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Author Topic: UK Daily Mail - NO Doctors: We had to kill our patients
trollface
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Eisenberg:
If my aim was to win a snopes popularity contest, this would be correct.

The point is not popularity, but being seen as an intelligent, reasonable and informed poster, as opposed to one who cares more about their sources of information reflecting and reenforcing their viewpoint than they do about them being accurate.

quote:
Since that is not my aim: I don't think the Daily Mail is a good newspaper, but their writers deserve to be judged as individuals, not condemned through guilt by association.
While what you say has some merit, you choose who you write for. By nailing her flag to that mast, Ms. Phillips has said that she endorses the paper and its viewpoints.

quote:
Two possibilities here, both unfortunate:

1. You really do believe in visiting the crimes of the parents on the children.

2. You think I believe in visiting the crimes of the parents on the children, and thus would buy an argument along those lines. I do not.

Historical context. The point being that the editorial stance from that era hasn't changed all that much in the intervening years. It's important in understanding its stance now to look at where it came from and how it got to where it is today.

quote:
While in bad taste, this dressing up in costume was not indicative of a desire to bring back the Third Reich.
I didn't say that it was, but it is indicative of where their mindset is at.

quote:
My relatives who died in the holocaust did not die a second death from the Holocaust Memorial Day controversy. If you showed that the Daily Mail favors a resumption of the holocaust (and the only plausible way I can see this happenning is Israeli capitulation), that, I admit, would shake me.
I forgot to add that they opposed and ridiculed him for his work to get victims and victims' families restitution, too.

quote:
[qb]Melanie Phillips herself has written anti-Islamic peices in the paper, and has spoken in favour of racial segregation, particularly in schools.

[quote]If you are going to try tearing her down with charges of having low moral standards, being pro-segregation, etc., it would be more fair to link to the articles that lead you to these conclusions.

Well, here's one where she manages to pooh-pooh the idea of Islam as a peaceful religion (and insinuating that it is to blame for terrorism) and lament the idea of "multiculturalism", particularly at a school level.

quote:
Item after item on radio and television has dwelt upon the need to avoid blaming Muslims for what happened, rather than addressing the hard questions to the community that cry out to be asked.

In doing so, it has been taking its cue from the Muslim community itself which seems to be in the deepest denial. Yes, it has certainly condemned the atrocity in the strongest terms. But in the very next breath, its leaders have effectively washed their hands of it by repeating like a mantra that anyone claiming to be a Muslim who commits such an act is not a proper Muslim, because Islam is a religion of peace.

[...]

This moral inversion is the result of the cultural brainwashing that has been going on in Britain for years in the pursuit of the disastrous doctrine of multiculturalism. This has refused to teach Muslims — along with other minorities — the core of British culture and values. Instead, it has promoted a lethally divisive culture of separateness, in which minority cultures are held to be equal if not superior to the values and traditions of the indigenous majority.

[...]

When Ray Honeyford, the Bradford headmaster, warned strongly against multiculturalism in the schools in the eighties, he was branded a racist and hounded from his job. Now those Yorkshire chickens have lethally come home to roost.

There you go, the reason London was bombed was that minorities were allowed to intigrate into British culture, without having our superior values stamped on to them. I might just have to stand up and start singing the national anthem.

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seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears.

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Birtha
A Boy Named Subaru


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quote:
Originally posted by aranea russus:
According to this site , there is no hospital in Abita Springs.

quote:
Hospitals/medical centers near Abita Springs:

* LAKEVIEW REGIONAL MEDICAL CENTER (about 5 miles; COVINGTON, LA)
* PREMIER PHYSICAL REHABILITATION HOSPIT (about 5 miles; COVINGTON, LA)
* ST TAMMANY PARISH HOSPITAL (about 5 miles; COVINGTON, LA)

And this BBC News Article describes a woman searching for a william forest mcqueen in arbita springs, but his job description is very different

quote:

Mother-of-two Suzanne McQueen, of Maidstone, Kent, is waiting for news of her American husband (William) Forest McQueen.

He has been working in his home country since 1997, and lives and works with his brother in the Abita Springs area, north of Lake Pontchartrain, which is north of New Orleans.

The couple married in the UK in 1991, and Suzanne said she and her daughters - aged 11 and 13 - were planning to move to the US to join her husband as soon as was possible.

Mr McQueen's wife has had no news from his friends and family
Part of his job there is to maintain the grounds of an old plantation house, she said.

"I phoned the morning the hurricane hit, and his brother said Forest hadn't been home for the last 24 hours because he'd been on shift clearing up trees and lines from all the wind damage that came before the hurricane. I haven't heard anything since.

