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Author Topic: Jesus & Horus
Jon Up North
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Are you looking for some sort of Egyptian history site which says "And this god later was taken by xianity and turned into jebus?"

Jon

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Otterpop, The Marvelous Pumpkin
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^ my halo slipped...

I've seen similar claims made about Osiris, namely that his birthday was December 25 (like Egyptians used that calendar). I've also been unable to find any actual mythological citations that haven't been "revised" to fit the current "you stole all your religion from us anyway" theory. Also, Dionysus (Bacchus) is said to have been born of a virgin (his father was Zeus, but he impregnated Semele as a golden beam of light).

I do note similarites between statues of Isis and the infant Horus, and pictures of Mary holding Jesus. But this hardly constitutes proof that the ideas were "stolen", or whatever it is these people are trying to prove.

The story of a God that is born, dies, and is reborn - in its most basic and generic form - this, I think is something that is common to nearly every culture. I don't see why that would make the form of the story YOU believe invalid (and I'm not getting into the "compatiblilty of religions" bit going on elsewhere).

Some people aren't secure in their beliefs unless they can feel that theirs are superior to your own "misguided" ones. There's not much you can say to people like that anyway.

Otter "born again & I have 2 belly buttons to prove it [Laughing out loud] " pop

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Jon Up North
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quote:
Some people aren't secure in their beliefs unless they can feel that theirs are superior to your own "misguided" ones. There's not much you can say to people like that anyway.
I don't see how pointing out certain aspects of the Jesus myth which have been stolen from other cultures equates to any feeling of superiority. I have a few jewish friends who point out several parts of their religion which were stolen from the Romans (and they point it out during passover no less). I don't think they're of lesser faith because of that.

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First of Two
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The God Who Dies And Is Reborn is an archetypal figure, and in various guises appears in mythologies around the world.

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KingDavid8
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quote:
Originally posted by Jon Up North:
Are you looking for some sort of Egyptian history site which says "And this god later was taken by xianity and turned into jebus?"

No, I'm looking for an Egyptian mythology site, or book, which says that Horus did all these things later attributed to Jesus.

I grabbed this list off of a web site. How many of these things really are in the Horus story? From the web sites I've seen so far, none of them are.

quote:
-Horus was born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25th in a cave/manger with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.
Of course, Jesus wasn't born 12/25 and there were no wise men at his birth. And from what I've seen, his mom Isis (never seen the 'Meri') was about as much a virgin as Britney Spears is.

quote:
-His earthly father was named "Seb" ("Joseph").

-He was of royal descent.

-At age 12, he was a child teacher in the Temple, and at 30, he was baptized, having disappeared for 18 years.

-Horus was baptized in the river Eridanus or Iarutana (Jordan) by "Anup the Baptizer" ("John the Baptist"), who was decapitated.

-He had 12 disciples, two of whom were his "witnesses" and were named "Anup" and "Aan" (the two "Johns").

-He performed miracles, exorcised demons and raised El-Azarus ("El-Osiris"), from the dead.

-Horus walked on water.

-His personal epithet was "Iusa," the "ever-becoming son" of "Ptah," the "Father." He was thus called "Holy Child."

-He delivered a "Sermon on the Mount" and his followers recounted the "Sayings of Iusa."
Horus was transfigured on the Mount.

-He was crucified between two thieves, buried for three days in a tomb, and resurrected.

-He was also the "Way, the Truth, the Light," "Messiah," "God’s Anointed Son," the "Son of Man," the "Good Shepherd," the "Lamb of God," the "Word made flesh," the "Word of Truth," etc.
He was "the Fisher" and was associated with the Fish ("Ichthys"), Lamb and Lion.

-He came to fulfill the Law.

-Horus was called "the KRST," or "Anointed One."

-Like Jesus, "Horus was supposed to reign one thousand years."

David

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Noemi
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I've been rather curious about this idea because it doesn't match up with anything I had ever read about Horus. I was able to find this article that looks at the theories connecting Jesus to both Osiris and Horus. It was the only one I could find that wasn't just a repitition of the list that King David posted above.

