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Author Topic: Does Communion Cup Runneth Over with Germs?
snopes
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Experts pretty much agree that the risk of contracting an illness from sharing a chalice is low. But some churches take precautions.

http://www.latimes.com/features/religion/la-me-beliefs1jan01,1,1853677.story

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TrishDaDish
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There's germs all the time, and if someone sick backwashes the old wine, it can't help you any. You want disturbing germ facts? You know where you can get tons of unwanted germs? By using a carraige at the supermarket. (Cough, cough into the hand, put the hand on the carraige to push it, next person uses it - presto! They got cold germs on their hands!)

Trish "The Monk site used to have a ton of disturbing germ facts a while back" DaDish

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Koshka
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I can't see the story (not registered at that site), but fear of disease is supposed to be why several of the Nebraska ABC churches quit using a common cup decades ago.
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mrs.hi-c clown fishies
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When my parents church changed their wine, the church said that it had less alcohol content. A lot of people were leary of this, because alcohol should kill all germs. I don't know about backwashing, but I know that a little white clothe that the priest uses to wipe the cup in between isn't gonna do much, except spread the germs around. Also, what about the denominations that allow people to take the cup to drink? It would probably be the equivalent of putting your hands on a grocery cart, like Trish mentioned.

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STF
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My Lutheran church pours the wine from the chalice into a little plastic cup as does the Baptist church I attend. One or both of them may actually use grape juice. I'm actually not sure.

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MHDIsHere
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I'm a Chalicist at my church, and this is how it was explained to me. First, the chalice is silver, which I'm told tend to kill the germs. Second,the alcohol in the wine kills the germs. Third, I wipe the rim of the cup after each person. Fourth, I give the chalice a partial-turn after each person drinks from it so the next person isn't drinking from the same part of the chalice.

Since it's usually my job to finish off whatever's left in the chalice, I'm drinking from it after everyone else. I suspect everyone shaking hands with the priest after Mass is more likely to spread germs than the chalice. Besides, God gave me an immune system to deal with these things.

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Elwood
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Thinking aobut it, I've never been in a service where a common chalice was drank from directly. In the Methodist church I went to growing up, we dipped the bread in the wine and then ate it, consuming both elements toghether. Every other church I've been to uses those dinky individual disposable plastic cups, with the wine or juice prepoured before the service begins.

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Fowlplay
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When I was a kid our church gave you a choice: we either had the little dinky cups or you could drink from the 'cup of the commons'. This made everybody happy. Haven't seen other churches do it this way though. I know 'intinction' (SP?) is becoming very popular these days because of speed, ease and fear of germs.

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DawnStorm
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Several years ago, my mom's church was thinking of going to a Common Cup. My mom immediately spoke up and said that if that came to pass, she was going to use a straw at Communion. [Big Grin]

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TurquoiseGirl
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quote:
Originally posted by MHDIsHere:
I'm a Chalicist at my church, and this is how it was explained to me. First, the chalice is silver, which I'm told tend to kill the germs. Second,the alcohol in the wine kills the germs. Third, I wipe the rim of the cup after each person. Fourth, I give the chalice a partial-turn after each person drinks from it so the next person isn't drinking from the same part of the chalice.

Since it's usually my job to finish off whatever's left in the chalice, I'm drinking from it after everyone else. I suspect everyone shaking hands with the priest after Mass is more likely to spread germs than the chalice. Besides, God gave me an immune system to deal with these things.

Silver is a very good antibacterial. I'm not so sure about antiviral. Alcohol only works as an effective antimicrobial if the object is soaking in it. Wiping the chalice between sips is probably doing more good than the wine.

The biggest way people pass around germs is on their hands. You touch something and wipe your nose. Unless you are sticking your nose right in the chalice, or the last person left a lot of snot on it, it's not going to be too bad. It is harder for anything nasty (except for a few specific pathogens which have evolved over the years to survive the alimentary tract), to make you sick through the mouth, because, there are enzymes and stuff in there.

You probably are in more danger from using the same hymnal immediately after someone with a cold than you are by drinking out of the chalice.

I would hope that someone with severe diarrhea or strep throat would have the sense not to use a common chalice.

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The Eyeball Kid
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Just to play devil's advocate - errrr, that's confusing. But, here goes:

It's not wine in the Chalice.

