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Author Topic: "Under God" Originally not in pledge?
Fata Morgana
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http://www.religioustolerance.org/nat_pled1.htm
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Avril
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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This seems to be correct from what I remember reading in newspapers and magazines this summer. Time ran an essay someone had written about being in school when the "under God" part was added and how re-learning it meant not turning your brain off (for about a month, at which point the brain got turned off again) while reciting it. I wrote a paper about the history of the Pledge for a French class.

Av "Je prete serment au drapeau des Etas-Unis d'Amerique..." ril

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Brad from Georgia
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I'm so doggone old that I learned the Pledge without "under God". I still say it that way, just pausing whilst the folks around me put the words in. Someone once accused me of being a liberal for doing that, and I was happy to say, "In this case, I'm being conservative, thank you very much."

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Red Squirrel
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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How acceptable in the US is it not to say the pledge at school? Or miss out "under God" if you don't believe in it? Or substitute "God" for "Allah" or "Vishnu" etc?
I remember always having to pray at primary (4-11)school in assembaly and accepting it grudgingly as I wasn't aware of any other way. I can't imagine how confusing it must be to someone who is not Christian/Jewish to have to deal with "God" at school and then go home and be told something completely different. Some children go to special religious schools that cater specifically for their religion but I rememebr a huge uproar about 5 years ago here when a new Islamic school was opening (seen as isolationist). My opinion is that religion should not be brought into school at all but basic morals taught- it should be up to the family or religious unit to teach religion not the school.

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judical
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The "Under God" part of the pledge wasn't added until the 50s(or late 40s?), during the Cold War. This is the same time that "In God we Trust" was put on American currency.
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ravensbane
The First USA Noel


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In spite of what SpiderLady said, actually "In God We Trust" first appeared on U.S. coin currency in 1864. It has appeared continuously on coin currency since 1909.

She is correct in so far as paper currency, the motto first appearing on paper bills in 1957.

http://www.ustreas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-god-we-trust.html

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Astra
The "Was on Sale" Song


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quote:
Originally posted by ravensbane:
In Spite of what Spider Lady said, actually "In God We Trust" has been on U.S. currency since 1864.

http://www.ustreas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-god-we-trust.html

But not for all coins, and there are several periods of time where it was abandoned and brought back.

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ravensbane
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Sorry astrogog, I thought I could edit my post for greater accuracy before anyone else posted.

My bad.

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Astra
The "Was on Sale" Song


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No problem, I didn't mean to sound curt, I was just clarifying your point [Big Grin]

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This has been yet another... USELESS POST.

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Brad from Georgia
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by SpiderLady_Troubador:
The "Under God" part of the pledge wasn't added until the 50s(or late 40s?), during the Cold War. This is the same time that "In God we Trust" was put on American currency.

1954. This was during the height of a Red-baiting, Commie-hunting craze in the U.S.A. We were told in elementary school that "from now on we will say "under God" in this part of the Pledge because that will keep any Communist from saying it." I was only seven years old then and in the third grade (I have a late-autumn birthday and started school early), but even so I thought the reasoning was dubious.

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darth_borehd
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by lexi_wades:
How acceptable in the US is it not to say the pledge at school? Or miss out "under God" if you don't believe in it? Or substitute "God" for "Allah" or "Vishnu" etc?

