but all those Austrians are the same.

pinqy

That's a good 'un. [lol]
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Jason Threadslayer
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Norton II:
The Five Pillars of Islam are:
  • Faith or belief in the Oneness of God and the finality of the prophethood of Muhammad
  • Saying daily prayers
  • Concern for and almsgiving to the needy
  • Self-purification through fasting
  • The pilgrimage to Mecca for those who are able

The Shi'ites break their doctrines up into the five Roots of Religion and ten Branches of Religion.

quote:
Originally posted by Norton II:
Mullahs are only found in the Shiite branch of Islam. The Sunnis have Imams,

Mullah Mohammed Omar is Sunni.

The Twelve Shi'a leaders are the Imams and the Shi'a await the return of the Twelfth Imam, Muhammed al-Mahdi.

Imam is also the title of the person who leads prayers in a mosque.

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Doug4.7
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by snopes:
...Therefore after much study and deliberation....perhaps we should be very suspicious of ALL CATHOLICS in this country. They obviously cannot be both "good" Catholics and good Americans. Call it what you wish....it's still the truth.

You had better believe it.

Well golly gee willikers, glad I just got my passport renewed (and got one for each of my kids). I thought we were going to Europe for a short vacation, not as a permanent move... [Wink]

Of course, you realize, that is one reason some people think we can't have a Catholic President...

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And now for something completely different...

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SiKboy
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by Doug4.7:
quote:
Originally posted by snopes:
...Therefore after much study and deliberation....perhaps we should be very suspicious of ALL CATHOLICS in this country. They obviously cannot be both "good" Catholics and good Americans. Call it what you wish....it's still the truth.

You had better believe it.

Well golly gee willikers, glad I just got my passport renewed (and got one for each of my kids). I thought we were going to Europe for a short vacation, not as a permanent move... [Wink]

Of course, you realize, that is one reason some people think we can't have a Catholic President...

Wasnt JFK a catholic?

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This Space For Rent.

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Lainie
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by SiKboy:
quote:
Originally posted by Doug4.7:
Of course, you realize, that is one reason some people think we can't have a Catholic President...

Wasnt JFK a catholic?
Yes. It was a joke.

People actually did express some of those concerns about Catholics during that election.

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How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black

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Kathleen O'Hara
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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Comparing JFK's Catholism with the MUSLIM religion is RIDICULOUS !!!! Catholism is a very tolerant religion...was back in the 1960's and is even "more lenient" in today's society. Having said that, JFK was NOT A DEVOTE CATHOLIC...Jackie was, but HE WAS NOT ! Devote Catholics don't lie, hang with the MOB or cheat on their wives. He was, however, a very good President and was extremely protective of Americans and the USA. Which is all that mattered, in my opinion as far as what he was elected to do and what the American people expected of him as President of the USA. Our society is NOT a theocracy and as President I do not believe JFK or any other President would
super impose their personal beliefs onto the American people. I know that Geo. W. has been accused of doing that...I,personally do not believe he has FORCED anything in that direction.
I feel very qualified to say this: I am a New Orleans CATHOLIC...so, I know George W. Bush has made errors...I just don't happen to think anything he has done is done that resulted with negative results was ever done with a malicious or evil intent.

Kathleen

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Lainie
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Kathleen O'Hara:
Comparing JFK's Catholism with the MUSLIM religion is RIDICULOUS !!!!

Did you miss the part about it being a joke?

It is, however, a historical fact that JFK's Catholicism was an issue in the election. People really did suggest that he might put loyalty to the Pope ahead of loyalty to the nation. I agree that such concerns were absurd, but they did exist.

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How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black

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Simply Madeline
The First USA Noel


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But the comparison itself is not ridiculous. The comparison points out how ridiculous the original post is.
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Mr. Billion
The First USA Noel


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By the way, welcome to the boards, Kathleen.

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"For the U.S. to get involved militarily in determining the outcome of the struggle over who's going to govern Iraq strikes me as a classic definition of a quagmire." ~Dick Cheney.