"I've been going through a list of phone numbers for friends and family in the area and can't get through to anyone.

"Up until yesterday or the day before I thought everything would be okay and that they hadn't been in touch because the power was down. But I've since seen more information about the amount of wind destruction there.

"I am getting very concerned. I am trying to contact people from work so the girls don't know how worried I am."

Coincidence?

(edit for clarity)

Is what coincidence?????
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Christie
The Bills of St. Mary's


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I saw that article as well and wondered if someone had gotten the name from it. Although I can't begin to imagine why they would do that. It does seem like it's an unusual enough name (William Forrest MacQueen) that if the original story were true it would not be difficult to find mention of him somewhere.

--------------------
If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr

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Simon Says
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by Ghost on Toast:
But back to the OP, are there any medical Snopesters on here because I have had a conversation with a doctor before who basically said that sometimes patients who are dying and in pain are given a little higher dosage to help them on their way.

Now I don't know if he meant extra morphine to actually kill them but that s what it sounded like and the way he was talking was as if it was standard practice. I'm not sure what to think.

I do not have a medical degree, but I work for a hospice in the administrative office. So, I would consider myself a medical snopester. [Smile]

I can tell you positively that what the doctor said (if, like you said, he was talking about administering a lethal dose) is not considered ethical (or common) in the medical community. That is considered passive euthanasia. Now... that being said... it is common for people in the end stages of a disease to require higher than normal doses of pain medication. They are going through more pain and so can tolerate higher dosages.

A recent study by the National Hospice and Palliative Care Organization (NHPCO) shows that hospice patients, on average, live longer than those with the same diagnosis who do not elect hospice care. (A link to the study is in this blog.)

Now, if by "help them along" he meant "make them comfortable until they die naturally" then yes. But if he meant that he keeps his patients gorked out on morphine until they are dead, that is unethical, and hopefully, not any more common in his medical community than it is in mine.

Sometimes doctors talk out of their asses too when they don't know what they are talking about. [Roll Eyes] And, unfortunately, not all doctors know that much about hospice. I would guess the doctor that made that comment does not make many referrals to hospice, that he instead just handles his patients until the end. That's a shame.

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Steve Eisenberg
The "Was on Sale" Song


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quote:
Originally posted by trollface:
I forgot to add that they opposed and ridiculed him for his work to get victims and victims' families restitution, too.



Suppose a family was given a home by the East German government in 1950. Then for 40 years that family improved the house (or part of a house), keeping it in sterling condition despite great difficulty in obtaining building supplies? Is it right for the rich grandchildren of those who owned the house until 1935 to take it from those with such sweat equity? This is a legitimate moral issue that has been debated in Jewish publications, albeit with some trepidation due to the risk that true Jew-haters would seize upon the arguments for their purposes.

Rather than asking what the Daily Mail position in on symbolically opposing mass killings of the past, I would look at what their position has been more recently on the likes Pol Pot, Saddam, Rwanda, and the Khartoum regime, as well as how they view those who have tried unsuccessfully to push the Jews of Palestine into the sea. Now, maybe I would find that they are wrong side of some of these horrors, as I do not follow their editorial stance. However, these are the questions to ask, not whether they find humorous what I don't, or whether they support taking away the property of Germans who were mostly too young to have anything to do with the holocaust.

quote:
There you go, the reason London was bombed was that minorities were allowed to intigrate into British culture, without having our superior values stamped on to them.
Well, there were some things in Phillips' article, in regard to limiting freedom of speech, to which I would take great exception to if proposed for the US. However, I agree that think there are superior British values that should be insisted upon in schools. Coming from which realize is a tremendously flag-waving country, it is admittedly easy for me to say that.

--------------------
"Hillel says yes, naturally, and Shammai says no, and Maimonides is perplexed, and what do I know?"
Julius Lester

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Archie2K
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The reason that I can't stomach the Daily Mail but am OK with the Torygraph or Grauniad is that the latter two at least don't report the news in an intentionally misleading way. It is tremendously biased certainly, but not misleading. There is a fine line. Examples from the mail;

£20,000 FOR POLICE OFFICER SPLASHED BY A PUDDLE
Real story: The total cost in wages and court fees for a frivilous trial involving a police officer splashed by a puddle was around £20,000.

LORD DIRT: LORD BIRT HAS BECOME A SHAREHOLDER IN A COMPANY THAT HELPS PAEDOPHILE WEBSITES
Real story: Lord Birt had bought a stake in PayPal

Then there is the fact that EVERYTHING and EVERYTHING is Blair's or Labour's fault.

However, my own qualms aside, this doesn't detract from the fact that the Daily Mail has to abide by the laws of libel too and so stories must have at least some basis of fact to them.

