snopes.com Post new topic  Post a reply
search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hello snopes.com » Archived Forums » Religion Archive » Chronicles of Narnia (Page 1)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!   This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   
Author Topic: Chronicles of Narnia
fenchurch
The Red and the Green Stamps


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
Not sure where this would go, but here's what I heard & I'm hoping someone here might have verification:

The publisher of the Chronicles of Narnia is going to issue an anniversary set in which all references of Christianity have been deleted, thus making the books "safe" for use in public schools.

I think this is absolutely ludicrous for too many reasons to list.

Is it true?


IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Vorlon Ambassador
The Red and the Green Stamps


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
Almost certainly not. Since all of the Chronicles contain Christian imagery and metaphor, they'd have to toss out most of the plot developments for this idea to work. If someone *did* try to censor the books, there'd be very little left of them.
IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
MikeSez!
The Red and the Green Stamps


Icon 01 posted            Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by fenchurch:
Not sure where this would go, but here's what I heard & I'm hoping someone here might have verification:

The publisher of the Chronicles of Narnia is going to issue an anniversary set in which all references of Christianity have been deleted, thus making the books "safe" for use in public schools.

I think this is absolutely ludicrous for too many reasons to list.

Is it true?



It's a lot more complex than that. What the publishers have said is that they want to do two things. Firstly, the original books will be published as before. Secondly, they want to commission new Narnia books, in which the Christian elements are toned down.

Two problems here. Firstly, as Kosh has said, the Christian allegory is at the heart of the stories, and if you remove Aslan (for starters), there is no Narnia. Secondly, the stories are complete in themselves - ALL the characters are accounted for in The Last Battle, so there is very little room for manouvere in terms of new stories.


IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
ULTRAGLORIA
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


Icon 01 posted      Profile for ULTRAGLORIA     Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by MikeSez!:
Secondly, the stories are complete in themselves - ALL the characters are accounted for in The Last Battle, so there is very little room for manouvere in terms of new stories.


I strongly disagree with messing about in an author's universe if you're going to go straight against what the author had in mind in the first place.

Let's marry off Lord Peter's Bunter and give him a wife and son he never had in the original books! (This actually happened.)

Or, even better! Let's add more to Tolkien, but leave out all that messy language and epic back story! (Hasn't happened yet, thank goodness!)

Blech.

That said, there's plenty of room for additional stories. More set during the time of High King Peter and High Queen Susan. Tons of time between Lion Witch and Wardrobe and Prince Caspian. More time between Silver Chair and The Last Battle.

However, if they leave out all the allegory, not to mention making Aslan just some kind of magical talking lion, they'll loose a lot of the flavor of the original books--the reason we've READ them all these years! I hope Lewis haunts them.

ULTRA "Here, kitty, kitty, kitty!" GOTHA

--------------------
A Lie can run around the world before the Truth can get its boots on. - Terry Pratchett

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions; but everyone is not entitled to their own facts. - Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan


Posts: 2495 | From: Connecticut | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
abbubmah
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


Icon 1 posted      Profile for abbubmah   E-mail abbubmah   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
Found on MSN/Slate:

{link works now}
What Lewis Wouldn't Do

Good for Slate!

Then in the article:

"Narnia sequels without the Christianity will be like Deep Throat sequels without the sex."

Yeah... Slate... never disappoints.


Posts: 7942 | From: Louisiana | Registered: Jun 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Jenn
Layaway in a Manger


Icon 01 posted      Profile for Jenn   E-mail Jenn   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by bubba chow:
What Lewis Wouldn't Do

Your URL isn't working...for some reason http:// got in there twice. Try this one.


--------------------
"You're the opposite of troll. It's a compliment!"


Posts: 12086 | From: Alberta | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
megaira
The Red and the Green Stamps


Icon 27 posted            Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
Ugh, I can't even imagine someone trying to imitate Lewis's style and continue on with the series...not to mention "toning down the Christian" aspect of it. Ok, the guy was an athiest turned die hard Christian - his writing, while it might annoy some (don't read them then, geez!!) is part of what he was as a person...

That plus my absolute abhorrance of someone taking a writer's work and altering it. How can that *possibly* be acceptable in the first place? *snarl* And how, pray tell, does taking the original books and rewriting them, therefore using the original writers idea but altering them, NOT qualify as "altering" the original writing? It's ridiculous...let's rewrite Anne of Green Gables without oh, say, Marilla... because, you know, she lived with her brother and that can't be good... or, let's rewrite LeEngle's Wrinkle In Time series, but leave out all that confusing mitochondria and time warp shit.


