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RBCal
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Has anyone ever proven or debunked the Malachy prophecies? According to Malachy, there will only be two more popes until the end of the world. The next pope will be "Gloria Olivae" (The Glory of the Olive). The final pope will be Peter the Roman:

"In extreme persecution, the seat of the Holy Roman Church will be occupied by Peter the Roman, who will feed the sheep through many tribulations, at the term of which the city of seven hills will be destroyed, and the formidable Judge will judge the people. The End."

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guruwan2b
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I was looking at that yesterday and I believe some sites say that while Gloria Olivae will be the next pope and the final pope will be Peter the Roman, there may be some inbetween that are not named.
I will have to go back and look.
Kim "and welcome to snopes!"

Edited to add:
It has been noticed concerning Petrus Romanus, who according to St. Malachy's list is to be the last pope, that the prophecy does not say that no popes will intervene between him and his predecessor designated Gloria olivoe. It merely says that he is to be the last, so that we may suppose as many popes as we please before "Peter the Roman".
From http://www.catholic-pages.com/grabbag/malachy.asp

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AdmiralDinty
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There's really no way to "debunk it" since it's prophesy and totally open to interpretation. I always find it interesting that when they give the list according to St. Malacy they are often unable to give reasons for the cognomens that apply to some of the popes.

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guruwan2b
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Also the "Prophesies" were lost for 400 years. There is still a lot of speculation that they are forgeries.

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Malruhn
The "Was on Sale" Song


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What I haven't been able to find out is if the predictions for Pope were numerical or ordered, like First there will be Dude the Buff, then Cracked Bum, then Twisty Nipples - and that these corresponded to subsequent Popes... OR, if there were a hundred "predictions" and people have hunted and pecked their way through the list to make them fit to real people.

If this was all hit or miss, then "Peter the Roman" could well have been Pope Peter from back in 285 AD... hey, he IS the Bishop of Rome.

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Orshee
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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According to this prophecy, Is Peter the Roman going to bring about the end of the world, or will he just happen to be Pope when it occurs?

The way I read it, "feed the sheep through many tribulations" could mean that he takes care of the sheep during times of conflict or that he pushes them into tough times.

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guruwan2b
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I read on one of the sites where the final pope would leave the vatican and "walk out over the bodies of the priests". I'm not sure what that means.

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Casey, making hot chocolate
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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According to some versions, Peter the Roman will be the Antichrist.

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guruwan2b
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I read one article that said the guy who shot the pope (can't remember his name), sent him a letter begging him to tell the name of the antichrist before he died. It was something about the Fatima prophesy. Have to go look again.
Kim

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Jason Threadslayer
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by guruwan2b:
I read on one of the sites where the final pope would leave the vatican and "walk out over the bodies of the priests". I'm not sure what that means.

That's from the Third Secret of Fatima.

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Communication Attempt
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Well the pope is always stationned at the Vatican right?So the "of Rome" part can be interpreted as such.

So they basically tell us to run to the bomb shelter next time someone named Peters is mentionned in religion.Bah.

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Jason Threadslayer
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Communication Attempt:
Well the pope is always stationned at the Vatican right?

There was a time that the Popes lived in Avignon, France.

quote:
Originally posted by Communication Attempt:
So the "of Rome" part can be interpreted as such.

"Peter the Roman" has been understood to mean someone who is from Rome, who grew up in Rome.

quote:
Originally posted by Communication Attempt:
So they basically tell us to run to the bomb shelter next time someone named Peters is mentionned in religion.Bah.

A traditional belief/pious legend has been that the last Pope would be Peter II. Pope Sergius IV changed his name for that reason.

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e^pi_i
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And just to add some more of the prophecy in here...

Pope John Paul II, the 110th Pope, was designated "De labore Solis" by St. Malachy's prophecy. The day he was born, and now, the day of his funeral, a solar eclipse.

I guess coincidence, but who knows? [Cool]

http://www.catholic-pages.com/grabbag/malachy.asp

http://www.alphee.com/Phenomena/eclipse_1900_1925.htm

http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/space/04/05/solar.eclipse.ap/index.html?section=cnn_latest

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Orshee
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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But don't religious folks look forward to Judgment Day? I mean, isn't the idea of knowing Peter the Roman is followed by "The End" a good thing if you are a believer?
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Felessan
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quote:
Originally posted by e^pi_i:
And just to add some more of the prophecy in here...

Pope John Paul II, the 110th Pope, was designated "De labore Solis" by St. Malachy's prophecy. The day he was born, and now, the day of his funeral, a solar eclipse.

I guess coincidence, but who knows? [Cool]

http://www.catholic-pages.com/grabbag/malachy.asp

http://www.alphee.com/Phenomena/eclipse_1900_1925.htm

http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/space/04/05/solar.eclipse.ap/index.html?section=cnn_latest

FWIW, the eclipse on the day of John Paul II's funeral is (a) partial, (b) over the Americas. Had it been over Poland, and total...

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RBCal
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Yes, but John Paul II was born on May 18, 1920.
On that date, in the morning, there was a near total eclipse of the sun over Europe.

This seems a bit eerie.

