snopes.com Post new topic  Post a reply
search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hello snopes.com » SLC Central » Hurricane Katrina » New Orleans Katrina Week Murder Rate Normal (Page 1)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!   This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   
Author Topic: New Orleans Katrina Week Murder Rate Normal
Steve Eisenberg
The "Was on Sale" Song


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Steve Eisenberg   E-mail Steve Eisenberg   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
Rumors of deaths greatly exaggerated

quote:


"I've got a report of 200 bodies in the Dome," Beron recalls the doctor saying.

The real total was six, Beron said.

Of those, four died of natural causes, one overdosed and another jumped to his death in an apparent suicide, said Beron, who personally oversaw the turning over of bodies from a Dome freezer, where they lay atop melting bags of ice. State health department officials in charge of body recovery put the official death count at the Dome at 10, but Beron said the other four bodies were found in the street near the Dome, not inside it. Both sources said no one had been killed inside. . . .

That the nation's front-line emergency management believed the body count would resemble that of a bloody battle in a war is but one of scores of examples of myths about the Dome and the Convention Center treated as fact by evacuees, the media and even some of New Orleans' top officials, including the mayor and police superintendent. As the fog of warlike conditions in Hurricane Katrina's aftermath has cleared, the vast majority of reported atrocities committed by evacuees have turned out to be false, or at least unsupported by any evidence, according to key military, law enforcement, medical and civilian officials in positions to know.

"I think 99 percent of it is bulls---," said Sgt. 1st Class Jason Lachney, who played a key role in security and humanitarian work inside the Dome. "Don't get me wrong, bad things happened, but I didn't see any killing and raping and cutting of throats or anything. ... Ninety-nine percent of the people in the Dome were very well-behaved."

. . .

Orleans Parish District Attorney Eddie Jordan said authorities had confirmed only four murders in New Orleans in the aftermath of Katrina - making it a typical week in a city that anticipated more than 200 homicides this year.

. . .

Rumors of rampant violence at the Convention Center prompted Louisiana National Guard Lt. Col. Jacques Thibodeaux put together a 1,000-man force of soldiers and police in full battle gear to secure the center Sept. 2 at about noon.

It took only 20 minutes to take control, and soldiers met no resistance, Thibodeaux said. What the soldiers found - elderly people and infants near death without food, water and medicine; crowds living in filth - shocked them more than anything they'd seen in combat zones overseas. But they found no evidence, witnesses or victims of any killings, rapes or beatings, Thibodeaux said.

Right now I am reading "San Francisco Is Burning," by Dennis Smith, on the 1906 earthquake and fires. There are many parallels, including the false perception that the city was in a state of anarchy requiring military action by battle-hardened troops (now hardened in Iraq, then in the Phillipines). One difference is that the GOP president (more or less in touch by telegraph and primitive radio) didn't get demonized, even though the feds (Army and Army-led National Guard) practically destroyed the city through interference and incompetent fire-fighting. Or maybe he did get heavily criticized, but Smith thought there were more important aspects of the tragedy to explore.

--------------------
"Hillel says yes, naturally, and Shammai says no, and Maimonides is perplexed, and what do I know?"
Julius Lester

Posts: 5780 | From: Suburban Philadelphia, Pennsylvania | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Sara at home   E-mail Sara at home   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Eisenberg:
One difference is that the GOP president (more or less in touch by telegraph and primitive radio) didn't get demonized.....

Probably because there was no Cabinet level Department of Homeland Security which spent the previous four years supposedly preparing to respond to a disaster.

--------------------
Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

Posts: 8317 | From: Reading, PA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Steve Eisenberg
The "Was on Sale" Song


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Steve Eisenberg   E-mail Steve Eisenberg   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sara at home:
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Eisenberg:
One difference is that the GOP president (more or less in touch by telegraph and primitive radio) didn't get demonized.....

Probably because there was no Cabinet level Department of Homeland Security which spent the previous four years supposedly preparing to respond to a disaster.
Yes, it is true that after the 1900 Galveston hurricane, probably the greatest natural disaster in US history, we did not rearrange federal agencies into a new cabinet department. However, much as I applaud President McKinley for not responding to tragedy with a reorganization, I don't see how the founding of the Department of Homeland Security can explain the hysterical jumping to highly negative conclusions as to both the character of the President and the character of the people of New Orleans before we had any reasonable idea of the death toll and how people died.

I might mention another of the many parallels between 1906 and 2005: the replacement of the head of FEMA. In 1906, the political head of the American Red Cross, then more quasi-governmental than now, was found shortly after the disaster to lack disaster experience, and was replaced, by the President, with someone with a stronger resume.

I guess that my reply to you is pretty weak in that I honestly don't know why the hurricane unleashed such a negative reaction among those who lean in the Democratic direction. However, the Homeland Security hypothesis, IMHO, doesn't bear serious scrutiny. It couldn't the actual disaster situation that dictated the emotional response, as people jumped to conclusions before the death situation became known, so what was it? Despite all the Bush-bashing posts here I have read, I just don't get it.

One implication of the OP link should be brought out: Evacuating to the Superdome or Convention Center was extremely unpleasant and dirty for several days, but it did achieve the purpose of safely protecting people from the hurricane. Many people who could have drowned in their homes were undoubtedly saved by the Superdome. After reading the OP, I feel better about New York City's hurricane evacuation plan, which relies on moving people into large public buildings on higher ground in the center of each borough.

--------------------
"Hillel says yes, naturally, and Shammai says no, and Maimonides is perplexed, and what do I know?"
Julius Lester

Posts: 5780 | From: Suburban Philadelphia, Pennsylvania | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Sara at home   E-mail Sara at home   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Eisenberg:
I don't see how the founding of the Department of Homeland Security can explain the hysterical jumping to highly negative conclusions as to both the character of the President.....