At any rate, the idea of taking the charectors of narnia and further developing more stories is interesting - but still shouldn't be done. Look at what happened to the Little House books and how far left of center they went... or "Scarlett" - reading Gone with the Wind and then going straight to Scarlett is enough to make one heave. Alexandra Ripley could not, in a million years of writing, duplicate Mitchell's style, not to mention a huge WTF?!! was THAT about the Irish roots and "Cat" and the happy ending -that totally ruined the entire POINT of Gone with the Wind. Ughhh.

Messing with Literature = Megaira's Munchkin.

Meg "book 54 of the Narnian Chronicles, Aslan in Beverly Hills" aira


IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
megaira
The Red and the Green Stamps


Icon 13 posted            Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
ok, the article was good right up to the last line...that was annoying.

Meg "augahghahgagha" aira


IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Paul Unwin
The Red and the Green Stamps


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
I know that the Narnia books have Christian subtext, but I can't figure out what it is in Voyage of the Dawn Treader. Little help?

Paul "ever play the Dawn Treader board game?" Unwin


IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
megaira
The Red and the Green Stamps


Icon 01 posted            Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
good question... Possibly the message is regarding human fallacy? The general gist being a voyage they're taking with several trials along the way and each of them struggles with a specific weakness and has a specific strength -so it might be more particular towards finding your spiritual gifts and acknowledging and being wary of your weaknesses... the one was the fear of the unknown, the other was his selfishness/pride, another was insecurity, etc. Perhaps also an illustration that every journey is different and while we all come to the same end (Christian viewpoint), it may not yet end the same for everyone?

Meg


IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
MikeSez!
The Red and the Green Stamps


Icon 01 posted            Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by megaira:
good question... Possibly the message is regarding human fallacy? The general gist being a voyage they're taking with several trials along the way and each of them struggles with a specific weakness and has a specific strength -so it might be more particular towards finding your spiritual gifts and acknowledging and being wary of your weaknesses... the one was the fear of the unknown, the other was his selfishness/pride, another was insecurity, etc. Perhaps also an illustration that every journey is different and while we all come to the same end (Christian viewpoint), it may not yet end the same for everyone?

Meg


Nice analysis. For me, it's an allegory of life's journey - we set out to find what we think is right for our lives, and in the course of the journey we discover what the real truth is - and that whatever the journey does to us, there is hope at the end if we persevere and keep our faith.

Remember Reepecheep never wavered from his belief and his quest - and he got his reward at the end. Also remember Useless Eustace came to see that he had faults, but Aslan still loved him and wanted the best for him.

S
P
O
I
L
E
R
-
T
U
R
N
.
B
A
C
K

Eustace's parents are Mormons -that's what the references to their practises mean. Also, the end of Dawn Treader is the second-most open statement of who and what Aslan represents when they meet the Lamb at the Edge Of The World.


IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
trollface
The Bills of St. Mary's


Icon 1 posted      Profile for trollface   Author's Homepage   E-mail trollface   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by MikeSez!:
ALL the characters are accounted for in The Last Battle, so there is very little room for manouvere in terms of new stories.

Lucy wasn't, was she? Or was that Susan? I know that one of them "stopped believing in Narnia becausee she believed in boys and make-up now". As a result she never died in The Last Battle (and I always thought it was abit strange when they reacted with joy when they were told "actually, you died on the train"). It's been quite a while since I read them, and now I think I might actually be talking about Prince Caspian, but I'm sure there's one character that's unaccounted for, and she could be married with kids by now...

quote:
LeEngle's Wrinkle In Time series

Is that as in Ms. Who, Ms. Where and Ms. Which? I read (and loved) the original book when I was very young, but I never realised that it ws a series. I'm gonna have to be on the lookout, I feel.

Troll "saves nine" face

--------------------
seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears.


Posts: 16061 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
MikeSez!
The Red and the Green Stamps


Icon 01 posted            Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by trollface:
Lucy wasn't, was she? Or was that Susan? I know that one of them "stopped believing in Narnia becausee she believed in boys and make-up now". As a result she never died in The Last Battle (and I always thought it was abit strange when they reacted with joy when they were told "actually, you died on the train"). It's been quite a while since I read them, and now I think I might actually be talking about Prince Caspian, but I'm sure there's one character that's unaccounted for, and she could be married with kids by now...