On the whole, it is not all acceptable. Most Judeo/Christian school officials consider the "under God" part of the Pledge to be sacred, necessary, and unchangeable. Substituting or omitting that part, prior to this ruling, would most likely have been punishable as a disrespectful action. If a child's religious or philosophical beliefs forbade him to say that part, then most school policies would be to have the child not participate in the pledge at all, rather than speak a "corrupted" version. This kind of policy formed the basis of Newdow's lawsuit, stating that requiring his daughter to "sit out" the pledge subjected her ostracizemet and unoffical persecution by teachers and students alike.
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Cervus
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In my public schools (elementary and middle) you were given a detention if you didn't stand up AND say the pledge. It was not enough just to stand up and be silent if you didn't believe in it. I had numerous trips to the principal's office and it wasn't because I was trying to be a rebel. It was because, once I learned what the pledge meant, I knew it was not something I could recite becuase I didn't agree with it. And no one understood my view that forcing American children to say "I pledge allegiance..." was brainwashing. (Weak argument, I know, but I was only 12 and it was the best I could come up with.) Also, if you are forcing someone to say something they don't mean, what's the point? All that grows is resentment. The standard answer I usually got from the school was "Because we say so," or "It's the law" or "Because you have to follow rules." Well, guess what. I do follow rules - only the ones that make sense for everyone involved. If I was going to have to spend the day in school, I would rather spend my time learning something important than repeating mindless drivel. Sadly, the only thing I learned in school was to keep my mouth shut. I'm not patriotic and don't consider myself an American - I don't affiliate myself with any country or nationality. I live in Florida because I love the land and the environment, not because it is part of a certain political republic. I have had many people tell me that America is the greatest country on earth, and if I don't like it, I should get the hell out. I reply that if America is the greatest country on earth, we really need to raise our standards. It really disappoints me that this is apparently the best we can do.

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Won't somebody please think of the adults!

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brick
Happy Holly Days


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Cervus,
I can't tell from your post whether there is another country that you prefer, or you think they all pretty much suck. If the former, have you considered moving there in order to maximize your happiness? I realize there are barriers to changing your country of residence, but it can be done. You've got your life to live. Might as well do it in a country you can be proud of.

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brick
Happy Holly Days


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A rare treat -- a piece of non-film related commentary from Roger Ebert on the subject. I think he puts it best here:
quote:
I grew up in an America where people of good breeding did not impose their religious convictions upon those they did not know very well. Now those manners have been discarded.

Larger church-state implications aside, it's also simply obnoxious.
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First of Two
The Bills of St. Mary's


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Yes, it's true, which is why I say that TRUE Conservatives should be fighting to restore the Pledge to its pristine, original condition.

quote:
I have had many people tell me that America is the greatest country on earth, and if I don't like it, I should get the hell out. I reply that if America is the greatest country on earth, we really need to raise our standards. It really disappoints me that this is apparently the best we can do.

Then you agree. Use Samsonite luggage.

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Grumpy
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by darth_borehd:
This kind of policy formed the basis of Newdow's lawsuit, stating that requiring his daughter to "sit out" the pledge subjected her ostracizemet and unoffical persecution by teachers and students alike.

In theory. I'm not so sure Newdow's daughter ever was ostracized, or ever refused to recite the pledge. Nor has Newdow ever been in a position to tell his daughter not to recite it, being a non-custodial parent.

But in theory, someone else's daughter could be persecuted.

As to the OP, it's a little strange to see anyone come to the UL board to verify what should be a known bit of US history. It's as if someone posted a message on the History board asking for corroboration on this "Articles of Confederation" legend.

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pinqy
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quote:
Originally posted by Cervus:
In my public schools (elementary and middle) you were given a detention if you didn't stand up AND say the pledge. It was not enough just to stand up and be silent if you didn't believe in it.

Unfortunately, you didn't know that the Supreme Court ruled that illegal back in 1943 (even before "uneder God" was added) The Court ruled that you cannot require students to go to school and require them to make a loyalty oath to remain. Under that ruling schools cannot require children to recite the Pledge, under God or not.
West Virginia v Barnette

pinqy

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Cynestria
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by pinqy:
Unfortunately, you didn't know that the Supreme Court ruled that illegal back in 1943 (even before "uneder God" was added) The Court ruled that you cannot require students to go to school and require them to make a loyalty oath to remain. Under that ruling schools cannot require children to recite the Pledge, under God or not.
West Virginia v Barnette

pinqy

It'd be a rough court battle though, since most schools I have any close experience with, you aren't getting in trouble directly for not saying the pledge. It's for "causing a disruption", "being disrespectful", nice meaningless terms like that.
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LizzyJingleBells
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Snopes talks about it, somewhat, in the Dr. Pepper/Pepsi/Coke legend, here. There is a link to the biography of the man who originaly wrote the pledge, but for some reason I can't link directly to it.