--------------------
Vox populi vox canem

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trollface
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Eisenberg:
Suppose a family was given a home by the East German government in 1950. Then for 40 years that family improved the house (or part of a house), keeping it in sterling condition despite great difficulty in obtaining building supplies?

What has that got to do with it? We're talking about financial restitution.

quote:
Rather than asking what the Daily Mail position in on symbolically opposing mass killings of the past, I would look at what their position has been more recently on the likes Pol Pot[...]
I'm not going to speak to the others, but I can definately say that Pol Pot wasn't on their good books - he was a follower of Marx, apparently, and therefore, like all Marxists, evil. This was in the same article where they mentioned that Labour contained Marxists, I believe.

Saddam, I believe, they hate now. But they loved him in the 80s. Essentially, they'll tow the extremist right-wing line. Which is why anyone who says that they have an affinity for the Daily Mail will be assumed to be a right-wing extremist.

quote:
Well, there were some things in Phillips' article, in regard to limiting freedom of speech, to which I would take great exception to if proposed for the US. However, I agree that think there are superior British values that should be insisted upon in schools.
She calls multiculturalism "brainwashing". She says that the "core" of British culture is superior to that of minorities, and bemoans the fact that the brainwashing of multiculturalism has lead to the culture of minorities being seen as equal to British culture. And she directly blames the London bombings on multiculturalism.

How can you not see that there's quite an element of xenophobia there? Of racism? Of religious intolerance?

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seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears.

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aranea russus
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by Brthovnatn:
quote:
Originally posted by aranea russus:
Coincidence?

(edit for clarity)

Is what coincidence?????
Sorry I wasn't quite clear, I was saying is it a coincidence that there's both the William Forest McQueen maintenance worker, and the William Forest McQueen the 'emergency official', both who work in Abita Springs.

Either rapid promotion, embellished CV or staggering coincidence are at play.

Plus my first link said there was no hospital in Abita Springs, the nearest was 5 miles away.

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nicky
I Saw Three Shipments


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Its not just the politics that makes me dislike the Daily Mail.

It also trumpets every stupid fad and craze and pseudoscienctific 'discovery' in the same shrill self-righteous tone.

Its worse than the UK tabloids, beacuse at least they are obviously a joke.

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aranea russus
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nnnn yeah.

(whispers: there are people that seriously read the Weekly World News you know)

Anyway, you'll note that, rather than presenting a concise argument strapped with facts, the article offers two opposing opinions:

quote:
Mr McQueen, a utility manager for the town of Abita Springs, half an hour north of New Orleans, told relatives that patients had been 'put down', saying: "They injected them, but nurses stayed with them until they died."
quote:
The doctor, who finally fled her hospital late last week in fear of being murdered by the armed looters, said: "This was not murder, this was compassion. They would have been dead within hours, if not days. We did not put people down.
This would be OK if we were being given witnesses from both sides of the argument, (eg March went off peacefully says police chief, Police brutality spoiled the day says purple haired weirdo) but that's not the case, the two accounts are meant to 'corroborate' each other. So why don't they?

Denied facts, the reader is swept away in a sea of emotion. (Psst this is where we say 'murdering rapist')

And it becomes pretty unclear which hospital we're talking about. Is it one in leafy Abita Springs, where there has been 'little to no damage'?

You'd have thought that looters and rapists roaming hospital corridors looking for drugs (because looter = rapist = drug user) would be news in itself. It seems not.

I found a news story describing looters (not rapists) attempting to get into a childrens hospital.

And another story: "John Matessino, president of the Louisiana Hospital Association, said he had not heard of anyone breaking into the hospitals, but he added that thieves got into the parking garage at one hospital and were stealing car batteries and stereos."

That's pretty far from the wards though...

I say pipo.

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Steve Eisenberg
The "Was on Sale" Song


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quote:
Originally posted by trollface:
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Eisenberg:
Suppose a family was given a home by the East German government in 1950. Then for 40 years that family improved the house (or part of a house), keeping it in sterling condition despite great difficulty in obtaining building supplies?

What has that got to do with it? We're talking about financial restitution.
Well, you may be, but I am afraid some East Germans have had their homes taken away from them.

Because of misuse by holocaust deniers, the author attempted to keep the following copyrighted article, "Holocaust Reparations--A Growing Scandal," off of the internet, but it is still on usenet:

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.israel/msg/b0440008fe7d13e4?&hl=en&q=%22Holocaust+Reparations-A+Growing+Scandal%22

My concern isn't with curing costume party insensitivity, or hitting up the Ukrainians living where my mother's family used to, but with stopping current and new genocides. I don't read the Daily Mail, and do have the impression that it is a generally bad newspaper, but, just going by your description, it may be OK in these areas that really matter.