Troll "saves nine" face


It's Susan - I wondered about that bit as well, but maybe she was meant to be like the seed that grew up amongst the thorns - the concerns of the wrold finally choked off the message she was given.


IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Luckia
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Luckia     Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
I remembered seeing something about this topic in the newspaper earlier this week, but while I was looking for it I found this web page

Interesting (but not unexpected) how most people that this is a Christian orientated book but there always has to be someone who says otherwise.

--------------------
If the world didn't suck, we'd all fall off.


Posts: 106 | From: Calgary | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
MikeSez!
The Red and the Green Stamps


Icon 01 posted            Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Luckia:
I remembered seeing something about this topic in the newspaper earlier this week, but while I was looking for it I found this web page

Interesting (but not unexpected) how most people that this is a Christian orientated book but there always has to be someone who says otherwise.


Oh, that is so so funny - the same people are the ones who put down and discourage reading Lord Of The Rings, despite the fact that Tolkein in his own way was as Christian in his writing as Lewis.

One of these days, I'm gonna have to sit down and start writing the article that shows that Christians have things to find in
the Harry Potter books as well.....

Take this part, for example.


quote:
This curse can be broken if the children take their places on four thrones, assigned to them as sons of Adam and daughters of Eve. One of Lewis' rhymes in the story explains..


" When Adam's flesh and Adam's bone.
Sits at Cair Parvel in throne,
The evil time will be over and done."

When we sit on the thrones of our own hearts and are on the thrones of our own lives instead of the Lord being on those thrones, we would then be our own gods--- leaving us as defeated Christians with satan the victor. We cannot defeat evil in our own flesh or power but only in and through the power of the cross and the power of the Blood of Jesus. For it is not by our "doing" but rather by our obedience that we overcome evil.


Jesus is sometimes referred to as the Son of Adam, in the sense that he is the only person after Adam who was born without sin. If we take that sense, then the children are the true heirs of the original King of Narnia, King John IIRC, who was the one chosen by Aslan to rule. So the line of succession given by Aslan/God is required for the curse to be broken.

Sometimes you can't see the beauty for the veil you insist on wearing.


IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
phildonnia
The Red and the Green Stamps


Icon 18 posted            Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Remember Reepecheep never wavered from his belief and his quest - and he got his reward at the end. Also remember Useless Eustace came to see that he had faults, but Aslan still loved him and wanted the best for him.

[...]

Eustace's parents are Mormons -that's what the references to their practises mean. Also, the end of Dawn Treader [spoiler deleted]
[/B]


The transformation of Eustace is definitely a story of christian redemption. I think caspian probably supposed to be king david. Goldwater/Deathwater island is all about love of the world, and the disaster that brings.

That's an interesting theory about Eustace's parents being Mormons! I thought it was a snipe at some random new-age religion, like Don McLean's "The father, son and holy ghost/They caught the last train for the coast."


IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
ISNorden
The Red and the Green Stamps


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
I checked the MSN discussion forum that mentioned the proposed rewrite, and left with mixed reactions:

  • On one hand, I recognize that an author's right to include whatever imagery he chooses in a book is inviolate--"rewrites" done without the author's permission and supervision feel like Orwellian censorship to me.

  • I also realize that C.S. Lewis was a Christian author who wanted to teach his theology through an allegorical series. He could hardly avoid having personal beliefs color his fiction, any more than another author could.

  • However, when I read one message on the MSN board I was somewhat perturbed: another poster mentioned the "World Ash" passage which implies a symbolic defeat of Odin by Jesus. I am not a parent, nor do I work with school-age children. But if I were an Asatru home-schooler (and I've known a few of them over the years), I'd avoid using the Narnia books in a language-arts lesson because of such material. I would not replace them with Christian-bashing fiction, nor demand that the Narnia books be redone to make them Heathen-friendly. However, I would find different children's books more consistent with my own religious values.

Ingeborg "people of the book(s)" Nordén


IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Vorlon Ambassador
The Red and the Green Stamps


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by MikeSez!:
Jesus is sometimes referred to as the Son of Adam, in the sense that he is the only person after Adam who was born without sin. If we take that sense, then the children are the true heirs of the original King of Narnia, King John IIRC, who was the one chosen by Aslan to rule. So the line of succession given by Aslan/God is required for the curse to be broken.