However, the Homeland Security hypothesis, IMHO, doesn't bear serious scrutiny. It couldn't the actual disaster situation that dictated the emotional response, as people jumped to conclusions before the death situation became known, so what was it? Despite all the Bush-bashing posts here I have read, I just don't get it.

I don't know why this is a puzzle. The Department of Homeland Security was formed partly to prepare a rapid response to disasters. When FEMA was moved into the DHS, handling natural disasters became a part of it's responsibilities. An obviously unqualified political appointment who turned out not to be up to the job was appointed to head FEMA. The result is that after three years of supposedly preparing for disaster, we watched as people crowded into The Superdome and the Convention Center while others lived on roof tops for days on end while no one managed to evacuate them or even supply them with food and water. We know this because every damn reporter in the country was able to get to those people with cameras and equipment but the no agency -- governmental or otherwise -- seemed to figure out how to do it. We were watching people dying of thirst on TV. I don't give a damn if no one actually died, that situation never should have occurred.

The Department of Homeland Security is in the Executive Branch of the government. That puts in directly under the control of the President. He appointed the head of DHS who appointed the head of FEMA. The buck stops at the top.

Blame the Governor, blame the Mayor we hear. But what agency is it that is suppose to have coordinated the cities and states and made sure they were prepared? The Department of Homeland Security. They failed. FEMA failed. And the man in charge has to take the responsibility. Their failure is his failure.

After all the claims of being ready to handle emergencies that we've heard over the past few years, this was a .....disaster. My anger comes from my shock and disgust that we were so miserably prepared.

--------------------
Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

Posts: 8317 | From: Reading, PA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Malruhn
The "Was on Sale" Song


Icon 304 posted      Profile for Malruhn   E-mail Malruhn   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sara at home:
Blame the Governor, blame the Mayor we hear. But what agency is it that is suppose to have coordinated the cities and states and made sure they were prepared? The Department of Homeland Security. They failed. FEMA failed. And the man in charge has to take the responsibility. Their failure is his failure.

*Tires screeching to a halt*

Hold on a minute!!

What agency is supposed to make sure the cities are ready for a disaster? THE MAYOR'S OFFICE!!

What agency is supposed to make sure that the state is ready for a disaster? THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE!!!

Sorry, as I work in an agency that does emergency preparedness and disaster preparedness, I can say that you are not only off base on this one, you are out of the whole darned ballpark!

We can encourage. We can sternly recommend. We can threaten to threaten. That is as far as the feds can go in emergency planning with the locals.

Oh, and for planning purposes, this incident worked out as well as many models have shown for similar Incidents of National Signifigance... communications were crappy and got much worse before getting better... coordination was crappy and got worse before getting better...

Just like every preparedness drill we do.

Sara, I work with this stuff every day, and am a qualified contingency planner for the Coast Guard for oil/hazmat pollution and WMD/terrorist incidents.

When it comes to regulating the locals, it is impossible due to stuff called "states' rights" and a policy of attempted 'good-will' extended.

When the locals have problems with a contingency exercise, we can make all sorts of recommendations (use the busses, stupid!!) but when it all gets sorted out in the wash, it comes down to the locals actually doing what we suggest. This is akin to the Surgeon General saying smoking is bad and everyone should stop... it is up to the locals to actually do it.

Okay, that one is shot down - quick! Grab another and send it up the flagpole to be saluted by the "Bush is the root of all evil" crowd.

--------------------
Opinions aren't excuses to remain ignorant about subjects, nor are they excuses to never examine one's beliefs & prejudices...

Babies are like tattoos. You see other peoples' & they're cool, but yours is never as good & you can't get rid of it.

Posts: 5622 | From: Jax, Florida | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Sara at home   E-mail Sara at home   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
What was all the "working with the states to make sure every American is safe" stuff that we've been hearing for the past 3 years, then? Where's the oversight the federal government has because they hand Homeland Security funds over to the state? The feds can mandate, they do it all the time. And they can do it without providing the funds to carry out the mandates by tying other funding in with the mandate. What do you think the whole No Child Left Behind brouhaha is about?

States get Homeland Security money. Homeland Secuity therefore gets to do more than encourage.

quote:
Oh, and for planning purposes, this incident worked out as well as many models have shown for similar Incidents of National Signifigance... communications were crappy and got much worse before getting better... coordination was crappy and got worse before getting better...

So for all the additional preparedness and spending we have been told has being going on for the past 3 years, we get business as usual??? Which I bet is worse than we would have gotten under Witt.

Apologist.

--------------------
Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

Posts: 8317 | From: Reading, PA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


Icon 1 posted      Profile for AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr     Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Malruhn:
quote:
Originally posted by Sara at home:
Blame the Governor, blame the Mayor we hear. But what agency is it that is suppose to have coordinated the cities and states and made sure they were prepared? The Department of Homeland Security. They failed. FEMA failed. And the man in charge has to take the responsibility. Their failure is his failure.

*Tires screeching to a halt*

Hold on a minute!!

What agency is supposed to make sure the cities are ready for a disaster? THE MAYOR'S OFFICE!!

What agency is supposed to make sure that the state is ready for a disaster? THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE!!!

Sorry, as I work in an agency that does emergency preparedness and disaster preparedness, I can say that you are not only off base on this one, you are out of the whole darned ballpark!

We can encourage. We can sternly recommend. We can threaten to threaten. That is as far as the feds can go in emergency planning with the locals.


Not according to FEMA.
quote:
FEMA's continuing mission within the new department is to lead the effort to prepare the nation for all hazards and effectively manage federal response and recovery efforts following any national incident. FEMA also initiates proactive mitigation activities, trains first responders, and manages the National Flood Insurance Program and the U.S. Fire Administration. (source)
Yes, Nagin and Blanco deserve blame for that portion of the disaster plan for which they were responsible and failed to meet.