--------------------
"Hillel says yes, naturally, and Shammai says no, and Maimonides is perplexed, and what do I know?"
Julius Lester

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trollface
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Eisenberg:
Well, you may be, but I am afraid some East Germans have had their homes taken away from them.

But that's not relevent to Dismore being called a "Holocaust bore" for campaigning to get financial restitution for former German and Japanese PoWs.

quote:
I don't read the Daily Mail, and do have the impression that it is a generally bad newspaper, but, just going by your description, it may be OK in these areas that really matter.
I'd say that "not supporting Communist dictators" was a pretty low standard by which to judge morality. Surely not spreading and pandering to prejudice, racism, homophobia and xenophobia are things that also matter?

Besides, they love Margaret Thatcher who assisted Pol Pot and is now one of his close friends.

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seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears.

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abigsmurf
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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Don't you know? Everyone hates Margaret thatcher and absolutely no one voted for her...
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trollface
The Bills of St. Mary's


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Well, if the criteria for being acceptable is disliking Pol Pot, then I just wonder what loving one of his close friends and allies does to the equation. I'd say that it's indicative of wanting to make the right noises about Pol Pot (especially if it allows them to get in a dig at Labour and insinuate that Labour are equivalent to mass-murdering dictators), but in substansive terms not actually giving a toss (and that's the most kind assessment).

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seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears.

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Archie2K
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Hey, *I* like Margaret Thatcher!

[fish]

--------------------
Vox populi vox canem

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BlueStar
Happy Holly Days


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Personally, I really really hope they attempt to have a minutes silence for her at sporting events when she dies (and I stress attempt).

If I really can't get my hands on a drum, I'm sure a good chorus of "Ding dong the witch is dead" will do the trick. Follwed by a fox-trot on the cantankerous cows grave.

And no, I don't have any respect for the dead, not when they were margaret thatcher in life, so make no attempt to appeal to the slightest bit of compassion when the glorious day finally comes.

It could be the biggest street party in the North East until Newcastle actually win something. I'm already getting the booze in, she looked a bit peaky last time her vomit-inducing mug infested my television set.

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abigsmurf
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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I have to laugh at the hate Thatcher gets. Even though she got enough votes to win three elections...

People always talk about the bad things: mining strikes, poll tax and Falklands yet they convieniently forget all the good things she does. I can't be arsed to balance them out so just read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Thatcher for the things she did in her term (good and bad)

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BlueStar
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For the South, I'm sure she has her apologists. But I will never forget the distain and contempt she treated the North with. Did she get enough votes to win a wooden spoon in the areas she decimated?

Luckily, it's the fear of a return to the dark, dank Thatcher days which helps keep the Tories an unelectable joke today.

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abigsmurf
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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would you rather have a tory lib dem joint government though? ^_-
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Senior
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quote:
Originally posted by trollface:
Besides, they love Margaret Thatcher who assisted Pol Pot and is now one of his close friends.

You do know that Pol Pot died in 1998, don't you?

--------------------
Ad astra per asparagus.

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trollface
The Bills of St. Mary's


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I'm also aware that Maggie isn't exactly in her right mind these days. That doesn't stop the fact that they were both regular dinner guests of each other after they had both dropped from the political radar.

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seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears.

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Steve Eisenberg
The "Was on Sale" Song


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quote:
Originally posted by trollface:
I'm also aware that Maggie isn't exactly in her right mind these days. That doesn't stop the fact that they were both regular dinner guests of each other after they had both dropped from the political radar.

If this is a joke, I don't get it.

--------------------
"Hillel says yes, naturally, and Shammai says no, and Maimonides is perplexed, and what do I know?"
Julius Lester

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trollface
The Bills of St. Mary's


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No joke.

The point that you've not responded to (and the importnat one, rather than this debate that has sprung up around a trivial side musing), however, is that the Daily Mail spreads hate (in fact one of it's nicknames is "The Daily Hate", from a quote by the founder of that paper, Lord Northcliff, that the mission of the paper was to give people a peice of hate daily). Do you not think it matters whether a paper panders to and reenforces racial, religious, sexual and class-based prejudices?

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seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears.

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Steve Eisenberg
The "Was on Sale" Song


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quote:
Originally posted by trollface:
No joke.

The point that you've not responded to (and the important one, rather than this debate that has sprung up around a trivial side musing), however, is that the Daily Mail spreads hate (in fact one of it's nicknames is "The Daily Hate", from a quote by the founder of that paper, Lord Northcliff, that the mission of the paper was to give people a piece of hate daily). Do you not think it matters whether a paper panders to and re enforces racial, religious, sexual and class-based prejudices?