Noemi

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You can find lots of bits and pieces of Jesus-esqe mythological information in dozens of traditions.

However, it's rather hard to show that they were borrowed to produce Christianity's beliefs, and relatively few traditions have a high concentration of familiar stuff.

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Jon Up North
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I think part of what makes me (and others) suspecious is that there were no first hand accounts of christ at all. The bible (and even theosephus) did not come around until 100 or so years after the Jesus figure was said to have lived. The best there is amounts to hearsay. Theosephus doesn't confirm Jesus' existance, but rather that there were people who said they knew of the existance of Jesus. Friend of a freind stuff (just really old). Then there are similar tales from other religions (Horus is new to me, the pre-budhist writings are what caught my interest).

Add to this elements such as the census which caused Joeseph to make the trek (and ultimatly in the birth place of the Jesus figure). There is archeological evidence of previous Roman censuses, but not the one proposed in the bible. There is little evidence of Jesus' life beyond the hearsay of scholars generations later.

On top of that is clear indications that much of Judaeism was (we'll say) "lifted" from the Romans, one has to wonder if the tales of Jesus were not lifted in a similar fashion. I find it quite concievable that the figure of Jesus was an amalgimation of a variety of other figures just as Judeaism evolved from the influences of other gods and cultures.

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Chava
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Well, this is from my high school history class (what more authority do you need?).

Around the time of Jesus the Roman Empire had several wildly popular mystery religions (including Isis/Osiris/Horus and Dionysius) that appeared in various areas. All of the mystery religions were reworkings of older traditions with the emphasis on a dying and resurrected god. At this remote time I can't say what social condition in the Empire made these religions so popular, but I think they were especially attractive to women, maybe because of the role of the goddess who helps bring back the dying god. The idea presented by my history teachers was that the mystery religions nurtured a social climate in which a religion like Christianity could spread like wildfire. I think that it's possible that such a climate could result in an increased importance of the parts of the Christian message that seemed to fit the mystery religion pattern.

Chava

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Sparverius, Budgerigar of Fate
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(closest smiley I can get to a hawk)

Egyptian mythology can be very frustrating to make sense of, since the Egyptians never bothered to reconcile various myths of wildly different import. According to most versions of the Horus myth that I've read, Horus was the son of Isis and Osiris. Isis was DEFINITELY not a virgin, although at the time of conception, Osiris was dead, which might be kind of the same thing probability-wise. Another version of the myth is that Horus was the son of Hathor (means "House of Horus"), the goddess of love. Also not a particularly "virginal" goddess - in one myth she for no apparent reason "flashes" her own father.

I have NEVER come across the other stuff you mention (e.g. raising someone with a name suspiciously like Lazarus), and I have done a fair amount of reading on the subject. The resurrection bit might be a confusion between Horus and Osiris, who WAS resurrected by his wife Isis, but most of it sounds like it's been made up. Horus was a sun god, who represented the Pharaoh. He was never intended to take a Christlike "prophet" role. He was NEVER crucified between two thieves.

Unfortunately, ancient Egypt attracts a lot of nutcases. Ask if the people making these claims can give citations on these myths in any published scholarly works. Actual translations from hieroglypic texts would be convincing. Or even some reliefs on temple walls representing Horus-the-Crucified - heck, you can find all sorts of examples of the Christ story in Christian churchs, why not Horus at Karnak? Why just repetitious representations of hawks wearing the double crown?

Assertions that these myths can be found in some deep dark book unavailable to ordinary mortals like the Nekromicon are, well, mythical.

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idioteque
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Slightly off-topic, but does anyone know if the Necronomicon was an actual historical book, or a book of fiction written by H.P. Lovecraft to add to the mythology of his writings. I was convinced for years that H.P. wrote it, but my roommate (a Lovecraft nut) believes otherwise. I figure that if anybody would know it'd be the snopesters.

Thanks,
idiot"Cthulu"eque

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Ceci n'est pas Paul Unwin
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quote:
Originally posted by idioteque:
Slightly off-topic, but does anyone know if the Necronomicon was an actual historical book, or a book of fiction written by H.P. Lovecraft to add to the mythology of his writings.