Alchohol content is irrevelent. Chalice make-up (silver, clay, dirt, paper, plastic, whatevuh) is irrevelent.

And, just to throw another cog in that wheel...Jesus was NOT WHITE. He most likely looked more like this (although younger):

 -

Focusing on things that are of little, or no importance is the seed of diversion. Diversion is the father of faithlessness.

Eyeball Kid

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pinqy
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quote:
It's not wine in the Chalice.

Yes, it is. Even the doctrine of transsubstantiation admits that physically it is still wine with wine properties. Some Protestant sects don't use wine, of course, but the Catholic Church does.

pinqy

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Morgaine La Raq Star
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There was a case a few years ago in my area where a woman who attended a chuch that used a 'common cup' came down with Menningitis or something like that. The local paper did a story & there were very few (like 10 or less & this is *big* city) that still used the common cup. Most had gone to small cups or intinction, which is dipping a small piece of bread into the juice/wine that's in the chalice.
My church does intinction & I like it. At least it saves someone having to fill all those little cups! And, with 4 groups of chalice & bread holders, it tends to go quickly but you don't feel rushed.


Morgaine

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ToadMagnet
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One of our priests forbade intinction because, he said, "Jesus said take and eat, take and drink ... not take and dunk." At my current church, the people with the wine are set quite far away from those serving the hosts - not sure if that's to keep lines moving, or to discourage dunking.

I always figured that if you're truly faithful, you won't be worrying about germs at communion.

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Simetrical
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Incidentally, in English we don't inflect main verbs that are accompanied by auxiliaries. We inflect the auxiliary, and use the infinitive for the main verb. The correct form for the topic's subject line would be "Doth Communion Cup Run Over with Germs?" Same thing for that annoying "IBM can helpeth" commercial, although in that case, the "can" isn't inflected either.

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The Eyeball Kid
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quote:
Originally posted by pinqy:
quote:
It's not wine in the Chalice.

Yes, it is. Even the doctrine of transsubstantiation admits that physically it is still wine with wine properties. Some Protestant sects don't use wine, of course, but the Catholic Church does.

pinqy

No, it is not.

And, no, the "doctrine of transsubstantiation" does not "admit" that physically it is still "wine with wine properties" - unless you subscribe to a fractured definition of transubstantiation. The properties of the substance that resemble wine are known as accidentals, or "accidents" of the transubstantiation. Any admission that the substance is not the actual 'body and blood' of Christ, and is actually wine in representation of these, is in opposition to the "doctrine of transsubstantiation" - which is why I brought the point up to begin with. Transubstantiation is not only "dogma" for Catholicism, but also the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Of course, one could argue that the belief that the wine and eucharist is the actual body and blood of Christ is simple idolatry, as well - in which case one would be aligned with Ian Paisley and Jack Chick, claiming a belief in "transignification".

What you are referring to, that the body and blood of Christ are present *in* the bread and wine of consecrated hosts, is known as Contransubstantiation, and is considered "dogma" in the Lutheran Church.

Eyeball "Oh, my dear Lilliput" Kid

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pinqy
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Let me rephrase, then. "Even the doctrine of transubstantiation does not claim that any empirical tests would show the liquid in the chalice to be anything but wine, containing alcohol or that the effects of drinking enough would not cause one to become intoxicated as if they had drunk real wine."

The claim that the wine is in reality transformed into blood and no longer "really" wine is a meaningless claim outside of metaphysics.

pinqy

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The Eyeball Kid
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quote:
Originally posted by pinqy:


The claim that the wine is in reality transformed into blood and no longer "really" wine is a meaningless claim outside of metaphysics.

pinqy

"Oh, ye of little faith." Heheh.

I think it's strange that you would engage yourself into a discussion in a "Religious" thread, and when countered, you jump to the "well science wouldn't prove it" rhetoric. That's so unfortunate, and boring. And, not like you, pinqy.

But, with that said - you are wrong again.

Science, without explanation of "how" (which, I guess you'd point out is the definition of 'metaphysics' after all - no one knows how . Of course, no one knows why there is air, either - so, the point is moot.), the "transubstantiation" of Holy Eucharist has not only been documented, but also preserved for you and anyone else to observe. How convenient. The most famous, of course:

The "Miracle at Luciano, Italy"

http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html

After medical examinations were performed on the consecrated "Host" in the 1970's, more were performed in the 1980's. The following were found:

quote:
- The Flesh is real Flesh. The Blood is real Blood.