Remember those documents I had sent to you, the ones where Blanco requested a federal emergency be declared, and then the White House press release granting that request? Remember there were some pretty significant differences in the two. Who was responsible for *that*?

Further, when a federal disaster is declared, FEMA, according to its own website, is then tasked with the management of the response to that disaster. It is what they do.

quote:
Oh, and for planning purposes, this incident worked out as well as many models have shown for similar Incidents of National Signifigance... communications were crappy and got much worse before getting better... coordination was crappy and got worse before getting better...

The 9/11 Commission report recommended improving communications equipment for first responders. As part of its mission, FEMA is supposed to do "proactive mitigation." It may be open to interpretation, but it would seem to me that coordinating communications equipment would fall under that.

quote:
Just like every preparedness drill we do.

And this doesn't make you nervous that we seem to have learned a lot, but have applied none of those lessons learned? You are still making excuses for the feds for this?

quote:
When it comes to regulating the locals, it is impossible due to stuff called "states' rights" and a policy of attempted 'good-will' extended.

Again, please refer to the documents I sent you, FEMA's website, and the text of the Strafford Act, PL 43-288. When a federal emergency/disaster is declared, the response is federalized.

quote:
Okay, that one is shot down - quick! Grab another and send it up the flagpole to be saluted by the "Bush is the root of all evil" crowd.
This argument is horseshit, and you know it, Malruhn.

--------------------
"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

Posts: 19266 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Jason Threadslayer
Let There Be PCs on Earth


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Jason Threadslayer     Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
FEMA: Just the Facts

--------------------
All posts foretold by Nostradamus.

Turing test failures: 6

Posts: 5481 | From: Decatur, GA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
abbubmah
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


Icon 1 posted      Profile for abbubmah   E-mail abbubmah   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
Interesting Jason - reading what they "don't do" vs what they "do", it seems they don't do much besides tell people there's a disaster, tell other people to get hands-on, distribute funds, and provide a significant amount of taxpayer-funded employment for their own agency.

Basically, if you want FEMA to actually do something, they can't.

--------------------
Fundamentally Unfundie since 1975

Posts: 7942 | From: Louisiana | Registered: Jun 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Malruhn
The "Was on Sale" Song


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Malruhn   E-mail Malruhn   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
Thank you Jason. Ole Pappy, that is exactly what FEMA does... make phone calls and write checks.

I don't want anyone to get the idea that FEMA is an innocent child in all this - they really screwed the pooch on this one - BUT, the credit for the amazing response has to start with the folks that actually have the usual jurisdiction... New Orleans and Louisiana.

Sara, the "working with states to make sure..." stuff can very easily explained. To make a VERY crude analogy: I can work with you very closely to ensure you can wipe your butt - however when you sit down next week, it is up to YOU to do the job properly. Who do you blame for skid marks? I would certainly hope that it isn't me!! Same same for emergency preparedness.

We work daily and weekly with companies, as well as state and local officials to get them to do the right thing. After that, it is STILL up to them. HOWEVER, it is up to US to know the locals well enough to know that Duvall county does a good job, but Clay County can't find their collective asses with both hands even after being spotted nine fingers... We, as the local federal responders HAVE to know that.

A good friend is in the Coast Guard in New Orleans (stationed there for two years now). He said that the Orleans Parish Emergency Operations Center relocated prior to the storm. Problem was, the million dollar assault RV that FEMA bought them relocated to Shreveport. The Parish EOC director relocated to Baton Rouge. Part of the staff relocated to Lake Charles. The rest of the staff was out of touch for over a week. And these were the first responders and administrators for the PARISH!! The city was just as bad.

I believe it was Clint Eastwood as Gunny Highway that really popularized the phrase, "Cluster-fuck".

With the disaster preparedness we deal with, we give grants out every year to waterfront facilities, the state and local officials, and we have NO right to TELL them anything. Sorry, it is just something you have to deal with. No, I agree we SHOULD, but we don't.

I will argue that we provide a MUCH better service than we were able to prior to September Eleventh - but not up to where we could or should. The politicos don't allow us to trample on states' rights, so we can't. I don't consider myself to be an apologist.

AnglRdr, the problem with your cite to what FEMA can and can't do is that it doesn't fully describe the near complete lack of CONTROL the feds have over what the states and locals do. Let me excerpt:
---lead the effort to prepare
---effectively manage federal response and recovery efforts
---initiates proactive mitigation activities
---trains first responders
---manages the National Flood Insurance Program and the U.S. Fire Administration

It does not say, "Direct", "Supervise", "Empower", or anything else. I think the best words to use to describe the fed's jobs are, "Cajole", "Weedle", "Train", and "Pray". We do our best to get the locals to see the light - but it is up to them to act. Then we pray that if the fecal matter collides with the atmospheric translocaing device, that either they do the RIGHT thing, or that they don't screw things up so bad that we can't come in and try to make it right afterwards.

It isn't a nice thought, but it is the truth.

I *DO* remember those docs you sent - and I am still unable to figure it out... other than three possibilities:
-1. Incorrect transcription of facts (very highly unlucky)
-2. One or the other reporting parties is lying their ass off (quite likely!)
-3. Total incompetence by one or both (probable reality)

I really DO think that Brown screwed up on this one, but I don't think he deserves it all... or even most. Cities don't have full autonomy - states allegedly do. Blanco should have walked up and said, "Thanks, Mayor, but I'm in charge now!" The feds don't have that luxury.

Yes, the Commission recommended fixing comms - but how much weight does a recommendation hold? Also, when did the report come out, and how fast can the federal government move on stuff like this? Sorry, but I don't have a problem with their "fix-it" speed thus far. I guess I am just jaded after working in Govt for so long...