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Moose
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by brick:
If the former, have you considered moving there in order to maximize your happiness? I realize there are barriers to changing your country of residence, but it can be done. You've got your life to live. Might as well do it in a country you can be proud of.

Ah yes, the old "Commie go home" argument.
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brick
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Give me a break, Moose.

There was nothing hostile or intolerant about my post. I was, and remain, curious about Cervus' candid statement--whether there is a country in her heart that is beyond her reach or she is just seriously down in the dumps about civilization generally. Either one sounds like a recipe for depression. But you've got me pegged.

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Jon Up North
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I think it is perfectly reasonable to be dissatisfied with the state of one's country.. Even to dislike one's country. I also think it is unfair to suggest someone leave their home if they don't like the government. It strikes me that at the core of the USA was a group of people who were dissatisfied with their government and didn't leave home. Instead, they worked to make change.

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ByTor
The Red and the Green Stamps


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Cevrus' sounds like someone who very much would like America to be the country it proclaims itself to be. I see nothing that suggests a desire to leave the country. I would prefer myself to remain here and improve it. It is odd that you would suggest to someone who states that they are frustrated because they are frequently told "love it or leave it" that that person should "love it or leave it."

ByTor

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pinqy
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But Brick never said anything like "love it or leave it." I have no idea how that was inferred. Cervus expressed dissatisfaction with the United States so Brick (politely) inquired if there were any other country Cervus would prefer. There was no surface hostility, just what you choose to read into it. There are plenty of people I have met who have dissatisfaction with their own country and choose to move to another where they feel more comfortable. There's nothing wrong with that and there's nothing wrong with asking someone if that's how they feel.

pinqy

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Cervus
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Well, I took brick's post as being hostile, but that's the problem with message boards - you can't tell if a comment is being made as an innocent question or with malicious intent. Anyway, what I meant was that there are many people who think America is the greatest country on earth. Ok, but what about all the problems we have here? There's large amounts of poverty, illiteracy, crime, pollution, gangs...In my town it is not safe for a single woman to walk anywhere alone after dark because the chances are very high that she'll be assaulted and/or raped. There are often crack dealers and hookers at the end of my street and not only am I scared of it, I would certainly not consider it as a great part of America. Public education here is not as thorough as it could be. And god forbid we should teach young adults how to have sex responsibly - guess what - they're gonna do it anyway, no matter how much you preach abstinance. As a majority, Americans still seem to have the attitude that sex and nudity are bad and nasty. I don't know why this should be. There's also a very xenophobic attitude that anything foreign is to be feared. Several years ago there was a large number of kids shooting their schoolmates...there's overcrowding in schools and jails, not to mention stuff that comes up on these boards: frivilous lawsuits, HMOs, the loss of many freedoms, background checks and worthless "security" measures, etc. I am not stupid enough to think that there's a society or government without flaws. But America has a long way to go before it's the greatest country in the world, in my opinion. I don't know if there are any other countries I would prefer to live in. Most countries in the world have a lot, if not all of these problems, too. But I'd like to know what makes America so much better than, say, European countries? Yes, we have alleged freedoms. But we also seem to lack common sense and responsibility for our actions. Political correctness and sexual harassment lawsuits have gotten out of control. My boyfriend was fired for telling a cow-orker her new hairstyle looked pretty. It's to the point where you shouldn't even make eye contact with anyone. And if you have an opinion that differs from the norm (especially regarding America) you're essentially told to get the hell out, you Commie bastard.
[end of rant]
[SIGH] Do those of you in other countries feel that your country is the greatest on earth, and why or why not?

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Won't somebody please think of the adults!