It's a work of fiction. Lovecraft just made references to it. The real book was made as a reference to his writings.

Paul "ftang" Unwin

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idioteque
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quote:
It's a work of fiction. Lovecraft just made references to it. The real book was made as a reference to his writings.

Paul "ftang" Unwin


Thanks, you just helped me win a bet.
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Animal or god?
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Part of the problem is that there are common motives throughout various mythologies, which are autonomous of the mythological systems themselves... for example the Finnish Epic Kalevala contains elements which appear to have common ancestry with some from Egypt, India, China and even North America....

And while I think Jesus' life has been embellished and altered, I reckon he probably existed... it's not impossible for real people to gather a mythos around them... Charlemagne, Barbarossa, Elvis, Hitler, Joseph Smith etc all have done... and these pick up on elements from elsewhere.

"The bible (and even theosephus) did not come around until 100 or so years after the Jesus figure was said to have lived."

This has been debated endlessly... 100 is definitely on the extreme end, conservative estimates are generally 30-60 years after, although some would claim even earlier on the other end. It is said that Acts is one of the earliest books, and that there is evidence it was produced well before the end of the first century... I think though, that the NT bears the hallmarks of the time it emerged and that Jesus' views are in line with certain rabbis of the time... even one or two of the "Talmud" faction.

JK "Selective Jungconscious" Will

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Jon Up North
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quote:
100 is definitely on the extreme end, conservative estimates are generally 30-60 years after, although some would claim even earlier on the other end.
Even if we take the early estimates, we're still talking about 1 generation. The works still amount to hearsay. There is still a complete void of archeologic evidence to support several of the events quintessential to the Jesus story.

That said, road-side preachers claiming to be the messiah were reasonably commen at the time.

Jon

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Goes-hmmm
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quote:
Originally posted by Animal or god?:
...I reckon he probably existed... it's not impossible for real people to gather a mythos around them... Charlemagne, Barbarossa, Elvis, Hitler, Joseph Smith etc all have done...

There were and are lots of people that were convinced Hitler lived on after his "death" in South America. There are plenty of people that think Elvis is still alive. Leaps of logic abound.

Goes-hmmm

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D. Dodge Silver
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In the year 4002, I wouldn't be surprised to hear claims that Hitler had a wide variety of superpowers and was only stopped when FDR's kid hacked off his finger. It's not that hard for the truth to go completely nuts.

1900: "Boy, that Wyatt Earp. He was quite the lawman, really helped out the town."

1920: "Wyatt Earp? Greatest lawman ever!"

1950: "Wyatt Earp fought a whole gang of outlaws with only two guys helping him out."

2000: "Wyatt Earp is the man who brought law to the West!"

2100: "Doc Holliday was really sick, and Wyatt Earp healed him."

2300: "Wyatt Earp killed outlaws, raised them from the dead, and then put them in jail, he was THAT good!"

D. Dodge "Doc?" Silver

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Jaime Vargas Sanchez
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quote:
Originally posted by Otterpop, The Marvelous Pumpkin:
The story of a God that is born, dies, and is reborn - in its most basic and generic form - this, I think is something that is common to nearly every culture.

Yep - usually representing a phenomenon that we in our modern days have mostly forgotten: the advent of winter was a serious thing! It's no wonder that people were eager to believe in stories of gods who would resurrect in the spring; what would happen if winter lasted forever?

I read in Asimov's Guide to the Bible that usually these things involved lots of crying and whining at the death of the god and happy festivities at his resurrection; there's an opinion that there's a trace of that in the Bible, in the story of Jephtah's daughter. Which is a bit at odds with other parts of the Bible. Hadn't God repeatedly stated that he didn't want human sacrifices?

Some believe that apparently it's the Same Old Way of integrating earlier customs, and that "No, the women cry every year to commemorate the death of Jephtah's daughter" is equivalent to "No, we do these bonfires every year to commemorate the day of Saint John".