And the response WAS federalized. (Edited) It was slow as crap - mainly due to Brown, but it WAS federalized.

I also don't see the above as excuse making. It is pure statement of fact.

(Edited to remove completely unwarranted snark, and I apologize if anyone actually read my nasty remark)

--------------------
Opinions aren't excuses to remain ignorant about subjects, nor are they excuses to never examine one's beliefs & prejudices...

Babies are like tattoos. You see other peoples' & they're cool, but yours is never as good & you can't get rid of it.

Posts: 5622 | From: Jax, Florida | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


Icon 1 posted      Profile for AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr     Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Malruhn:

AnglRdr, the problem with your cite to what FEMA can and can't do is that it doesn't fully describe the near complete lack of CONTROL the feds have over what the states and locals do. Let me excerpt:
---lead the effort to prepare
---effectively manage federal response and recovery efforts
---initiates proactive mitigation activities
---trains first responders
---manages the National Flood Insurance Program and the U.S. Fire Administration

It does not say, "Direct", "Supervise", "Empower", or anything else. I think the best words to use to describe the fed's jobs are, "Cajole", "Weedle", "Train", and "Pray". We do our best to get the locals to see the light - but it is up to them to act. Then we pray that if the fecal matter collides with the atmospheric translocaing device, that either they do the RIGHT thing, or that they don't screw things up so bad that we can't come in and try to make it right afterwards.



What, precisely, does manage mean to you, Malruhn? Because, in AnglRdr world, to manage something means to "direct," "empower," "control," "guide," "supervise," and a whole host of other things.

It isn't a nice thought, but it is the truth.

quote:
I really DO think that Brown screwed up on this one, but I don't think he deserves it all... or even most. Cities don't have full autonomy - states allegedly do. Blanco should have walked up and said, "Thanks, Mayor, but I'm in charge now!" The feds don't have that luxury.

Yeah, but I am pretty sure they do.

That I disagree with you, however, does not mean I hate Bush. My "horseshit" statement was your insistance that those of us who are faulting the adminstration's NFBSKing up of this situation are doing so because we hate Bush.

Get over it, already.

quote:
Yes, the Commission recommended fixing comms - but how much weight does a recommendation hold? Also, when did the report come out, and how fast can the federal government move on stuff like this? Sorry, but I don't have a problem with their "fix-it" speed thus far. I guess I am just jaded after working in Govt for so long...

Considering the importance this administration claims puts on Homeland Security, one would think they would've gotten right on that one.

quote:
And the response WAS federalized. Sorry we didn't act according to the timeline established by the Federal Laws of AnglRdr.

It was federalized the Friday before the hurricane struck. That was fine. The issue was that it took weeks before any relief was received in many locales, particularly those rural, isolated areas in Mississippi.

But I see you're not saying anything about Mississippi...It's not because you are a republican apologist, is it? (See what horseshit that argument is? It is beneath us all.)

quote:
I also don't see the above as excuse making. It is pure statement of fact.
Except that it is not "fact;" it is "opinion," and you are welcome to it, but you are making a fair amount of excuses.

--------------------
"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

Posts: 19266 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Steve Eisenberg
The "Was on Sale" Song


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Steve Eisenberg   E-mail Steve Eisenberg   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sara at home:
What was all the "working with the states to make sure every American is safe" stuff that we've been hearing for the past 3 years, then?

Beats me. Googling the phrase:

"make sure every American is safe"

I get three hits, none a quotation from a real-life politician.

Although the Superdome turns out to have been a reasonably safe place to go, there is no absolute safety.

--------------------
"Hillel says yes, naturally, and Shammai says no, and Maimonides is perplexed, and what do I know?"
Julius Lester

Posts: 5780 | From: Suburban Philadelphia, Pennsylvania | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Steve Eisenberg
The "Was on Sale" Song


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Steve Eisenberg   E-mail Steve Eisenberg   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by AnglRdr:
The issue was that it took weeks before any relief was received in many locales, particularly those rural, isolated areas in Mississippi.

Because of the previous false claims made concerning how the poor fared in New Orleans, I am unsure how to react to this. It sounds plausible, but so much we have been told about government and the hurricane has turned out to be wrong.

I know that the Bush administration has acknowledged that the relief effort was lacking. But given the scale of the hurricane, I am unsure that it could reasonably have been enormously better*. I think the Bush administtration may be like the innocent person, detained by the police, who is browbeaten into confessing to a crime not committed.

Do you have any evidence (preferably, objective autopsy results) that people in these towns died of starvation or dehydration while they were waiting these several weeks? If not, perhaps it is just a case of places with the greatest need having a higher priorty.

This is not "making excuses." An administation planning to once again locate Louisiana's poor in below-sea-level danger hardly has my support. But on this board we should be facing up to the large outbreak of hurricane UL's.

_____________________________
* Of course, moderate improvement is always possible in any large scale effort involving people.

--------------------
"Hillel says yes, naturally, and Shammai says no, and Maimonides is perplexed, and what do I know?"
Julius Lester

Posts: 5780 | From: Suburban Philadelphia, Pennsylvania | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Astra
The "Was on Sale" Song


Icon 87 posted      Profile for Astra     Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Eisenberg:
quote:
Originally posted by AnglRdr:
The issue was that it took weeks before any relief was received in many locales, particularly those rural, isolated areas in Mississippi.

Because of the previous false claims made concerning how the poor fared in New Orleans, I am unsure how to react to this. It sounds plausible, but so much we have been told about government and the hurricane has turned out to be wrong.
Steve, I'm IN Mississippi. It is true. There are places where power is still off or unreliable and debris is still being cleaned up. Phone lines and cable are still out all over the place. My parents' just got power last week and had phone service for a couple of days before it went back down again. Bogalusa, Louisiana is a small town that hadn't received any help until just last week. FEMA is just now setting up offices in places other than the coastal counties, even though damage extended far inland. Once you get away from the larger towns, there is still a LOT of damage and a lot of people still struggling.