No joke that Lady Thatcher and Pol Pot "were both regular dinner guests of each other after they had both dropped from the political radar?"

Radar or no radar, Pol Pot was still busy massacring his associate's family during the final year of his life. It would be extremely disturbing, to say the least, for a former prime minister to regularly socialize with such a continuing personification of evil, and a google search fails to support your charges against Lady Thatcher. I thus believe you to be mistaken here.

As for your charges against the Daily Mail, these are far less significant. They amount to claims of insensitivity, not legitimation of a murderer, and on the part of a sensationalist London tabloid rather than a woman who is arguably your nation's most important leader of the past 50 years.

The name Lord Northcliff was new to me. The man may have said all sorts of things not on the Internet. But, for the record, googling the terms:

Lord Northcliff daily hate

doesn't come up with anything relevant to that charge either. On the internet or not, I would be interested in reading, with a citation, the quote you mention "that the mission of the paper was to give people a piece of hate daily."

EDITED: In the previous sentence I am quoting trollface, who is paraphrasing what trollface's sources of information indicate to be the substance of Northcliff's remarks. I thought this was clear, but trollface indicates otherwise in the next post -- thus this clarification.

--------------------
"Hillel says yes, naturally, and Shammai says no, and Maimonides is perplexed, and what do I know?"
Julius Lester

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trollface
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Eisenberg:
It would be extremely disturbing, to say the least, for a former prime minister to regularly socialize with such a continuing personification of evil, and a google search fails to support your charges against Lady Thatcher. I thus believe you to be mistaken here.

You're right, I was mistaken. Not Pol Pot, but Pinochet is who I meant. Which is not much better. This is not to say, however, that Thatcher (and Reagan, come to that) didn't actively support Pol Pot.

quote:
As for your charges against the Daily Mail, these are far less significant. They amount to claims of insensitivity, not legitimation of a murderer, and on the part of a sensationalist London tabloid rather than a woman who is arguably your nation's most important leader of the past 50 years.
Again, you're sidestepping the issue. That the Daily Mail is not a former Prime Minister supporting a murederous dictator doesn't make thier bigotry any less bigoted. If your standard for what is acceptable is "not being a former prime minister that supports a dictator", then you have pretty low standards of what is morally justified and justifiable. The question was whether you think that the pandering to and reenforcement of prejudice is okay, not whether you think it is better than a former prime minister supporting a dictator.

quote:
But, for the record, googling the terms:

Lord Northcliff daily hate

doesn't come up with anything relevant to that charge either.

Are you using a different version of google to me? The first hit I get is the wikipedia entry, which says:

quote:
[...]some left-wingers refer to the paper with nicknames such as the "Daily Wail" and the "Daily Hate". The latter is in part because - according to Polly Toynbee in The Guardian [3] - the Mail's founder, Lord Northcliffe, said his winning formula was to give his readers "a daily hate".
There's even a citation and link there for you.

Incidentally, I didn't say that the way I had worded it was the quote, as you'll notice from my lack of quotation marks. It's dishonest of you to add them and to refer to it as if I had said that that was the quote.

[Edited coz I'm stupid]

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seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears.

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Steve Eisenberg
The "Was on Sale" Song


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quote:
Originally posted by trollface:
You're right, I was mistaken. Not Pol Pot, but Pinochet is who I meant. Which is not much better.



Millions of lives better. And I'd say this as quickly about Castro if he were described as not much better than Pol Pot. However, as cruel dictators go, Pinochet was preferable to Castro is because Pinochet allowed considerable economic freedom and helped put Chile on a road where it was likely to move to democracy in the future, whereas Castro, without committing mass murder, tries to keep all power to himself. Then there is the foreign policy assistance Pinochet gave Britain in time of crisis, for which Thatcher properly thanks him.

quote:
Are you using a different version of google to me? The first hit I get is the wikipedia entry, which says:

quote:
[...]some left-wingers refer to the paper with nicknames such as the "Daily Wail" and the "Daily Hate". The latter is in part because - according to Polly Toynbee in The Guardian [3] - the Mail's founder, Lord Northcliffe, said his winning formula was to give his readers "a daily hate".
There's even a citation and link there for you.


Apparently, Google does have a MUCH different hit ranking if you are coming from the UK. Repeating with the same search terms, I still do not get your link. So thank you for providing it.