Jaime

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Mosherette
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You may want to check out The Jesus Mysteries, which explores the connections between the figure of Jesus and myhtological figures such as Dionysis, Osiris, Attis, Mithras and the like.

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KingDavid8
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I E-mailed the author Acharya S, who wrote "The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold" which outlines the comparisons between the Horus and Jesus stories, and asked him to provide me with any book or website that tells the version of the Horus story that he claims compares to the Jesus story. He replied that the current versions that we have are "biased" and "censored", and told me to look into the works of Egyptologist Gerald Massey who noted the similarities. I found a website giving Massey's list of comparisons, and it's nothing like the list Acharya S provides in his book. There's nothing on his list about Horus being born in a manger, raising El-Azarus, dying on a cross, being resurrected or anything like that. In fact, I consider the comparisons between the Lincoln and Kennedy assassinations to be far more striking that the list Massey provides.

Massey's list consists of:
-The ever-coming Messu (child) as Egyptian
-Isis, the virgin mother of Horus (Iu)
-Seb, the foster father to the child Horus
-Sut (evil) and Horus, the twin opponents
-Horus carried off by Sut to the summit of Mount Hetep
-Anup, the precursor of Horus
-The mummy Asar bidden to come forth by Horus
-Horus the Krst
-Horus, the bearer of Ankh (life) and Unscepter (resurrection)
-Horus ascending to heaven from Bakhu
-The revelation written down by Aan (the scribe of divine words)

So I have to ask myself why, if the actual story has the stuff about Horus being born in a manger, walking on water, being crucified between two thieves, etc., why didn't Massey include those on his list? And I also know that some of Massey's points are contradicted by most versions, like with Isis not being a virgin and Seb being Osiris' father, not Horus'. There may be alternate versions telling it differently, but how can we say they compare when they only compare on occasion? You get enough different versions of a story, and of course you'll find parallels to other stories.

David

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eagle eye
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quote:
Originally posted by Jon Up North:
quote:
100 is definitely on the extreme end, conservative estimates are generally 30-60 years after, although some would claim even earlier on the other end.
Even if we take the early estimates, we're still talking about 1 generation. The works still amount to hearsay. There is still a complete void of archeologic evidence to support several of the events quintessential to the Jesus story.

That said, road-side preachers claiming to be the messiah were reasonably commen at the time.

Jon

But one generation's worth of time doesn't necessarily equate with a generational change in people. The bulk of the New Testament, including two of the Gospels, was written by men who were eyewitnesses. So they wrote 30-60 years after the fact? Who wants to read the memoirs of a youngster? [Wink] And, pointing to a void of archeological evidence hasn't stopped Darwinian evolutionists from claiming gradual species changes over time. "We just haven't dug them up yet!"

[Thwack] (hitting Darwin with his own fish)

Regards,
eagle (sorry, I thought it was funny) eye

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TSO
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maybe slightly off-topic...
For those interested in this related topic (Jesus, historical or mythical), it is well layed out in a book entitled "Evidence That Demands A Verdict" by Josh McDowell. Written several years ago, McDowell was an agnostic, well-known trial lawyer who took up the debate on a bet. His well-thought-out research is documented in the above mentioned book.

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Gerard
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quote:
And while I think Jesus' life has been embellished and altered, I reckon he probably existed... it's not impossible for real people to gather a mythos around them... Charlemagne, Barbarossa, Elvis, Hitler, Joseph Smith etc all have done... and these pick up on elements from elsewhere.
You can even go further and prove by a+b that historical characters never existed. In the 19th century, a librarian named Péres, pissed off that people were claiming that Jesus Christ was another variation on the old solar myth, found out a lot of similarities between that myth and the story of one very famous french dictator, and proved that...
Napoleon had never existed! (In french, unfortunately. Don't know if an english version exists).

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Animal or god?
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I am not a Christian, in fact I've been accused of being anti-Christian, but Jesus was supposed to be a commoner, a working man... Our histories and records nearly always focus on lords and kings... most of the archaelogical evidences we find for people at that time are for the elite, who had statues and buildings made for them, or records with their names on them so even if Jesus did exist, he could well have been left out because of his class status.