--------------------
This has been yet another... USELESS POST.

Posts: 6105 | From: Mississippi | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Sara at home   E-mail Sara at home   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
Steve, you're measuring by deaths. I'm measuring by preparedness and suffering. Since we are using different measurements, we will never come to any common ground.

--------------------
Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

Posts: 8317 | From: Reading, PA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


Icon 1 posted      Profile for AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr     Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
Here ya go, Steve. This is but one example.

Please let me know if you need more.

--------------------
"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

Posts: 19266 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Steve Eisenberg
The "Was on Sale" Song


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Steve Eisenberg   E-mail Steve Eisenberg   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Astra:
Steve, I'm IN Mississippi. It is true. There are places where power is still off or unreliable and debris is still being cleaned up. Phone lines and cable are still out all over the place. My parents' just got power last week and had phone service for a couple of days before it went back down again. Bogalusa, Louisiana is a small town that hadn't received any help until just last week. FEMA is just now setting up offices in places other than the coastal counties, even though damage extended far inland. Once you get away from the larger towns, there is still a LOT of damage and a lot of people still struggling.

I don't doubt it. This is the second worst natural disaster ever to hit your state (after Camille), if I am not mistaken, and, in some ways, it's even worse (Katrina was weaker but bigger).

On the one hand, there is the real Katrina, which was severe and still has severe effects. And you are in the worst hit state.

On the other hand, for better or worse -- mostly ,I think, worse -- there's the snopes message board Katrina, which is a blame game.

As far as the blame game is concerned, I don't see how the government can or should restore your area's power and telephone service. This is up to the utilities, and, with such widespread devastation, it can't be fixed in days. Also, by the Bush-bashing standard set for suffering in the early New Orleans threads -- mass death by thirst, hunger, disease, and human violence -- Mississippi's human toll is not quite going to measure up. But it is more than bad enough. When you need help and it isn't there yet, it understandably can't ever come fast enough.

--------------------
"Hillel says yes, naturally, and Shammai says no, and Maimonides is perplexed, and what do I know?"
Julius Lester

Posts: 5780 | From: Suburban Philadelphia, Pennsylvania | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


Icon 1 posted      Profile for AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr     Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
That's right, Steve, we're all just "blame-gaming!"

Glad to see you got your talking points down.

--------------------
"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

Posts: 19266 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Steve Eisenberg
The "Was on Sale" Song


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Steve Eisenberg   E-mail Steve Eisenberg   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sara at home:
Steve, you're measuring by deaths. I'm measuring by preparedness and suffering. Since we are using different measurements, we will never come to any common ground.

Yes, this is fair. And I don't know how to resolve it.

Let's say that many children in the Superdome went to sleep hungry two or even three nights. I now suspect, given reports of how orderly the Superdome was, that many adults -- who were told to bring food and must have mostly complied -- gave up their food so the small children and elderly could eat. But lets just say that thousands of kids did suffer from constant hunger for two days or so. And we know that everyone was forced to live under the highly unpleasant (and, after a few months, dangerous) sanitation standards of a medieval slum. Well, I guess that you would say this is unacceptable in America, even for a couple days, and I certainly would agree that it is a good thing to avoid. But I would think a couple of days of this was really no lasting harm, and how fortunate those children are compared to those in Sudan or North Korea.

I do think that those who claimed Bush was killing the poor with incompetence should be changing their tune. If your claim of suffering was based on hunger, I think we will just have to wait a few weeks or months for more detailed accounts. If your claim is that lack of porcelain for four days equates to suffering, that certainly is reasonable, but, if I said it, I would think I was demeaning the real suffering that goes on in this world.

--------------------
"Hillel says yes, naturally, and Shammai says no, and Maimonides is perplexed, and what do I know?"
Julius Lester

Posts: 5780 | From: Suburban Philadelphia, Pennsylvania | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
EthanMitchell
Deck the Malls


Icon 1 posted      Profile for EthanMitchell   E-mail EthanMitchell   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
All the way back in the OP, Steve wrote:

"There are many parallels, including the false perception that the city was in a state of anarchy requiring military action by battle-hardened troops"

I think we can go a step farther than that. The fictitiousness of the widespread-violence rumor, in the context of many disasters, tells us something about our perceptions. In fact, large portions of New Orleans, like San Fransisco, were in a state of anarchy, without question. They were also in a state of crisis, and so it is difficult to attribute people's behaviors (e.g. looting, selfless rescue efforts) to one or the other. But we almost all find it easy to believe that people who are in a state of anarchy-and-crisis will succumb to some innate human tendency towards rape and murder sprees. Apparently this is not true.

Oh, and what is a "blame game?" Does it have something to do with causality, or what is it?

Posts: 330 | From: New Haven, VT | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Sara at home   E-mail Sara at home   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
Sorry Steve, I guess I should have said working-with-the-states-to-make-sure-every-American-is-safe rather than "working with the states to make sure every American is safe". When all else fails, go literal.

--------------------
Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

Posts: 8317 | From: Reading, PA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Sara at home   E-mail Sara at home   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
My claim of incompetence is based on the performance of the administration of the agency that was suppose to be prepared to handle disasters. Spin it any way you want, Steve -- not enough deaths, not hungry long enough, no long term health damage whatever for you to rationalize FEMA's response as not-so-bad Fact is, their response sucked and even your boy George said so. And the buck stops there.

--------------------
Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

Posts: 8317 | From: Reading, PA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Steve Eisenberg
The "Was on Sale" Song


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Steve Eisenberg   E-mail Steve Eisenberg   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sara at home:
Sorry Steve, I guess I should have said working-with-the-states-to-make-sure-every-American-is-safe rather than "working with the states to make sure every American is safe". When all else fails, go literal.