Playing with google, I find that the following search terms work better on this side of the pond:

daily-hate daily-mail

There are several sites which, like wikipedia, attribute the "daily hate" to the Guardian quoting Northcliff, rather than just saying Northcliff said it. This raises some questions in my mind, as does the lack of context. In any event, googling on Lord Northcliff, I find that he died in 1922. It certainly does not improve my opinion of Guardian columnist Polly Toynbee that she repeatedly (here and here) uses this alleged "daily hate" quote against a competitor without noting that it was uttered an absolute minimum of 80 years previously. This is even more absurd than attacking today's New York Times for covering up Stalin's crimes, something you would surely think unfair. Right?

Getting back a little to your attack on Melanie Phillips for being anti-Muslim, I'm finding that Melanie's a piker when it comes to downing other people's religions compared to the popularizer of the Northcliff quote, Polly Toynbee. Here is Toynbee's concluding paragraph, writing about the funeral of the Pope:

quote:
Disgracefully, the European rich quietly ignore the church's outlandish teachings on contraception without rebelling on behalf of the helpless third-world poor who die for their misplaced faith. Those "civilised" Catholics have as much blood on their hands as the Vatican they support. They are like the Bollinger Bolsheviks who defended the USSR and a murderous ideology that they could do much to change. For today, just remember what lies beneath all this magnificent display.
I'm not saying that Toynbee's remarks are going to used to justify mass murder, or that they characterize the rest of the Guardian. However, if you are going to criticize newspaperwomen for religious insensitivity, let's look at the broadsheets too.

Also making a good run for an insensitivity title is London Mayor Ken Livingston, who won't apologize for this personal insult:

quote:
The row blew up after Mr Livingstone was approached by Evening Standard reporter Oliver Finegold following a party marking the 20th anniversary of former Culture Secretary Chris Smith coming out as Britain's first gay MP.

On tape, Mr Livingstone, who once worked as a freelance restaurant critic on the paper, is heard asking Mr Finegold if he is a "German war criminal".

Mr Finegold replies: "No, I'm Jewish, I wasn't a German war criminal. I'm quite offended by that."
The mayor then says: "Ah right, well you might be, but actually you are like a concentration camp guard, you are just doing it because you are paid to, aren't you?"

Maybe it's something you guys have in the water over there. Unfortunately, it ("it" being seeing malign motives in those with whom you disagree) is catching.

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"Hillel says yes, naturally, and Shammai says no, and Maimonides is perplexed, and what do I know?"
Julius Lester

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Senior
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Get your nice hot waffles here. Get 'em while they're hot.

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Ad astra per asparagus.

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Senior
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Eisenberg:
However, as cruel dictators go, Pinochet was preferable to Castro is because Pinochet allowed considerable economic freedom and helped put Chile on a road where it was likely to move to democracy in the future, whereas Castro, without committing mass murder, tries to keep all power to himself. Then there is the foreign policy assistance Pinochet gave Britain in time of crisis, for which Thatcher properly thanks him.

I know that Pinochet is the darling of the right wing for having ousted and brutally killed a popularly elected Marxist president. And I have to agree. The nerve of the Chileans to actually vote into office someone the U.S. didn't like? Allende deserved to be killed to prove to the Chilean people not to get too uppity.

However, once he had seized power, Pinochet's government was a disaster for the Chilean economy. For example:
quote:
In 1982, after 7 years of free market capitalism, Chile faced yet another economic crisis which, in terms of unemployment and falling GDP was even greater than that experienced during the terrible shock treatment of 1975. Real wages dropped sharply, falling in 1983 to 14 percent below what they had been in 1970. Bankruptcies skyrocketed, as did foreign debt. By the end of 1986 Gross Domestic Product per capita barely equaled that of 1970.
Chile's economy only started recovering toward the later years of Pinochet's dictorship when the aged dictator started losing control of his power to practice favoritism. Pinochet retarded the recovery of the Chilean economy which was, in all honesty, ailing pretty severely under Allende and the administrations which preceeded him. Pinochet rewarded his inner circle and the politically loyal. All through the 70s and early 80s Chile's economy was stagnant. As freedom began to creep back into the society in the late 80s and early 90s, trade and economic activity began to reanimate as well.

Pinochet did not save the economy nor the nation of Chile. The people of Chile, primarily the middle class and working class, saved their nation and economy despite Pinochet's mismanagement and oppressive grip.