-The Flesh and the Blood belong to the human species.


-The Flesh consists of the muscular tissue of the heart.


-In the Flesh we see present in section: the myocardium, the endocardium, the vagus nerve and also the left ventricle of the heart for the large thickness of the myocardium.


-The Flesh is a "HEART" complete in its essential structure.


-The Flesh and the Blood have the same blood-type: AB


-In the Blood there were found proteins in the same normal proportions (percentage-wise) as are found in the sero-proteic make-up of the fresh normal blood.


-In the Blood there were also found these minerals: chlorides, phosphorus, magnesium, potassium, sodium and calcium.


-The preservation of the Flesh and of the Blood, which were left in their natural state for twelve centuries and exposed to the action of atmospheric and biological agents, remains an extraordinary phenomenon.

There are several others, which I will not attempt to cite here -

But, really - can't all of this be chalked up to your "metaphysics", or "voodoo" claim? Certainly! But, that does not negate the fact that an end-result has occured, which has been medically and scientifically examined.

I see your metaphysics, and I raise you one voodoo.

Eyeball "Blefuscu!! Gadzunheit!" Kid

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Slainey
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I'm told that the reason bread and wine were are the ideal candidates for this sacrament is that they have already transformed once. Ironically, it's a "germ" or "infection" better known as yeast that makes this initial transformation possible.

Slainey

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pinqy
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quote:
Originally posted by The Eyeball Kid:
I think it's strange that you would engage yourself into a discussion in a "Religious" thread, and when countered, you jump to the "well science wouldn't prove it" rhetoric. That's so unfortunate, and boring. And, not like you, pinqy.

No, it's perfectly like me. Faith is one thing, and I have no problem with discussing matters purely on faith with no objective way of proving or disproving the matter. But that's not the case here. You are making a claim of physical reality, which moves it from the sphere of theology and into science...the study of the natural realm.

quote:
the "transubstantiation" of Holy Eucharist has not only been documented, but also preserved for you and anyone else to observe. How convenient. The most famous, of course:

The "Miracle at Luciano, Italy"

I'm confused. Why would an act that occurs thousands of times a day, every day, need to go back to teh 8th century for "proof?" It would be so simple to test the claims of actual transformation...you take a batch of wafers and a container of wine. Have a priest perform mass with a random selection of the wafers and half the wine, leaving the rest as a control. Then run an analysis on the wafers and wine, not knowing which were used in the mass and which not, and note the differences. If there was a real, physical difference, it would show.

quote:
After medical examinations were performed on the consecrated "Host" in the 1970's, more were performed in the 1980's. The following were found: list of stuff.
Let's be real...what the medical examinations proved is that the material examined were a human heart and human blood. That the material was physically transformed from bread and wine was not proven. People lie. People lie to promote religious beliefs. Therefore to determine the truth, we have to eliminate the possibility of lies or hoaxes. We can't do that here, and I rather doubt you can do it for any of your citations.


quote:
But, really - can't all of this be chalked up to your "metaphysics", or "voodoo" claim? Certainly! But, that does not negate the fact that an end-result has occured, which has been medically and scientifically examined.
Where did you get "voodoo" from? It doesn't apply to anything I've said. There is no "fact" that a transformation occurred. There is a claim of transformation. The only fact is that the material presented is what was claimed. That does not prove that it was once something else. I can make the claim that I am actually writing this from my car using mental powers. Since my car doesn't have a computer, I couldn't be using one, and here you have the FACT that the message was indeed written.

Further more...Why doesn't every consecrated Host and wine do the same?

pinqy

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MHDIsHere
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Pinqy,
I have a simpler method of proving that the wine in the chalice is really still wine, despite being transformed into the Blood of Christ during Mass. As I said, I'm a Chalicist, part of my duties involve finishing up what's left in the chalice. If the priest consecrates too much I can tell you I get a bit of a buzz from chugging the equivalent of a glass of wine after observing a Communion fast. Whatever else happens, the alcohol is still there.

For me it's highly Incarnational, the wine is both wine and blood, just as Jesus is both God and man. For the record, I'm Anglican, not Roman Catholic, so Consubstantiation doesn't present any particular problem for me.