I think the need to prove Jesus DIDN'T exist is an illogical extension of rational inquiry into his life... it seems apparent many of the details are distorted, but that's true of many other ancient people. If we claim Jesus didn't exist, then if you are completely fair, you've got to examine a long list of other historical characters... including the likes of maybe Genghis Khan, outlaws etc.

The resurrection of a god, also appears in the form of Persephone who went into the Underworld every winter. However I don't reckon this had an effect on Christianity, only a parallel tradition. The story of Baldur in Norse mythology is one of the more similar ones, but appears to be post-Christian.

OT
As it happens, I don't think Hitler did go to South America, but it would have been in his power to do so. Without a moustache, or with a beard he would have looked very different (as would Elvis with less hair)!
--------------------------------------------

Actually if anyone's interested there are a few parallels between the nativities of Buddha and Krishna, supposedly. Although if I list them, I expect them to be critically examined... bear in mind too, that I think the contact between Christianity and Buddhism has not been one way, and although Buddha was supposedly born in 600 BC (in even more shady circumstances than Jesus), many of the scriptures concerning him were written centuries later!

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KingDavid8
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quote:
Originally posted by Gerard:
[QBIn the 19th century, a librarian named Péres, pissed off that people were claiming that Jesus Christ was another variation on the old solar myth, found out a lot of similarities between that myth and the story of one very famous french dictator, and proved that...
Napoleon had never existed! (In french, unfortunately. Don't know if an english version exists).[/QB]

I translated that site using an online translator. It's still kind of hard to read (some words weren't translated), of course, but these seem to be the main points:

Napoleon is the French translation of the Greek phrase "Nai Apolyon" or "True Apollo" (Apollo being the Greek sun god).

Napoleon's mother was named "Letitia". Apollo's mother was named "Leto"

Napoleon had three sisters. They are the "three graces" at the courtyard of Apollo.

Napoleon had four brothers, three of whom were kings. They represent the four seasons. All but winter are 'kings' (spring is king of flowers, summer is king of harvests, fall is king of fruits).

Napoleon was born on March 20th, the spring equinox.

Napoleon had 12 active marshals, the 12 signs of the zodiac.

Napoleon had 4 inactive marshals, the 4 compass points (they don't move).

Napoleon attempted to invade Moscow, failed, and retreated south. This represents the course of the sun at the spring equinox, heading north, then turning south.

I'm not quite getting this one, but there's something about him starting in Egypt and moving west over a period of 12 years. This represents the movement of the sun (east to west) over the twelve hours of daylight.

David

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Kokopelli
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quote:
For those interested in this related topic (Jesus, historical or mythical), it is well layed out in a book entitled "Evidence That Demands A Verdict" by Josh McDowell. Written several years ago, McDowell was an agnostic, well-known trial lawyer who took up the debate on a bet. His well-thought-out research is documented in the above mentioned book.
For a good critique of McDowell, I recommend http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/jury/index.shtml
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Animal or god?
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McDowell is not bad for his "line of work", but he does present certain flaws. Still, like CS Lewis, he makes for okay reading even if you don't agree with him.
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Fusca 1976
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quote:
Originally posted by KingDavid8:
the claim that the Jesus story borrowed from the Egyptian Horus story, which predated Christianity.

What is their point? To prove that there wasn't a historical Jesus? Seems moot to me; the mythological references to Horus could easily be superimposed to a real biography. If there are reasons to think there wasn't a historical Jesus, they must be found somewhere else than in Egyptian mythology.

quote:
One guy last night was saying there are 300 similarities, including that Horus was born of a virgin,
This is false.

quote:
raised a man named 'El-Azar-Us' from the dead (note the similarity to the Bible's 'Lazarus')
This smells fish badly. The Semithic name of "Lazarus" would be Eleazar, or Leazar. The "us" ending is clearly a latinization; the Egyptians certainly were not involved in it.

quote:
, had twelve apostles,
Apostles? Why did he need apostles?

quote:
died, was buried in a tomb,
I don't think so. He wasn't human; he was killed (by Seth, who was a relative of him) and his body cut into pieces. If I'm not mistaken, his dead body underwent a series of cosmological processes.