As discussed in another website, data representing the average real wages during the Pinochet regime confirm this argument. Not until 1989 did average real wage approximate the level of 1970, when Allende was elected president. There were other problems as well:
quote:
The Pinochet regime allowed many corporate and financial institutions to fail. Utilizing the expropriation law, championed by Allende, it departed from its neo-liberal roots and assumed much of their debt through direct seizure. By breaking from the free-market tenets, the Pinochet regime avoided the complete dissolution of its banking system. The government eventually resold the failed private businesses and banks after returning them to solvency. Ultimately, the government assumed most of their $16 billion debt in foreign loans, incurred by speculative practices.
And as a jab at the libertarians and other free market advocates:
quote:
The Chilean experience demonstrates the limits of neo-liberalism and, more importantly, illustrates the failure of the zealous and inflexible application of economic theories to government. Chilean economic history from 1973 to 1990 teaches many lessons and offers important insight into the factors that affect economic development. The Chicago Boys failed to recognize that the free-market has serious limitations as the only device of economic management. They could not see the benefits of an oversight role by the government. For example, they disregarded the critical revenues used to cover social and military spending which resulted from Allende's nationalization of the copper industry, and the foundation for the fruit boom effected by Frei's agrarian reform. To them, the market must be free and divorced entirely from the state. Yet, Chile’s privatized banks failed in 1982 predominantly due to speculative investments and mismanagement, while the remaining public banks that invested more conservatively remained solvent. The neo-liberal policies failed to lead to sustained, positive growth during the Pinochet years. Subsequent administrations have recognized the optimistic prospects of policies comprised of a harmonious blend of government oversight with free-market reforms.


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Archie2K
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Pinochet helped us invade the Falklands, simple as. Here's the article from the time. I'll let others judge, all I'll say is that supporting the Afghans against the Russians, and taking assistance from the Chileans against the Argentinians hasn't taught us anything. Today we support the Uzbeks because they're not as bad as the Afghans.

@BlueStar: There are those who don't want to go back to the days of a three day week, garbage not being collected and dead not being buried with industrial action left, right and centre. It was this that made Labour an unelectable joke for years afterwards, and even if it was Thatcher and her scary policies that ended this, some are ultimately glad. Enough to win three elections it seems.

Today it is widely seen that the Labour government of '97 are more conservative than the Conservative government of '72.

But then this all happened before I was born so I suppose I can't speak.

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Vox populi vox canem

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Mistletoey Chloe
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Eisenberg:
But, for the record, googling the terms:

Lord Northcliff daily hate

doesn't come up with anything relevant to that charge either.

quote:
Apparently, Google does have a MUCH different hit ranking if you are coming from the UK. Repeating with the same search terms, I still do not get your link. So thank you for providing it.


Apparently, your problem with google is less its transatlantic vagaries that your inability to spell "Northcliffe." Note final "e."

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~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~

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Steve Eisenberg
The "Was on Sale" Song


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quote:
Originally posted by Chloe:
Apparently, your problem with google is less its transatlantic vagaries that your inability to spell "Northcliffe." Note final "e."

Yes, that was it. Google on "Lord Northcliffe" -- 43,200 hits. "Lord Northcliff" -- 332. Should be 336 or so when this series of posts is indexed [Wink]

I'm going to start a thread on this in the "Questionable Quotes" forum.

--------------------
"Hillel says yes, naturally, and Shammai says no, and Maimonides is perplexed, and what do I know?"
Julius Lester

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abigsmurf
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Eisenberg:
Also making a good run for an insensitivity title is London Mayor Ken Livingston, who won't apologize for this personal insult:

quote:
The row blew up after Mr Livingstone was approached by Evening Standard reporter Oliver Finegold following a party marking the 20th anniversary of former Culture Secretary Chris Smith coming out as Britain's first gay MP.

On tape, Mr Livingstone, who once worked as a freelance restaurant critic on the paper, is heard asking Mr Finegold if he is a "German war criminal".

Mr Finegold replies: "No, I'm Jewish, I wasn't a German war criminal. I'm quite offended by that."
The mayor then says: "Ah right, well you might be, but actually you are like a concentration camp guard, you are just doing it because you are paid to, aren't you?"

Maybe it's something you guys have in the water over there. Unfortunately, it ("it" being seeing malign motives in those with whom you disagree) is catching.
I actaully admired Ken Livingstone for not apologising. Why?

This reporter had been waiting outside a private house where Ken Livingstone was attending a party all night. Ken Livingstone left the house at something like 2:00am, this reporter was still there. He was aiming to get a shot of Livingstone when he wouldn't have been at his best and would try to get a juicy quote.

He probably didn't give a toss about what livingstone said to him (paparazzi get all sorts of abuse thrown at them and lap it up), infact him being at the centre of this scandle probably earned him a nice little bonus from his employers.

If the reporter had been a regular person and done the same to any of us, he would have likely got a punch for his antics, not just a little verbal quip like this. Why should reporters be so different?

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Steve Eisenberg
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quote:
Originally posted by abigsmurf:
I actaully admired Ken Livingstone for not apologising. Why?