That's an excellent point. There is another interpretation, however.

The prophesy actually only says that there is a link or connection between the thrones being filled by humans and the end of the dominion of evil. It doesn't state what the relationship between the two events is, nor whether the relationship is causual. It's not like the Witch would be defeated if the children managed to race ahead and sit in the thrones before the Witch reached them, although that's what the Witch seems to have thought. The prophesy could simply mean that humans would not sit on the thrones until the evil period was ended: the causation could be the complete opposite of the Witch's interpretation.

IMHO, the whole point of the prophesy was that the Witch misinterpreted it, leading to her attempt to kill the children to prevent the end of her reign, which brought out the end of her reign. The true meaning was lost on her because of her evil nature and lust for power. I find it ironic that these fundies immediately leap to the same conclusion the Witch did - I think it says something about the real nature of their thinking. (No offense to any fundies out there, of course.)


IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Aslan
The Red and the Green Stamps


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
Here is a website you all may like
IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
katoklzmk, SLC Punk
The Red and the Green Stamps


Icon 01 posted            Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
Thanks for that link, Aslan!
On it, at the www.narnia.com/press.html
part it states, from a release dated June 4, 2001:
"The works of C.S Lewis will continue to be published by HarperCollins as written by the authour with no alterations."
So where did this report of a "rewritten" edition come from?
Speaking personally, I remember reading these wonderful books around the age of 10-11 in 5th grade. They weren't on any reading lists, and my friends (who were also reading them) and I often discussed them-amonst ourselves with no adults participating.
WE all saw the symbolism of Aslan/Jesus (including my Jewish friends!), WE thought that Eustace's parents were HYPOCRITES-not that they belonged to any particular religion/denomination. WE thought the "world ash" thing was about materialism...connecting that to ODIN seems an awfully torturous stretch!
What WE all had in cmmon was WE LOVED THESE BOOKS! They were fun, challenging, fulfilling, EXCITING stories! Yet WE also thought that they were written to be open to interpretation, or lack thereof, as I believe C.S. Lewis also intended.
But then again-what did WE KNOW? WE were just a bunch of 11-year-olds READING and DISCUSSING some books, right?
I find it rather ironic that Ingeborg is as willing to leap to the same kind of conclusion that some of the extreme fundies do; i.e. "It's what I heard" or "It's something I don't really understand" therefore it MUST be bad, not "What I've read for myself with an open mind".
I guess that was our problem as 11-year-olds, we had no adult to smash our minds closed for us.
And there's nothing wrong with taking them at face value; that is in fact the beauty ofte books; they're STLL wonderful!

Does anyone remember the passage from "The Magician's Nephew" of the Great Lion singing the world into creation? Or the descreption of Narnia at the beginning of "The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe"- a land where "it's always winter but never Christmas"!
PS-Phildonnia, that AMERICAN PIE quote isn't about religion (most people think), but that's ANOTHER discussion! Maybe I'll start THAT in Entertainment.

Kat "Yes-when I was that age there was no Internet, we had to READ for entertainmet!" O'Klzmk


IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
ISNorden
The Red and the Green Stamps


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by katoklzmk, SLC Punk:
WE thought the "world ash" thing was about materialism...connecting that to ODIN seems an awfully torturous stretch!

FWIW, I had some passages from the Narnia books read to me in fifth-grade classes and it didn't poison me or strike me as overly religious. (Then again, they were just excerpts in an anthology--not the WHOLE books--so the editors must have tried to keep their selections as neutral as possible for use in any school.)

I was not the one who originally associated the World Ash/spear passage with Odin; that came from another poster on MSN's board where the rewriting rumor had been brought up. The quotations that person used to prove his point may have been out-of-context; but when those were all I had to go on, it did touch a nerve--perhaps wrongly. (THAT particular excerpt never made it into my fifth-grade reader... )

quote:
I find it rather ironic that Ingeborg is as willing to leap to the same kind of conclusion that some of the extreme fundies do; i.e. "It's what I heard" or "It's something I don't really understand" therefore it MUST be bad, not "What I've read for myself with an open mind".