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SiKboy
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by Lainie:
quote:
Originally posted by SiKboy:
quote:
Originally posted by Doug4.7:
Of course, you realize, that is one reason some people think we can't have a Catholic President...

Wasnt JFK a catholic?
Yes. It was a joke.

People actually did express some of those concerns about Catholics during that election.

[Bangs side of irony-o-meter] Dammit, I think I forgot to put batteries in this darn thing again...

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This Space For Rent.

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Zachary Fizz
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by Kathleen O'Hara:
Comparing JFK's Catholism with the MUSLIM religion is RIDICULOUS !!!! Catholism is a very tolerant religion...was back in the 1960's and is even "more lenient" in today's society. Having said that, JFK was NOT A DEVOTE CATHOLIC...Jackie was, but HE WAS NOT ! Devote Catholics don't lie, hang with the MOB or cheat on their wives. He was, however, a very good President and was extremely protective of Americans and the USA. Which is all that mattered, in my opinion as far as what he was elected to do and what the American people expected of him as President of the USA. Our society is NOT a theocracy and as President I do not believe JFK or any other President would
super impose their personal beliefs onto the American people. I know that Geo. W. has been accused of doing that...I,personally do not believe he has FORCED anything in that direction.
I feel very qualified to say this: I am a New Orleans CATHOLIC...so, I know George W. Bush has made errors...I just don't happen to think anything he has done is done that resulted with negative results was ever done with a malicious or evil intent.

Kathleen

After some of what I have read on these boards and sites like chick.com, I would certainly have misgivings if this nation were to embrace Catholicism. Is it true that the Catholics do not worship Allah at all, but a made-up pagan god, or possibly the devil? I visited Italy a couple of times and all the women over a certain age seemed to have to wear black. It's pretty scary, to be honest.
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Major D. Saster
The First USA Noel


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That "Allah is a Moon God" thing is a cliché that appears in many Chick tracts... just like the Pope being Satan's agent.

On the other hand, what do the OP mean by "a good Muslim" ? I have a few friends I consider "good Muslims", and they are just like good Christians, good Jews or good Atheists. Open-minded, tolerant, respectful and pragmatic people who see different opinions not as a threat, but as a chance to learn.

One can't be a good-whatever if religious prejudice comes first. In France, a fundie imam who preached that "Muslims should follow the Shariah, which is God's law, and not the inferior, man-made laws of the French Republic" was put into the next plane to Algiers. I can't disagree with that. But there are also catholic fundies who worship Franco or Pinochet as "defenders of the Faith" and preach that democracy is the Devil's work and should be abolished... in the US, you have those scary preachers à la Phelps.

So, if the opening question was "can a religious fanatic of any brand or make be a good and decent citizen in a democratic country ?", the answer is NO... IMHO.

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Desperate, but not serious.

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Troberg
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
After some of what I have read on these boards and sites like chick.com, I would certainly have misgivings if this nation were to embrace Catholicism.
Not only that, the Catholics invented the idea of a pope. Since then, some Coptic sect and Orthodox Christians hastheir own popes. Then, inspired by this, came Dischordianism, which claims that every man, woman and child on earth, regardless of faith, is a pope. If one plots the number of popes against time in a graph and extrapolate that curve, it's easy to see that in just a few decades, the earth will be covered in a 200 km thick layer of popes.

Yet, for some reason, no one ever talks about this imminent danger. What more proof do we need? Catholics are intent on destroying not only our way of life, but the very civilization.

And they don't want me to eff whoever I want without making babies...

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/Troberg

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DrMerkwuerdig
I Saw Three Shipments


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This "Catholicism is not Christian" myth seems to be pretty widespread in the USA. An girl from Oakland (not a Christian fanatic, but in fact a Chinese immigrant without strong religion) once asked me "are you Catholic or Christian?".