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BeachLife
The Bills of St. Mary's


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Cervus, first of all, I'd like to buy a paragraph for $100 please.

I think most of your post is hyperbole. I can't tell whether it's due to exageration on your part of an exagerated perception.

quote:
Originally posted by Cervus:
Well, I took brick's post as being hostile, but that's the problem with message boards - you can't tell if a comment is being made as an innocent question or with malicious intent.

I like to give most posters the benefit of the doubt on this one, especially on the Snopes boards. If I am not sure, but think the post was hostile, I usually try to ask a question of clarification before assuming hostility.

quote:
Originally posted by Cervus:
Anyway, what I meant was that there are many people who think America is the greatest country on earth. Ok, but what about all the problems we have here?

It's a mistake to let perfection get in the way of better. Being the best country in the world does not guarantee perfection. Perfection isn't attainable, thus there will always be problems. What makes a country best is the net sum difference between the goods and the bads, not lack of bads.

quote:
Originally posted by Cervus:
There's large amounts of poverty, illiteracy, crime, pollution,...

The same is true most places in the world. To a much greater extent in many coutries I've visited. It's been said, only in America are the poor people fat.

quote:
Originally posted by Cervus:
In my town it is not safe for a single woman to walk anywhere alone after dark because the chances are very high that she'll be assaulted and/or raped.

Please tell me which city in Florida has a crime rate apparently surpassing to the worst parts of New York or Detroit?

quote:
Originally posted by Cervus:
Public education here is not as thorough as it could be.

And it never will be. Education only works when it is valued by the educated an his/her family. My kids are in an inner city school district which is supposed to be inferior. Still I'd put their math and language skills up against any kid their age in the world. My older daughter can argue fine points of history or politics with most audults. At the same time, I know adults who have had access to education of a much greater quality who are amazed that I can figure out how many gallons my pool holds and don't seem to understand the basics of how our government works.

quote:
Originally posted by Cervus:
And god forbid we should teach young adults how to have sex responsibly - guess what - they're gonna do it anyway, no matter how much you preach abstinance. As a majority, Americans still seem to have the attitude that sex and nudity are bad and nasty.

Complete hogwash.

quote:
Originally posted by Cervus:
I don't know why this should be. There's also a very xenophobic attitude that anything foreign is to be feared.

Though I know some people with this xenophobic additudes, most kids seem to be extrememly interested in other cultures. I have a house full of art, weapons, and other items from arond the world. I've never had anyone react with anything short of fascination at these items and the culturs they come from.

And if you want to try xenephobia try spending some time outside the US. Most people are automatically biased towards their own culture. It's human nature.

quote:
Originally posted by Cervus:
Several years ago there was a large number of kids shooting their schoolmates...there's overcrowding in schools and jails, not to mention stuff that comes up on these boards: frivilous lawsuits, HMOs, the loss of many freedoms, background checks and worthless "security" measures, etc. I am not stupid enough to think that there's a society or government without flaws. But America has a long way to go before it's the greatest country in the world, in my opinion. I don't know if there are any other countries I would prefer to live in. Most countries in the world have a lot, if not all of these problems, too. But I'd like to know what makes America so much better than, say, European countries? Yes, we have alleged freedoms. But we also seem to lack common sense and responsibility for our actions. Political correctness and sexual harassment lawsuits have gotten out of control. My boyfriend was fired for telling a cow-orker her new hairstyle looked pretty. It's to the point where you shouldn't even make eye contact with anyone. And if you have an opinion that differs from the norm (especially regarding America) you're essentially told to get the hell out, you Commie bastard.
[end of rant]
[SIGH] Do those of you in other countries feel that your country is the greatest on earth, and why or why not?

I think you really should try living in another country for a while. It's easy to pick at the issues of any country, but it doesn't work that way, you have to take the good with the bad. You may find that you like living in a socialised country, or where there is little crime, but Draconian laws (Singapore comes to mind). On the other hand you might learn to love the United States more.