I was not condemning the books as bad literature, just saying that they contain some passages which a Heathen could take as implying "Jesus good, Odin bad, and the Lion is gonna kick your NFBSK". If I did include the Narnia books in a language-arts class for an Asatru home school, I'd have to throw in disclaimers: "Just because a story might say bad things about our beliefs, and I'm teaching this story--that doesn't mean I agree with it." ("The opinions expressed in this column are not necessarily those of the Times staff" sort of thing...)

quote:
Kat "Yes-when I was that age there was no Internet, we had to READ for entertainment!" O'Klzmk

Ingeborg "same here, actually" Nordén


IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Aslan
The Red and the Green Stamps


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
I was not condemning the books as bad literature, just saying that they contain some passages which a Heathen could take as implying "Jesus good, Odin bad, and the Lion is gonna kick your NFBSK". If I did include the Narnia books in a language-arts class for an Asatru home school, I'd have to throw in disclaimers: "Just because a story might say bad things about our beliefs, and I'm teaching this story--that doesn't mean I agree with it." ("The opinions expressed in this column are not necessarily those of the Times staff" sort of thing...)

The same could be said from the Christian perspective. In school I was required to read Ayn Rand. Never once was I given such a disclaimer (IE 'This may not be what you believe, but try to read with an open mind'.) Instead I had to read this book, or fail. I also had to write essays, and pass tests and pop quizzes. I had no choice in the matter.


IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
MikeSez!
The Red and the Green Stamps


Icon 01 posted            Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by phildonnia:
That's an interesting theory about Eustace's parents being Mormons! I thought it was a snipe at some random new-age religion, like Don McLean's "The father, son and holy ghost/They caught the last train for the coast."

I need to refresh my memory, but at the start of the book that is a description of Eustace's parents which mentions their strange beliefs. In that, I'm 99% certain there is a reference to certain aspects that clearly identify their belief system as the Mormon one.


IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Gibbie
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


Icon 1 posted      Profile for Gibbie     Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
Mikesez: (love that nick for quoting btw)

quote:
I need to refresh my memory, but at the start of the book that is a description of Eustace's parents which mentions their strange beliefs. In that, I'm 99% certain there is a reference to certain aspects that clearly identify their belief system as the Mormon one

From chapter 1 - The Picture in the Bedroom:

quote:
He didn't call his father and mother "Father and "Mother but Harold and Albert. They were very up-to-date and advanced people. They were vegetarians, nonsmokers, and teetotalers and wore a special kind of underclothes. In their house was very little furniture and very few clothes on the beds and the windows were always open

I don't read that as Mormon either. While the Mormons I've known have been non smokers and teetotatlers they ate meat, slept with the windows closed and I don't think they wore special underwear. Actually I assumed they were probably atheists. Not only based on this description, but the allusions that Eustace had never been exposed to anything resembling a religion. In the Silver Chair there's this quote, from early in the book as Eustace is promising Jill he's not making up Narnia:

quote:
"I'm not" said Estace. "I swear I'm not. I swear by - by everything." (When I was in school one would have said, "I swear by the Bible." But Bibles were not encouraged at Experiment House.)

I think Lewis is taking against the notion of raising children outside of the Church. Eustace being the example of bad turning "good" with God.

Dixie "gee, the Voyage of the Dawn Treader is in my hand, now I have to reread it. " Jack

[edited because I made it sound like they slept with the curtains ]

--------------------
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.


Posts: 3993 | From: Indiana | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Mild-mannered Lackwit is Llama-sama
The Red and the Green Stamps


Icon 01 posted            Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ISNorden:
I was not condemning the books as bad literature, just saying that they contain some passages which a Heathen could take as implying "Jesus good, Odin bad, and the Lion is gonna kick your NFBSK". If I did include the Narnia books in a language-arts class for an Asatru home school, I'd have to throw in disclaimers: "Just because a story might say bad things about our beliefs, and I'm teaching this story--that doesn't mean I agree with it." ("The opinions expressed in this column are not necessarily those of the Times staff" sort of thing...)

I actually think Lewis's original story made no mention of the World Ash. Some things were changed by the American editors and weren't present in the original version. Oh, good, this site mentions it.

quote:
from site:
Some very minor changes were made to The Lion... and The Voyage... for their American publication. For example, the name of the witch's agent is changed from 'Maugrim' to 'Fenris Ulf' and Peter's title from 'Sir Peter Wolfs-Bane' to 'Sir Peter Fenris-Bane.' In the English edition, Aslan says that the Emperor's magic is written 'in letters as deep as a spear is long on the fire-stones of the Secret Hill'. In the American he says 'in letters as deep as a spear is long on the trunk of the world ash-tree.'