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Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity

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Zachary Fizz
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by DrMerkwuerdig:
This "Catholicism is not Christian" myth seems to be pretty widespread in the USA. An girl from Oakland (not a Christian fanatic, but in fact a Chinese immigrant without strong religion) once asked me "are you Catholic or Christian?".

Yeah, I had much the same experience many years ago when I dated a Singaporean Protestant woman. She was a member of an American-style Baptist church. And a British atheist ex-girlfriend (who was raised in a Jewish cultural context) honestly believed (and for all I know still believes) that the high point of Mass was when we drink the still-warm blood of a slaughtered goat. I still feel bad about telling her that.
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Major D. Saster
The First USA Noel


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Bah - apparently, she just confused "mass" and "black mass". Maybe she was colour-blind. [Wink]

Joke aside, I knew a printer in Berne whose main customer was a swiss preacher from a small protestant sect who translated Chick tracts in French and German, gave them to his followers or even exported the french ones to French-speaking african countries.

Reading these tracts, I learned to my amazement [lol] that Pope John Paul II was the Antichrist, the Catholic Church was the Great Harlot of the Apocalypse and Rome was the New Babylon.

Being myself an atheist from a Calvinist family, I don't have too much sympathy for the Church of Rome, but I thought this kind of flaming puritan rethoric straight from the Wars of Religion was a little too much in the late XXth century.

Little did I know that 20 years later, that kind of fire-and-brimstone Christianity would become so powerful. I laughed myself sick reading those tracts, then. Now I don't find them so funny anymore.

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Desperate, but not serious.

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Lainie
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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My ex-h, who is Jewish, grew up in a neighborhood where almost all the Gentiles were Catholic -- or at least all the ones he knew. So for years, he assumed that anyone who described themselves as Christian was Catholic -- sort of a reverse of the prejudice discussed here, except that in his case it was purely ignorance. He really didn't understand the concept of Protestantism, let alone that there were dozens (hundreds?) of Protestant sects.

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How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black

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Sister Ray
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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quote:
Originally posted by Lainie:
My ex-h, who is Jewish, grew up in a neighborhood where almost all the Gentiles were Catholic -- or at least all the ones he knew. So for years, he assumed that anyone who described themselves as Christian was Catholic -- sort of a reverse of the prejudice discussed here, except that in his case it was purely ignorance. He really didn't understand the concept of Protestantism, let alone that there were dozens (hundreds?) of Protestant sects.

Hey, I thought that too when I was a kid! Although it was based on the fact that most Christians I knew were Catholics, it was further fueled when my grandmother, who works at a nursing home, would come home and complain about the old ladies raising a fuss about the church service. "Is it a Catholic service?" they would ask. "I won't go if it's Protestant!" My grandmother would always then say it was the same God. Now, I knew Christians of other denominations, but for years I thought "Protestant" was some strange alien religion, sort of like the Hare Krishnas.

I also didn't realize that other religious sects allowed their clergy to marry, and was scandalized when I heard about minister's children and spouses.

Sister "who wound up being neither anyway..." Ray

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Izzy Quigley
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quote:
Originally posted by DrMerkwuerdig:
This "Catholicism is not Christian" myth seems to be pretty widespread in the USA. An girl from Oakland (not a Christian fanatic, but in fact a Chinese immigrant without strong religion) once asked me "are you Catholic or Christian?".

I've actually heard the opposite a lot - people automatically equating Christianity with Catholicism. It's usually people who don't belong to any Christian denomination, though.

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Purple Iguana
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Hmm... considering that most Middle Eastern countries are not 100% Muslim, but are also partly Christian or Jewish... it seems that a "good Muslim," according to this yahoo's forwarded reply, can't live ANYWHERE ON THE PLANET.

(Maybe Antarctica... but no, there are often researchers down there who have different religious backgrounds. Bottom of the ocean? Nah... this idiot probably thinks it'd be unclean in some way since some creatures are bisexual. Oy...)

Purple--so says the chick whose Muslim husband thinks this guy hasn't once cracked open the Qu'ran--Iguana

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