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TheEzrahite17
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quote:
Originally posted by The Eyeball Kid:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by pinqy:
[qb]

Of course, one could argue that the belief that the wine and eucharist is the actual body and blood of Christ is simple idolatry, as well - in which case one would be aligned with Ian Paisley and Jack Chick, claiming a belief in "transignification".

Of all the people to be aligned to....I'd prefer having it be siding with a Luther or even a Zwingli.
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medtchva
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Besides the grocery cart to spread infectious agents, there's the door knobs, handles, coins, etc that we physically touch every day. Yes, bacteria can survive on coins long enough to be passed to another person.

Also a group of mine in school did an experiment, wiping the tops of soda cans taken directly from vending machines and testing for bacteria. Believe me, you don't want to know what was found.

Another source that people don't think about - long fingernails and fake fingernails. Not only do fake nails make a perfect environment for fungi, they also can transmit some nasty bacteria. Case in point - a neonatal intensive care had a problem with infants developing infections with a infectious and dangerous bacteria (Pseudomonas aeruginosa). The infants of course did not touch each other, nor was any equipment shared between infants. Two or three of the infants died from these infections. Finally it was found a nurse with fake nails was haboring the bacteria under the fake nails and unknowingly passing it on to the infants under her care.

So yes, it's entirely possible even with precautions such as wiping, alcohol content, etc. that bacteria or viruses could be spread via a common cup. Stranger things have happened - who would have ever thought people would get sick from the mist given off by an air conditioner on a roof top... yet that is how Legionnaire's disease was first discovered.

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Laura
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It IS wine in the Chalice, it simply represents the blood of christ but still has the physical properties of wine. I'm sacrisan and server at my church and it's my job to prepare the chalice.
The priest pours the wine into the chalice from a small glass....jug type thing and then pours blessed water in from another.

The little white cloth (or purificator, as it's know) is simply to make sure no wine, or 'blood of christ' drips on to the floor between sips, it is NOT meant to get rid of any germs.

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Jay Tea
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quote:
It IS wine in the Chalice, it simply represents the blood of christ but still has the physical properties of wine.
I think that's the reformed way of looking at things Laura, consubstantiation. Catholicism holds transubstantiation and to regard the wine as anything other than the blood of Christ is heresy. At least that's what I recall from my a-level [Wink]

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AdmiralDinty
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That's correct Jay.

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Laura
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I'm all about the black and white, Jaytea It's simply not logical that wine can turn into blood. I must be a Heretic. My priest would probably agree, he does think i'm quite mad. That's why he and i get on so well. He's not you average, boring, stuffy old man type priest. Well, he's not old [Razz]

Iv'e simply learned all iv'e learned from him. I must be DOOMED!

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pinqy
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quote:
I'm all about the black and white, Jaytea It's simply not logical that wine can turn into blood.
Or a staff turning into a snake? Water into wine? Five loaves of bread and two fish feeding 5,000 men (plus unspecified women and children) with 12 baskets of leftovers? A virgin birth? Rising from the dead after 3 days buried? And wine into blood is what's illogical?

pinqy

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Elwood
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I completely fail to understand why the wine *has* to turn into anything at all. Jesus said "I am the door," and "I am the vine" without expected a literal interpretation yet when he says "this is my blood" *after* telling his disciples that they must drink from the same "cup" as He a short while earlier and all of a sudden it needs to be more than a powerful symbol? I don't get it.

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Laura
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i guess it's ALL illogical. But i suppose all these other things happened in the time jesus was said to have existed. It's hard to imagine wine turning into blood right infront of your eyes at the hands of a priest. But i suppose you could argue God/Jesus is working through the priest.
This is the kind of thing that people could argue over forever and never come to a final decision on what's right and what's wrong.

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The Eyeball Kid
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Trying to be as plain as possible here, so bear with me. I'm only giving you the answer from a theological point of view, in a Catholic sense. So, the arguments of "no, no, no, it's just a symbol" aren't relavent.

quote:
Faith is one thing, and I have no problem with discussing matters purely on faith with no objective way of proving or disproving the matter. But that's not the case here. You are making a claim of physical reality, which moves it from the sphere of theology and into science...the study of the natural realm.