The part I googled:

"make sure every American is safe"

is unchanged and still not something I can find anyone high up in either party saying.

I just tried reducing it to the phrase:

"every American is safe"

and came up with 29 hits. Turns out that Cheney was quoted in a satire as supposedly using this foolish phrase, but, of course, he didn't. Bill Clinton did use the phrase once in reference to gun violence, which just goes to show that even a presidential speech writer can write something foolishly utopian. As I said before, safety cannot be absolute.

--------------------
"Hillel says yes, naturally, and Shammai says no, and Maimonides is perplexed, and what do I know?"
Julius Lester

Posts: 5780 | From: Suburban Philadelphia, Pennsylvania | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Sara at home   E-mail Sara at home   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
My god, Steve, Bush ran the whole damn campaign on the claim that only he could keep us safe. I certainly expected a better response to a disaster. Or maybe they thought because they collected all those tweezers from post menopausal women that we were safe and no disaster will befall us, so why bother putting someone qualified at the head of FEMA.

(Sorry I don't have the exact phrase, our side doesn't circulate, memorize, or mouth the talking points the way your side does......mostly because we think too much on our own to follow them and no one can tell us what to do, anyway. Part of our charm. Man, for someone who is supporting these guys who play so fast and loose with the truth, who twist and spin everything, you sure are literal about my words.)

--------------------
Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

Posts: 8317 | From: Reading, PA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Malruhn
The "Was on Sale" Song


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Malruhn   E-mail Malruhn   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
AnglRdr, you weren't supposed to see that nasty comment I made. I posted and immediately hit *edit*... you were too quick for me.

I am sorry it came out, I am sorry you read it.
__________________________

Okay, let's look at it differently.

"Manage"

FEMA is like an orchestra conductor. Who do you blame when the oboes sound like crap? Sure, the conductor works with them and workd with them, but when the option to fire them or play the instruments himself is not there, what do you do?

Especially when there is a mandated concert date.

--------------------
Opinions aren't excuses to remain ignorant about subjects, nor are they excuses to never examine one's beliefs & prejudices...

Babies are like tattoos. You see other peoples' & they're cool, but yours is never as good & you can't get rid of it.

Posts: 5622 | From: Jax, Florida | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


Icon 1 posted      Profile for AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr     Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Malruhn:
AnglRdr, you weren't supposed to see that nasty comment I made. I posted and immediately hit *edit*... you were too quick for me.

I am sorry it came out, I am sorry you read it.
__________________________


It wasn't *that* bad, but thanks for the apology.

quote:
Okay, let's look at it differently.

"Manage"

FEMA is like an orchestra conductor. Who do you blame when the oboes sound like crap? Sure, the conductor works with them and workd with them, but when the option to fire them or play the instruments himself is not there, what do you do?

Especially when there is a mandated concert date.

Who gets fired from the basketball team when it is on a losing streak, the 7'4" center, or the coach?

It's all about where the buck stops, Malruhn, and I think we have a fundamental difference of opinions on what the Federal government's role is in disasters. I think "manage" means something apparantly different than you think it means.

--------------------
"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

Posts: 19266 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Sara at home   E-mail Sara at home   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by AnglRdr:
Who gets fired from the basketball team when it is on a losing streak, the 7'4" center, or the coach?

The coach. And sometimes the general manager. Occassionally there is a call for the owner to sell the team because of his inability or unwillingness to do what it takes.

--------------------
Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

Posts: 8317 | From: Reading, PA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
oprockwell
The Red and the Green Stamps


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
Folklore: Hurricane Katrina was the worst natural disaster in the country's history

Fact: Hurricane Katrina is the seventh worst natural disaster in US history.

http://www.kplctv.com/Global/story.asp?S=3853481&nav=0nqx


Folklore: Ray Nagin said on September 5th on the Oprah Show, "They're murdering people in there (the Superdome)."
(VIDEO HERE)http://www.oprah.com/video/200509/tows/tows_20050906_1.jhtml

Fact: Both sources (Louisiana National Guard and State health department officials) said no one had been murdered inside the stadium.

One victim was found in the Superdome but was believed to have been brought there, and one was found at the Convention Center, he added.

Folklore: Ray Nagin said on September 5th on the Oprah Show, "They're raping people in there (the Superdome)." (see above Oprah-Nagin video clip)

Fact: The vast majority of reported atrocities committed by evacuees — mass murders, rapes and beatings — have turned out to be false, or at least unsupported by any evidence.

Folklore: "There are Babies dying!" cried Nagin... "The children!" screamed Oprah. (see Oprah-Nagin video clip)

Fact: There are no known babies that died in the Superdome.

Folklore: Babies stuffed in freezers.

Fact: Nope.

Folklore: Katrina cannibalism. "Black hurricane victims in New Orleans have begun eating corpses to survive."

Fact: Nope.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/randall-robinson/new-orleans_b_6643.html

Folklore: 30-40 Bodies stuffed inside a freezer at Convention Center.

Fact: Nope.

Folklore: I've got a report there are bodies stacked in the basement of the Superdome. (FEMA doctor)

Fact: National Guard officials put the body count at the Superdome at six, saying the other four bodies came from the area around the stadium.

Six... Of those, four died of natural causes, one overdosed and another jumped to his death in an apparent suicide.

Of the 841 (885 9-27) recorded hurricane-related deaths in Louisiana, four are identified as gunshot victims, Johannessen said.