The current (1994) Harper Collins American editions have been standardised with the English versions.


So the point is moot. Aside from that, even if Lewis had placed the World Ash into his story, interpreting the presence of a magic spell carved on its trunk as an attack upon Odin is a little extreme, isn't it?


IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
MikeSez!
The Red and the Green Stamps


Icon 01 posted            Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gibbie:
Mikesez: (love that nick for quoting btw)

I think Lewis is taking against the notion of raising children outside of the Church. Eustace being the example of bad turning "good" with God.

Dixie "gee, the Voyage of the Dawn Treader is in my hand, now I have to reread it. " Jack

[edited because I made it sound like they slept with the curtains ]


Nice thinking, Gibbie. FTR, mormons abstain from any stimulant, so they are supposed to avoid tobaccom caffeine and alcohol. The rest of it I really need to find a copy of Doctrines and Covenants to verify, but there is a stipulation that Mormon missionaires have to abstain from 'impure thought' during their time as missionairies. Older snopesters will remember the 'Mormon Sex Slave' case from the late 70's, in which special underwear was one of the more publicised parts.

The vegitarianism and austere lifestyle I will grant you is not part of mainstream Mormonism, and I will also admit personal prejudice in this - My mother was a Mormon, so I know a little bit about the church. It's also worth bearing in mind that the time Lewis wrote the Silver Chair was the time when the Mormons started their big missionary push in the UK.


IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
trollface
The Bills of St. Mary's


Icon 1 posted      Profile for trollface   Author's Homepage   E-mail trollface   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
From Luckia's link;

quote:
The fact alone that this story is so popular and widely accepted by the secular market---should immediately present a "red flag" in the Christian parent's mind when choosing quality reading material for their children.

Ah, yes the old argumant of "If non-Christians like it, too, then beware!". God forbid that well-written Christian analogys could be popular with people despite not being what they believe. Hell, I don't believe in ghosts, but I enjoy stories containing them.

quote:
Aslan, the lion, is the "christ-like" creature, yet when the children's fears are at a peak, Aslan is asked by the children if he will be with them in an upcoming battle, but his reply is.. " I can give you no promise of that". Jesus clearly says, I will be with you always and I will not leave you or forsake you. * 1Chron.28:20, Matthew 28:20. We as Christians have to deal with enough doubt, and doubt in the Lord's protection without help from reading material such as this. As a Christian parent it is my goal to instill "trust in the Lord" in all things and acknowledging Him in all their ways.

Surely they also ought to be taught to fight their own battles? Or is this person seriously saying that they want thieir children unable to cope without Jesus' direct, personal intervention?

Troll "I love 'em, and I've never thought of converting to Christianity. She must be right" face

--------------------
seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears.


Posts: 16061 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
OhKen
The Red and the Green Stamps


Icon 05 posted            Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
And just for the halibut, did you check out the "Home School Treasures" page on the infamous Harry Potter?

Big Steaming Pile of Dragon Droppings........


IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
pepperlandgirl-The Married Version
The Red and the Green Stamps


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
He didn't call his father and mother "Father and "Mother but Harold and
Albert.[sup]1[/sup]
They were very up-to-date and advanced people. They were
vegetarians[sup]2[/sup] nonsmokers, and teetotalers and wore a special kind of
underclothes[sup]3[/sup]. In their house was very little furniture and very few clothes
on the beds and the windows were always open[sup]4[/sup]

1-I have no idea what this would have to do with Mormons. We call our parents, "mom and dad"
2-Mormons are told to stay away from stimulants, however, there is nothing stopping us from eating meat. Some may interpret D&C to stay away from it, but that's not the case. It says that the beasts and fowl are put on Earth for us to eat.
3-Mormons who have gone through the Temple wear garments. I guess that could be considered a special underwear.
4-That has nothing to do with Mormons.

It looks like there are a few similarities, but I wouldn't draw conclusions from them. For more info on garments, etc go to www.lds.org the Church's official website.


IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
ISNorden
The Red and the Green Stamps


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
Judging by the details given in that quotation, I'd say that Eustace's religious background is supposed to be a composite of many churches' teachings. The underwear and abstinence from drugs/liquor do suggest Mormons, but the other details don't. (Seventh-Day Adventists are vegetarians IIRC--and I'm sure that at least one splinter church takes Jesus' warning "Call no one on earth your father" to the literal extreme. The bed-coverings detail doesn't seem to match a particular church or Bible passage, though...)

Ingeborg "hmmmm!" Nordén


IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
MikeSez!
The Red and the Green Stamps


Icon 01 posted            Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
OK, I agree (and I said it yesterday) that vegitarianism and the austere lifestyle are not part of the Mormon belief system. Apologies to all Mormons here. What they ARE part of is the ISKCON and Buddhist religions, so I think ISNorden and others are correct - Lewis was combining alternative religions which were becoming popular at the time he wrote Dawn Treader.
IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Jonny T
Little Sales Drummer Boy


Icon 01 posted      Profile for Jonny T   Author's Homepage   E-mail Jonny T   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
When I read the books, I never saw Eustace's family as being a specific religion; I just thought they represented the 'modern' way of living, as oppose to the 'traditional' way the other characters lived.
In the religious message context, I saw this as saying that 'modern' people today weren't paying enough attention to religion, and were starting to drift away from Christianity.
My interpretation may be because I hadn't been exposed to many religions at the time (I'm Christian, and didn't do RE at primary school, which was when I read the books).
While I'm here, I may as well share this article on Oz vs Narnia from Salon, which I found interesting.

Jonny "but Narnia doesn't have hanging munchkins" T.
[EDIT: name the quote in my new .sig]

--------------------
Hello, I love you - won't you tell me your name?
Hello! I'm good for nothing - will you love me just the same?

Greetings from the dark side...


Posts: 2731 | From: York/Reading, England | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Cold DecEmbra Brings The Sleet
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


Icon 01 posted      Profile for Cold DecEmbra Brings The Sleet   E-mail Cold DecEmbra Brings The Sleet   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
:raises another hand to vote for the "Mr. and Mrs. Scrubb weren't Mormons" camp.

As Johnny said, I just saw them as being "modern" - and remebering to think of this in a 1950s sense.

For some reason the "special underwear" accolade makes me think of a sketch dealing with "Operation Cerulean Trouser", the means by which Railway Lost Property offices across the land were filled with blue corduroy trousers by a dedicated secret force of men willing to enter train toilets and divest themselves of said trousers. The voiceover then described them escaping "completely nude; nude, that is except for Cellular Underwear, for man is born free but everywhere is in cellular underwear". I think this may be Flanders and Swann again, or it may be Beyond the Fringe. Someone help me get the phrase "cellular underwear" out of my head, please!

Embra "vested interest"

--------------------
I want you to lay down your life, Perkins. We need a futile gesture at this stage. It will raise the whole tone of the war.


Posts: 4495 | From: Surrey, UK | Registered: Jun 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
pinqy
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


Icon 01 posted      Profile for pinqy   E-mail pinqy   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
I'm with Embra. Especially since LDS had not made much progress in England in the 1940's. Reading them as a BSK I thought of the Scrubbs as "modern" or "progressive" especially considering the school Eustace and Jill went to. I always saw the Scrubbs as atheists.

From a more theological perspective, the Scrubbs were representative of losing connection with God. They followed the current trend of how to live right and the result was a dreary, drab existence. No joy.

pinqy

--------------------
Don't Forget!
Winter Solstice Hanukkah Christmas Kwanzaa & Gurnenthar's Ascendance Are Coming!


Posts: 8671 | From: Washington, DC | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Brad from Georgia
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


Icon 01 posted      Profile for Brad from Georgia   Author's Homepage   E-mail Brad from Georgia   Send new private message       Edit/Delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Embra:
I think this may be Flanders and Swann again, or it may be Beyond the Fringe.

Beyond the Fringe.

Brad "turn your faces to the wall while the gentlemen trot by" from Georgia

--------------------
"No hard feelin's and HOPpy New Year!"--Walt Kelly
Hear what you're missing: ARTC podcasts! http://artcpodcast.org/


Posts: 7581 | From: Gainesville, Georgia | Registered: Jun 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
  This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.

Instant Graemlins
   


Post new topic  Post a reply Close topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Urban Legends Reference Pages

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2