I know, and playing Devil's advocate. The statement that the substance in the chalice is not wine negates any discussion of "oh my gawd, am I gonna get sick from this?" It will also be discussed below...

quote:
Why would an act that occurs thousands of times a day, every day, need to go back to teh 8th century for "proof?"
You missed the point. The "transubstantiation" that occured in the 8th Century has been preserved, without "air-tight" chambers, etc., as a 'miracle' or 'gift' to the believers. That is all. That was the point. Science cannot explain this, nor should be asked to, or brought up. Just as science cannot explain why there is air - but, it can explain that there *is* air, and what it does, but not why.

quote:
People lie. People lie to promote religious beliefs.
Yes, they do. So, do you know something we don't?

quote:
Further more...Why doesn't every consecrated Host and wine do the same?

It does.

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If the priest consecrates too much I can tell you I get a bit of a buzz from chugging the equivalent of a glass of wine after observing a Communion fast. Whatever else happens, the alcohol is still there.

And, that's somehow proof that it is wine? (I tell ya, Devil's Advocate is fun, sometimes.) No, it does not. I get a buzz from guarine, as well. Could it have changed into guarine?

quote:
quote:
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Originally posted by The Eyeball Kid:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by pinqy:
[qb]

Of course, one could argue that the belief that the wine and eucharist is the actual body and blood of Christ is simple idolatry, as well - in which case one would be aligned with Ian Paisley and Jack Chick, claiming a belief in "transignification".

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Of all the people to be aligned to....I'd prefer having it be siding with a Luther or even a Zwingli.

Except, Luther, nor Zwingli claimed this as idolatry. Err, not following you.

quote:
It IS wine in the Chalice, it simply represents the blood of christ but still has the physical properties of wine. I'm sacrisan and server at my church and it's my job to prepare the chalice.
The priest pours the wine into the chalice from a small glass....jug type thing and then pours blessed water in from another.

The little white cloth (or purificator, as it's know) is simply to make sure no wine, or 'blood of christ' drips on to the floor between sips, it is NOT meant to get rid of any germs.

An example of "transfiguration", not "transubstantiation", which has been argued out and back for centuries. Laura, do you know why the Priest pours water into the wine? Hint: what did The Christ bleed?. And, if you are certain that it is JUST wine etc., then why are you issued a "purificator" in case any of this "wine" drips onto the floor? Normally, these things are called napkins, if used this way, not purificators. And, Jay is right - that is not Catholic doctrine, it is known as Contransubstantiation, and for many centuries considered "heresy". (off with her head!)

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I'm all about the black and white, Jaytea It's simply not logical that wine can turn into blood.
[Big Grin]

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I completely fail to understand why the wine *has* to turn into anything at all. Jesus said "I am the door," and "I am the vine" without expected a literal interpretation yet when he says "this is my blood" *after* telling his disciples that they must drink from the same "cup" as He a short while earlier and all of a sudden it needs to be more than a powerful symbol? I don't get it.

Ok, that's a perfect post to use for explaining...as if anyone is still listening.

Jesus used Jewish traditions to teach and tell his disciples who and why he was. He said "I am the way...No one goes to the Father, except through me." This is a hard teaching, I understand. To boldy say that no one can go to the Father except through Him was to essentially say that Moses, Elijah, etc. had not gone to the Father. Not yet, at least. Or had they? Very difficult concept.

Until he explained himself further.

In the tradition of Passover (Pesach), the Jewish celebration of freedom from Egypt, the main focal point of this celebration is called Seder (Passover Meal). Within this meal, four glasses of wine are served, in intervals, representing: 1) Freedom, 2) Deliverence, 3) Redemption, and 4) Release. Other foods are consumed, all of which have symbolic meanings within Jewish culture and history, especially the lack of yeast. (or "lack of pride/arrogance in the soul".) As was the tradition, the sacrificial lamb was eaten at this Seder - of which it's blood was 'smeared' on the door of homes, noting to the angel of death to "passover" that home.

The reason this is significant is because it was at the Seder when Christ explained Himself to His disciples...explaining that He was the "lamb of God". He was the sacrifice at the temple. He was the marking to be left on the door, so as the angel of death would not visit. In other words, here: (Luke 22:19-20)

quote:

19And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”

20In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.


and...

John 6:51-63

quote:
51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

52Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

53Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life."


Even the apostles had this discussion, in front of Him, and he plainly explained Himself.