Folklore: Mayor Nagin on the Today Show, "It wouldn't be unreasonable to have 10,000..." (VIDEO HERE)

Facts: There have been 885 deaths in Louisiana attributed to Hurricane Katrina:

701 are at the makeshift morgue in St. Gabriel

Parish Coroners:

Ascension -- 5
Assumption -- 2
East Baton Rouge – 72
Iberia – 6
Jefferson – 30
Lafourche -- 2
Livingston -- 5
Plaquemines -- 3
St. Charles – 8
St. Tammany – 7
Tangipahoa -- 26
Terrebonne -- 15
West Baton Rouge – 3

Most of the dead from Katrina have been sent to the makeshift morgue in St. Gabriel, Louisiana a town of 5,500, 15 miles south of Baton Rouge.

Folklore: They all drowned!

Fact: Any death that is determined to have been caused as a result of Hurricane Katrina will be counted as a hurricane-related death. For example, this applies to people who drowned as well as people who required life-support but had it cut off and died as a result when power was lost during the storm.

Folklore: Many foreigners perished (96 British citizens are unaccounted for!)

Fact: Only one foreigner was killed in the hurricane, a British woman.

Folklore: The levee was blown up to destroy the black part of town.

Fact:

Folklore: The federal government was slow to respond.

Fact: "The federal government pretty much met its standard time lines, but the volume of support provided during the 72-96 hour was unprecedented. The federal response here was faster than Hugo, faster than Andrew, faster than Iniki, faster than Francine and Jeanne."

For instance, it took five days for National Guard troops to arrive in strength on the scene in Homestead, Fla. after Hurricane Andrew hit in 2002. But after Katrina, there was a significant National Guard presence in the afflicted region in three.

there is a fringe that complains of the arrogance of this administration, it's inability to acknowledge wrongdoing at any level, and its comtempt for the part of america that did not vote for him. This same fringe jumps at any chance to take any urban legend, any shade of bad news, any natural event and blame one person for that event. This fringe has never and will never acknowlege that anything good has ever come from this administration.

Dont cloud the issue with facts. Facts get in the way of hatred.

IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Sara at home   E-mail Sara at home   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by oprockwell:
there is a fringe that complains of the arrogance of this administration, it's inability to acknowledge wrongdoing at any level, and its comtempt for the part of america that did not vote for him. This same fringe jumps at any chance to take any urban legend, any shade of bad news, any natural event and blame one person for that event. This fringe has never and will never acknowlege that anything good has ever come from this administration.

Dont cloud the issue with facts. Facts get in the way of hatred.

You must be listening to those conservatives who like to go on about what liberals think. You certainly aren't getting your info from any liberals I know because I don't know one who isn't aware of everything you posted.

I won't bother posting yet again why liberals don't like Bush. You know what you know and don't care what real life liberals have to say about what they believe.

--------------------
Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

Posts: 8317 | From: Reading, PA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Astra
The "Was on Sale" Song


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Astra     Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
oprockwell, don't complain about people not believing "facts" when only two of your supposed "facts" have any kind of backing material presented at all. Of all the boards to do that on, this is probably the worst one to try it on.

--------------------
This has been yet another... USELESS POST.

Posts: 6105 | From: Mississippi | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
oprockwell
The Red and the Green Stamps


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
I won't bother posting yet again why liberals don't like Bush. You know what you know and don't care what real life liberals have to say about what they believe. [/QB][/QUOTE]

You are just assuming that you know if I am a lib or conservative. I am responding to the loathing that comes out of nearly every one of your keystrokes

IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Sara at home   E-mail Sara at home   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by oprockwell:
You are just assuming that you know if I am a lib or conservative. I am responding to the loathing that comes out of nearly every one of your keystrokes

If you were around for a while, and if you actually read and understood the my posts, you would know why I personally hate, loath, despise, whatever word you want, George W. Bush. You would also know that I had no reason to respect him prior to his becoming president and I certainly have no reason to respect him since he became president. My feelings are based on his personal and professional history and not anything that Michael Moore said nor any urban legends. What he has done as President only confirmed my pre-election opinion of him. Don't try to tell me why I hate the guy, I know why I hate the guy.

I am a normal liberal. I assume you aren't because you don't seem to know any of that. Correct me if I'm wrong and I will apologize for implying you are not a liberal. (I didn't say you were a conservative, only that you were getting your info from conservatives. I certainly did imply that you were not a liberal and actually stated that I don't think you are in this post).

ETA clarification.

--------------------
Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

Posts: 8317 | From: Reading, PA | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
oprockwell
The Red and the Green Stamps


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Astra:
oprockwell, don't complain about people not believing "facts" when only two of your supposed "facts" have any kind of backing material presented at all. Of all the boards to do that on, this is probably the worst one to try it on.

Folklore: Hurricane Katrina was the worst natural disaster in the country's history

Fact: Hurricane Katrina is the seventh worst natural disaster in US history.

http://www.kplctv.com/Global/story.asp?S=3853481&nav=0nqx


Folklore: Ray Nagin said on September 5th on the Oprah Show, "They're murdering people in there (the Superdome)."
(VIDEO HERE)http://www.oprah.com/video/200509/tows/tows_20050906_1.jhtml

Fact: Both sources (Louisiana National Guard and State health department officials) said no one had been murdered inside the stadium.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002520986_katmyth26.html


One victim was found in the Superdome but was believed to have been brought there, and one was found at the Convention Center, he added.

Folklore: Ray Nagin said on September 5th on the Oprah Show, "They're raping people in there (the Superdome)." (see above Oprah-Nagin video clip)

Fact: The vast majority of reported atrocities committed by evacuees — mass murders, rapes and beatings — have turned out to be false, or at least unsupported by any evidence.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002520986_katmyth26.html

Folklore: "There are Babies dying!" cried Nagin... "The children!" screamed Oprah. (see Oprah-Nagin video clip)

Fact: There are no known babies that died in the Superdome.

Folklore: Babies stuffed in freezers.