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"The women who embraced in the wagon were Adam and Eve crossing a dark cathedral stage—no, Eve and Eve, loving one another as they would not be able to once they ate of the fruit and knew themselves as they truly were." - Lynn Cheney, Sisters.

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I Am 6-Ironsman
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Let's bring this up to the top now that Benedict XVI has been elected as the next Pope...
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Mistletoey Chloe
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The glory of the olive?

Pope Ye?

Sorry. [fish]

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Cubism artist
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AdmiralDinty commented on another thread that the symbol of Saint Benedict was the olive, and the prophecies said the next Pope would be "The Glory Of The Olive"
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Oualawouzou
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What if Benedict XVI choosed this name purposefully to mess with the heads of people who believe in those prophecies?

I bet he'll surf the web tonight and snicker "suckers!" a lot. [Wink]

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guruwan2b
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I was wondering how the Pope choses his name? Does he get to pick? Spin the bottle???
Kim

ETA: Found this:
He was, of course, free to pick from any of his 264 predecessors, use his own first name or come up with something new.

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Cubism artist
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John Paul I chose his name from his two predecessors, who were a major influence on him, John XXIII and Paul VI, then John Paul II chose the same name for the same reasons. Maybe today all the news are going to explain the reasons for Benedict XVI.
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Malruhn
The "Was on Sale" Song


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St. Benedict and Pope Benedict the XV were profound peacemakers, able to broker peaceful outcomes from horrible situations.

Evidentally, this is what Bene XVI wants to do as well...

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Elwood
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quote:
Originally posted by Orshee:
But don't religious folks look forward to Judgment Day? I mean, isn't the idea of knowing Peter the Roman is followed by "The End" a good thing if you are a believer?

Judgement day, yes. The tribulation that is thought to procede it by many, not so much.

Luke 21:
quote:
10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: 11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. 12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. 13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony. 14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: 15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. 16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. 17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. 18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish. 19 In your patience possess ye your souls. 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. 25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. 29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; 30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. 31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. 32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. 33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.


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Jason Threadslayer
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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"Mahony Says the World Soon Will See Pontiff's Pastoral Side":
quote:
After Ratzinger was elected, Mahony said, the new pope was asked what name he had chosen.

"He said, 'I'm going to take Benedict XVI,' but then went on to explain why, which is very interesting," Mahony said.

His first reason was that his namesake, Pope Benedict XV, reigned from 1914 to 1922 during World War I. "It was the worst scourge of war ever known on the face of the Earth" at the time, Mahony said.

"So he said we still need to be working at peacemaking, reconciliation and harmony around the world," Mahony said.

The second reason offered by Ratzinger was that St. Benedict, who founded the Benedictine Order, said that "Jesus Christ is first and foremost. Everything else is secondary. [Ratzinger] said those are the reasons [he] chose the name."



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LuMaria
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quote:
A traditional belief/pious legend has been that the last Pope would be Peter II. Pope Sergius IV changed his name for that reason.
Actually, Pope Sergius IV changed his name because it would simply have been presumptuous to name himself after the first Pope and leader of the church. And also to rid himself of his nickname, "Pig-nose". Pope Pig-nose isn't quite as distinguished. At any rate, he predated the prophecy/belief by at least a hundred years.
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RBCal
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To me it seems that Malachy's prophecies are debunked by the selection of Ratzinger. What does he have to do with "Gloria Olivae"???

If they had chosen Cardinal Martini, it would have been very fitting. Everyone knows an olive is the glory of the martini.

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LuMaria
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Nope, it's not really debunked. The symbol of the Benedictine order is the olive branch. And lo and behold, he named himself Benedict XVI. It's still rather thin to me, as he's not actually a Benedictine, but he named himself such because he was interested in promoting peace, or "extending an olive branch".

Or maybe I'm just really sleepy.

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M. J. Wise
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LuMaria,

Even that seems thin to me. After all, how many warmongering popes have their been in recent years?

More interesting, it is rumored that Cardinal Martini of Italy was the only major opposition that Benedict faced in the conclave. What if HE had been elected? Isn't the martini the "glory of the olive" ?? [Wink]

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LuMaria
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Heh, I really think he meant peace and understanding between Catholics and their church or whatever. Again, I think it's all quite tenuous, and you can really prove anything with those short little descriptions. If a pope ever eats an olive, it could be proven. It's not really specific detail.

And he needs to do something glorious, otherwise he'll just be "the olive".

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Laser Potato
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I drew a cartoon once, with the seven-headed dragon destroying New York and eating people, and it was saying "Ha ha ha! Did you really think the Antichrist was gonna be a crappy Pope?!" I don't know what I was thinking, really... I guess I watch way too much Evangelion. x.x

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valandearl19
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Can anybody tie Cardinal Ratzinger to the phrase "Glory of the Olive" because I can't think of anything unless the olive has some other meaning that I don't know about.

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quote:
Originally posted by valandearl19:
Can anybody tie Cardinal Ratzinger to the phrase "Glory of the Olive" because I can't think of anything unless the olive has some other meaning that I don't know about.

As has been already stated twice above, Ratzinger chose the name "Benedict", and the symbol of the Benedictine order is the olive branch.
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