quote:
and was resurrected 3 days later.
He was ressurrected, though I don't know if it was three days later. However, he was ressurrected by Isis, who recomposed his body piece by piece (unhappily, a very important part of him was missing, and Isis had to make a new one of clay).

quote:
Is there an alternate version of the Horus story that I'm missing?
Don't think so. In any way, Horus was a God; his life/death/ressurrection happened in mythical times and places, or, in the words of a Greek phylosopher, were things that "have always been, but never happened". Jesus is supposed to be a Jewish man, the son of a carpenter, born under Herodes rule and sentenced to death, as a criminal, under Pontius Pilatus. Comparable claims where never made about Horus (indeed, they would probably been considered disrespectful, if not heretical).

quote:
Is there any kind of basis to the claim of Jesus being borrowed from Horus?
I suppose Chava explained such basis correctly. If Jesus is a myth, certainly it has some points in common with Horus (and with many other pagan gods and demi-gods), but it is clearly original in a vast number of ways - of which claiming to not being a myth is probably the most important.

Luís Henrique

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Elkhound
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Animal or god?:
McDowell is not bad for his "line of work", but he does present certain flaws. Still, like CS Lewis, he makes for okay reading even if you don't agree with him.

Lewis and McDowell were not that similar. For one thing, Lewis was a much better writer.

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"The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch

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Noemi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Saci Perere:
quote:
died, was buried in a tomb,
I don't think so. He wasn't human; he was killed (by Seth, who was a relative of him) and his body cut into pieces. If I'm not mistaken, his dead body underwent a series of cosmological processes.

quote:
and was resurrected 3 days later.
He was ressurrected, though I don't know if it was three days later. However, he was ressurrected by Isis, who recomposed his body piece by piece (unhappily, a very important part of him was missing, and Isis had to make a new one of clay).

In Egyptian lore both of these points refer to Osiris, Horus's father, not Horus at all. If memory serves, Isis had to make that one piece out of clay so that she could concieve Horus.

This highlights what the most frustrating part of this "theory" is to me, the way it combines bits and pieces of Egyptian lore with no rhyme or reason. To me it looks like someone was specifically looking for similarities to prove their point, not caring about how gods were related, what god that particular bit of lore was associated with or what the actual progression of the story was.

Noemi

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Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult.
My blog, no guarantees about witty or intelligent content. My current projects.
Coveted Beads <---- our eBay store, new items being added somewhat regularly

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Fusca 1976
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by Noemi, fiendish cook:
In Egyptian lore both of these points refer to Osiris, Horus's father, not Horus at all.

[Embarrassed] Oh, yes, sorry! You are right. [Embarrassed] Silly me, but these Egyptian gods look all alike... dying and ressurrecting, I mean. [Big Grin]

quote:
To me it looks like someone was specifically looking for similarities to prove their point, not caring about how gods were related, what god that particular bit of lore was associated with or what the actual progression of the story was.
Yes... and I fear that some details are being filled in ("El"-Osiris ?!)

Luís "it looks everybody is ressurrecting around here; isn't it too much expensive?" Henrique

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Lemur
The Red and the Green Stamps


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There was an author named Josephus who was a contempory of Christ and mentions Jesus in his book Antiquities of the Jews.
Jesus probably was not born in a manger in Bethlehem because the Romans probably would not have initiated such a chaotic census, i.e. everyone go back to your place of birth to be counted. Gotta give the Romans a little more credit for logic. Additionally there are no Roman records to show a census of that magnitude.
John Crossan has written several books about the historic Jesus.

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Isaac
Happy Holly Days


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Josephus was born in AD 38, 8 years after Jesus is supposed to have died.

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ULGuy
The Red and the Green Stamps


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The best presentation of the case that Jesus did not exist is given by The Jesus Puzzle
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Animal or god?
The Red and the Green Stamps


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"Lewis and McDowell were not that similar. For one thing, Lewis was a much better writer."

I didn't say they were. I just said I can read both of them, despite not agreeing with them.

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