Fact: Nope.

Folklore: Katrina cannibalism. "Black hurricane victims in New Orleans have begun eating corpses to survive."

Fact: Nope.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/randall-robinson/new-orleans_b_6643.html

Folklore: 30-40 Bodies stuffed inside a freezer at Convention Center.

Fact: Nope.

http://www.nola.com/newslogs/tporleans/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_tporleans/archives/2005_09_26.html#082732

Folklore: I've got a report there are bodies stacked in the basement of the Superdome. (FEMA doctor)

Fact: National Guard officials put the body count at the Superdome at six, saying the other four bodies came from the area around the stadium.

Six... Of those, four died of natural causes, one overdosed and another jumped to his death in an apparent suicide.

Of the 841 (885 9-27) recorded hurricane-related deaths in Louisiana, four are identified as gunshot victims, Johannessen said.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002520986_katmyth26.html

Folklore: Mayor Nagin on the Today Show, "It wouldn't be unreasonable to have 10,000..."


Facts: There have been 885 deaths in Louisiana attributed to Hurricane Katrina:

701 are at the makeshift morgue in St. Gabriel

Parish Coroners:

Ascension -- 5
Assumption -- 2
East Baton Rouge – 72
Iberia – 6
Jefferson – 30
Lafourche -- 2
Livingston -- 5
Plaquemines -- 3
St. Charles – 8
St. Tammany – 7
Tangipahoa -- 26
Terrebonne -- 15
West Baton Rouge – 3

Most of the dead from Katrina have been sent to the makeshift morgue in St. Gabriel, Louisiana a town of 5,500, 15 miles south of Baton Rouge.

Folklore: They all drowned!

Fact: Any death that is determined to have been caused as a result of Hurricane Katrina will be counted as a hurricane-related death. For example, this applies to people who drowned as well as people who required life-support but had it cut off and died as a result when power was lost during the storm.

http://www.dhh.louisiana.gov/offices/news.asp?ID=145&Detail=669

Folklore: Many foreigners perished (96 British citizens are unaccounted for!)

Fact: Only one foreigner was killed in the hurricane, a British woman.

http://www.optusnet.com.au/news/story/abc/20050922/09/international/1465804.inp

Folklore: The levee was blown up to destroy the black part of town.

Fact: this one I guess I have to leave up to a tinfoil hat committee.

Folklore: The federal government was slow to respond.

Fact: "The federal government pretty much met its standard time lines, but the volume of support provided during the 72-96 hour was unprecedented. The federal response here was faster than Hugo, faster than Andrew, faster than Iniki, faster than Francine and Jeanne."

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05254/568876.stm


Astra,

heres the follow up.

its a fair cop. Two "facts" (and "facts" are certainly arguable. the folklore were "facts" until contradicted by the same newmedia who created the folklore) do not a solid argument make. Your point is well taken.

oprockwell

IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
bufungla
Let There Be PCs on Earth


Icon 22 posted      Profile for bufungla   Author's Homepage   E-mail bufungla   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by oprockwell:
Folklore: 30-40 Bodies stuffed inside a freezer at Convention Center.

Fact: Nope.

formerly long nola link

Folklore: I've got a report there are bodies stacked in the basement of the Superdome. (FEMA doctor)

Fact: National Guard officials put the body count at the Superdome at six, saying the other four bodies came from the area around the stadium.

Six... Of those, four died of natural causes, one overdosed and another jumped to his death in an apparent suicide.

Of the 841 (885 9-27) recorded hurricane-related deaths in Louisiana, four are identified as gunshot victims, Johannessen said.

formerly longish Seattle Times link


1) oprockwell, thanks for the cites

2) Could you please edit them so they don't screw up the screen layout? You can embed URLs in UBB code via the URL button , towit: short nola link and short Seattle Times link I'd like to read more of this thread, but quite frankly, it's a chore, given that the page is now so wide.

3) I will definitely ask a friend of mine about those numbers, as he spent a good part of last weekend telling me about all the bodies he was hauling out of the Superdome.

buf 'remembering the difference between a fairy tale and a war story [Wink] ' ungla

--------------------
"Pardon him. Theodotus: he is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature."

George Bernard Shaw, Caesar and Cleopatra

Posts: 4847 | From: Washington, DC | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
oprockwell
The Red and the Green Stamps


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by bufungla:
quote:
Originally posted by oprockwell:
Folklore: 30-40 Bodies stuffed inside a freezer at Convention Center.

Fact: Nope.

http://www.nola.com/newslogs/tporleans/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_tporleans/archives/2005_09_26.html#082732

Folklore: I've got a report there are bodies stacked in the basement of the Superdome. (FEMA doctor)

Fact: National Guard officials put the body count at the Superdome at six, saying the other four bodies came from the area around the stadium.

Six... Of those, four died of natural causes, one overdosed and another jumped to his death in an apparent suicide.

Of the 841 (885 9-27) recorded hurricane-related deaths in Louisiana, four are identified as gunshot victims, Johannessen said.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002520986_katmyth26.html

1) oprockwell, thanks for the cites

2) Could you please edit them so they don't screw up the screen layout? You can embed URLs in UBB code via the URL button , towit: short nola link and short Seattle Times link I'd like to read more of this thread, but quite frankly, it's a chore, given that the page is now so wide.

3) I will definitely ask a friend of mine about those numbers, as he spent a good part of last weekend telling me about all the bodies he was hauling out of the Superdome.

buf 'remembering the difference between a fairy tale and a war story [Wink] ' ungla

i will sure try to not screw up the page.

But there sure are alot of buttons on this key board. We luddites are happy to get the CAPS on and off at the right time!!

oprockwell

IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
  This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.

Instant Graemlins
   


Post new topic  Post a reply Close topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Urban Legends Reference Pages

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2