This reporter had been waiting outside a private house where Ken Livingstone was attending a party all night. Ken Livingstone left the house at something like 2:00am, this reporter was still there. He was aiming to get a shot of Livingstone when he wouldn't have been at his best and would try to get a juicy quote.

Let's say the circumstances were similar, except that it was a Tory politician who suspected the 2AM reporter of being gay rather than a Jew. So instead of asking whether the reporter was a concentration camp guard, the politician asked him if he was one of those American blokes who tied up Matthew Shepherd.

Would you express the same admiration for the Tory insulting the homosexual journalist with a persecution-related jibe as you are here in expressing admiration for Livingstone insulting the Jewish journalist with a persecution-related jibe? If the answer is yes, there's may well be no bigotry at play.

P.S. Obviously, I don't get a good feeling from abigsmurf's post and find the admiration expressed too disturbing to ignore. However, I would be careful to distinguish insensitivity towards Jewish (or gay, or Moslem, or Catholic) concerns from actual support for persecution, something I don't see here. I was careful in this post to avoid namecalling, because I am sure that abigsmurf's quite different perspective from mine has much more to it than can be encompassed in any label.

--------------------
"Hillel says yes, naturally, and Shammai says no, and Maimonides is perplexed, and what do I know?"
Julius Lester

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trollface
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Eisenberg:
Millions of lives better.

But still not admirable that they were close friends, no?

Besides, that doesn't change the fact that Thatcher and the British governmet still supported Pol Pot when the massacre was going on. I find this not dissimilar to those who constantly bring up Halabjah as evidence of how evil Saddam is/was, yet fail to remember that the governments of our countries actively supported him at that time.

Yes, I was wrong about Thatcher having Pol Pot round to tea. But without her, it's doubtful that he could have killed close to the number he did. Still not exactly admirable, is it?

quote:
Then there is the foreign policy assistance Pinochet gave Britain in time of crisis, for which Thatcher properly thanks him.
I'm not really sure that we can call the Falklands a time of crisis. The official RAF page calls it "the issue of national honour and pride and the principle that international law must be upheld".

quote:
This is even more absurd than attacking today's New York Times for covering up Stalin's crimes, something you would surely think unfair. Right?
Depends if it were the mission statement of the New York Times to cover up Stalin's crimes, and if it were a formula to which they still held true today.

quote:
Here is Toynbee's concluding paragraph, writing about the funeral of the Pope:
I believe here she is talking about the Vatican policy of spreading the lie in 3rd world countries that condoms don't stop AIDS. This is something that is untrue and has killed thousands, if not millions of people. I think criticising this is fair, wheras using the London bombings to get across the message that Britain would be a better place without immigrants isn't really. One is criticising something that is untrue and kills people, the other is inciting and reenforcing racial hatred.

quote:
Also making a good run for an insensitivity title is London Mayor Ken Livingston, who won't apologize for this personal insult:
Interesing side-step. What has this got to do with anything I've said?

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seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears.

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aranea russus
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Eisenberg:
quote:
Originally posted by abigsmurf:
I actaully admired Ken Livingstone for not apologising. Why?

This reporter had been waiting outside a private house where Ken Livingstone was attending a party all night. Ken Livingstone left the house at something like 2:00am, this reporter was still there. He was aiming to get a shot of Livingstone when he wouldn't have been at his best and would try to get a juicy quote.

Let's say the circumstances were similar, except that it was a Tory politician who suspected the 2AM reporter of being gay rather than a Jew. So instead of asking whether the reporter was a concentration camp guard, the politician asked him if he was one of those American blokes who tied up Matthew Shepherd.

Would you express the same admiration for the Tory insulting the homosexual journalist with a persecution-related jibe as you are here in expressing admiration for Livingstone insulting the Jewish journalist with a persecution-related jibe? If the answer is yes, there's may well be no bigotry at play.

P.S. Obviously, I don't get a good feeling from abigsmurf's post and find the admiration expressed too disturbing to ignore.

Not wanting to wade in and steal abigsmurfs thunder, but I think your comparison doesn't really hold up.

"I was just doing my job" WAS the lame excuse trotted out by many nazis tried at nuremburg. When Livingstone said this he was telling the reporter that "I'm just doing my job" was not an excuse he could hide behind whilst comitting (albeit somewhat lesser) offenses.

There was no way Mr. Livingstone could have known the reporter was jewish, and the reporter was, of course, not there acting as a jew, nor representing the jewish faith or community. The claim of a 'persecution jibe' is entirely unfounded.

The admiration ABigSmurf expresses is probably more down to Livingstones refusal to back down before press harassment, and I second it.

PS Never mind the 2AM journalists, where are the 3AM girls?

Posts: 625 | From: Texas | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
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