I personally love Mexico, New Zealand and Argentina. I think I could retire to any of the three, but that's not to say they are better or worse than the United States. They suit me just as well.

It's easy to point out what's wrong with anything, but surprisingly difficult for most to move to a better country. Why is that?

Beach...freedom is hard to appreciate until you don't have it any more...Life!

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The Eight-Legged Otter
The Red and the Green Stamps


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My problem is the Pledge of Allegiance doesn't make any sense to most kids.

I was born in 1977, and said the pledge up until about 5th or 6th grade.

I'm amused that they have kids saying a pledge with words that were way above the average 2nd grader's vocabulary, like "indivisible," "allegiance," or what a Republic is.

It was just nonsense without context or understanding that we had to drone on until it was done.

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Goes-hmmm
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I got around this problem by pledging my allegiance to one nation underdog. That's what I'll keep saying even after they drag my godless heathen ass off to the concentration camp.

Goes-hmmm

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Nonny Mouse, on Santa's laptop
Once in Royal Circuit City


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quote:
Originally posted by The Eight-Legged Otter:


I'm amused that they have kids saying a pledge with words that were way above the average 2nd grader's vocabulary, like "indivisible," "allegiance," or what a Republic is.

Indivisible means you can't see it.

Allegiance is that club your grandfather goes to to drink beer with other grandfathers and talk about old wars.

And a Republic is a school your parents don't have to pay to send you to.

Any questions?

Nonny

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When there isn't anything else worth analyzing, we examine our collective navel. I found thirty-six cents in change in mine the other day. Let no one say that there is no profit in philosophy. -- Silas Sparkhammer

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abbubmah
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quote:
Originally posted by The Eight-Legged Otter:
I'm amused that they have kids saying a pledge with words that were way above the average 2nd grader's vocabulary, like "indivisible," "allegiance," or what a Republic is.

Of course, the Pledge was also introduced before standardized tests. Those words USED to be 2nd grade vocabulary.

ham "by the donzer's lee light" bubba

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Fundamentally Unfundie since 1975

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Jeffrey814
Jingle Bell Hock


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I was also born in '77. I said the pledge through high school, with god there the whole time. I don't say the pledge anymore because I figure I already said it about 1500 times and that should cover it.(It really doesn't come up either.)

I don't believe in god. I don't mind saying it though. I was married in a church even. God to me is nature, or dumb luck, or the supernatural. I really don't care.

The way I look at it, there are a few reasons I have everything I have; Me, my family, my country, & my "god".

I "pledge" allegiance to all of them.

Jeffrey

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A little nonsense now and then...

Posts: 478 | From: Wonder Lake, IL | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
blt
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by The Wonderful Nonny Mouse:
quote:
Originally posted by The Eight-Legged Otter:


I'm amused that they have kids saying a pledge with words that were way above the average 2nd grader's vocabulary, like "indivisible," "allegiance," or what a Republic is.

Indivisible means you can't see it.

Allegiance is that club your grandfather goes to to drink beer with other grandfathers and talk about old wars.

And a Republic is a school your parents don't have to pay to send you to.

Any questions?

Nonny

Yeah, were do the Liver Trees grow?
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Jason Threadslayer
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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The Knights of Columbus have a history about how they got the words "under God" added to the pledge:
http://www.kofc.org/member/pubs_forms/articles/995-99.pdf (Adobe Acrobat file).

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All posts foretold by Nostradamus.

Turing test failures: 6

Posts: 5481 | From: Decatur, GA | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Elkhound
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by The Eight-Legged Otter:
My problem is the Pledge of Allegiance doesn't make any sense to most kids.

I was born in 1977, and said the pledge up until about 5th or 6th grade.

It was just nonsense without context or understanding that we had to drone on until it was done.

I'm a bit older than you, but I distinctly remember more than one occasion when the teacher went over the pledge with us explaining the 'big words.'

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"The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch

Posts: 3307 | From: Charleston, WV | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
   

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