What is hard to peice together is this:

Eucharistic wine = blood of the Lamb of God, to be observed in repitition. This does not symbolize anything, instead it notes to the angel of death to whom one belongs. There is no symbolism. It is what it is. And, according to Christ, if one is does not take of his body/blood, then he/she does not go to the Father.

Wondering whether there are germs in the chalice is just confusing the issue, don't you think?

As an aside, this is the very reason that the Passover/Seder portion of the Catholic Mass is performed on an alter, as a symbol of the Passover Sacrifice. The Passover sacrifice was not bread and wine, it was lamb - and the Seder was made up of lamb and breads.(etc.) When the bread and wine is consecrated, "in memory" of Him, then it is no longer wine, nor bread, but what he said it was: His body, His blood.

So, you say it's still wine? Do you call Him a liar?

--------------------
I gotta keep movin' while I still can / I got a two-pack habit and a motel tan. --Steve Earle

Posts: 425 | From: very close to a snoring black pug. | Registered: Jun 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Simetrical
The Red and the Green Stamps


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By the standards we use for anything else—yes, it's wine. There's no arguing that. If you want to change your standards, say that it is really and truly blood in every sense of the word, but on some different level than we can comprehend, that's fine. Granted, you're guilty of logical equivocation, but that can be overlooked in staunchly traditional religion.

-Simetrical

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pinqy
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
You missed the point. The "transubstantiation" that occured in the 8th Century has been preserved, without "air-tight" chambers, etc., as a 'miracle' or 'gift' to the believers. That is all. That was the point. Science cannot explain this, nor should be asked to, or brought up. Just as science cannot explain why there is air - but, it can explain that there *is* air, and what it does, but not why.

As for the preservation, I don't know. It's possible that it was tampered with. Lack of explanation doesn't mean miracle. No idea what the real situation is. But it's still not evidence that bread and wine transformed into flesh and blood.
quote:
quote:
People lie. People lie to promote religious beliefs.
Yes, they do. So, do you know something we don't?
Nope. Just observing that it's prudent to remain skeptical when the claimant has reason to lie.
quote:
quote:
Further more...Why doesn't every consecrated Host and wine do the same?
It does.

Really? Every time this occurs: "During Holy Mass, after the two-fold consecration, the host was changed into live Flesh and the wine was changed into live Blood, which coagulated into five globules, irregular and differing in shape and size." Odd how nobody notices.
quote:
quote:
If the priest consecrates too much I can tell you I get a bit of a buzz from chugging the equivalent of a glass of wine after observing a Communion fast. Whatever else happens, the alcohol is still there.
And, that's somehow proof that it is wine? (I tell ya, Devil's Advocate is fun, sometimes.) No, it does not. I get a buzz from guarine, as well. Could it have changed into guarine?
Well, it was wine before. It did not lose the properties that cause intoxication, common to wine yet unkown in blood. So it is indeed evidence that it did not, in fact, change at all.

pinqy

--------------------
Don't Forget!
Winter Solstice Hanukkah Christmas Kwanzaa & Gurnenthar's Ascendance Are Coming!

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Troodon
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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I presume that no one here will deny that consecrated wine (more specifically, wine known with certianty to be consecrated) is identical to normal wine and not to blood according to any scientific test.

Thus, insisting that the wine literally becomes blood leads to one of two conclusions: either the blood of Jesus is not human blood but is instead a liquid indistinguishable from wine, and therefore the physical body of Jesus was not that of a human, or no known method of observing the world gives even remotely accurate results.

This reminds me - I read that the Pope has infallibly proclaimed that Mary was bodily brought into Heaven, therefore implying that Heaven is a physical place that can contain bodies.

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The Eyeball Kid
Deck the Malls


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I find it thoroughly interesting how people will openly admit that they are Christian, or believe in Christianity, then boldly dismiss the most pivotal point of the religion as something "scientifically" opposite of what it said to be, by their very Savior. Isn't that the definition of irony? (I'm not being fascicious or snarky, I just find it really interesting. As an observer, it's like someone eating a hamburger and claiming that they're vegetarian. Very odd.)

Then, I guess when asked if you "believe", the answer is simply "no".

EK

--------------------
I gotta keep movin' while I still can / I got a two-pack habit and a motel tan. --Steve Earle

Posts: 425 | From: very close to a snoring black pug. | Registered: Jun 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
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