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Author Topic: Roane County High School
Amy Jo
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My fiance just sent this to me, asking if I thought it was true (he hates this stuff and actually hopes it's not true, so he can slam the person who sent it to him). Since I don't really know, I thought I'd ask this board. There is a specific time, specific place, and specific person mentioned in this email, which would help verification. On the other hand, it sounds a lot like the prayer by the Kansas legislator. Also, for someone to write this down, word for word, someone was either ready with pen and paper, or the speaker had written it beforehand and then released it, both of which I think are unlikely.

If you all could do me a favor and try to avoid beating a dead horse, I'd really appreciate it. We've had enough debates on school prayer to know how everyone feels about it. I just want some verification or debunking. Thanks!

quote:
This is a statement that was read over the PA system at the football game at Roane County High School, Kingston, Tennessee by school Principal Jody McLoud, on September 1, 2000. I thought it was worth sharing with the world, and hope you will forward it to all your friends. It clearly shows just how far this country has gone in the wrong direction.

"It has always been the custom at Roane County High School football games to say a prayer and play the National Anthem to honor God and Country.

Due to a recent ruling by the Supreme Court, I am told that saying a prayer is a violation of Federal Case Law.

As I understand the law at this time, I can use this public facility to approve of sexual perversion and call it an alternate lifestyle, and if someone is offended, that's OK.

I can use it to condone sexual promiscuity by dispensing condoms and calling it safe sex. If someone is offended, that's OK.

I can even use this public facility to present the merits of killing an unborn baby as a viable means of birth control. If someone is offended, it’s no problem.

I can designate a school day as earth day and involve students in activities to religiously worship and praise the goddess, mother earth, and call it ecology.

I can use literature, videos and presentations in the classroom that depict people with strong, traditional, Christian convictions as simple minded and ignorant and call it enlightenment.

However, if anyone uses this facility to honor God and ask Him to bless this event with safety and good sportsmanship, Federal Case Law is violated.

This appears to be inconsistent at best, and at worst, diabolical.

Apparently, we are to be tolerant of everything and anyone except God and His Commandments.

Nevertheless, as a school principal, I frequently ask staff and students to abide by rules that they do not necessarily agree. For me to do otherwise would be inconsistent at best, and at worst, hypocritical. I suffer from that affliction enough unintentionally. I certainly do not need to add an intentional transgression.

For this reason, I shall, "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's," and refrain from praying at this time. However, if you feel inspired to honor, praise and thank God, and ask Him in the name of Jesus to bless this event, please feel free to do so. As far as I know, that's not against the law----yet."

AND...one by one, the people in the stands bowed their heads, held hands with one another, and began to pray. They prayed in the stands. They prayed in the team huddles. They pray at the concession stand. And they prayed in the announcer's box. The only place they didn't pray was in the Supreme Court of the United State's of America - the seat of "justice" in the one nation under God.

Somehow, Kingston, Tennessee, remembered what so many have forgotten...we are given the Freedom OF Religion, not the Freedom FROM Religion.

Praise God that His remnant remains!



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Gus
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Well there is a Roane County HS in Tennessee, and the principal is indeed Jody McLoud. But this sounds like NFBSK glurge to me (but of course I disagree with nearly every point made in that silly speech). Still looking for more info...

here's their website:
Roane County High School


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Kathy B
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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It was read into the Congressional Record by Member of Congress. Zach Wamp of Tennessee, Wednesday, September 20, 2000

Go here and click on A POWERFUL MESSAGE ON PRAYER IN SCHOOL.

[This message has been edited by Kathy B (edited 09-28-2000).]


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Amy Jo
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I was able to verify the person and place, and I also wrote an email to Mr. McLoud asking him to verify if that speech is his.

My question is, how did we get such a perfect transcript? I don't think most public schools employ transcriptionists. The only thing I can think of is if Mr. McLoud actually typed it up, then read it over the PA system, then released the speech to the press or religious organizations. Either that, or the whole thing was recorded--but what's the likelihood of that?

And Kathy, how did you find that??? I searched under "Jody McLoud" and even tried the date, "Roane County High School football game" and so on. I didn't get a hit for that page.

[This message has been edited by Amy Jo (edited 09-28-2000).]


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tdn
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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Must...resist...urge...to...slam! Amy, that was downright mean of you to post that and then tell us not to pick it apart. I'm about ready to explode!

Anyway, it may be my over-active imagination, but I could swear we've seen this one before. And long before 9/1/00. Anyone else remember it?

And as far as if it had been written out beforehand -- it seems a little too poetic and symmetrical for an impromtu speech. My guess is that it was written out. No doubt some parent found it inspirational and requested a copy, and that's how it got released into the wild.

[This message has been edited by tdn (edited 09-28-2000).]


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Kathy B
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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Amy Jo--it was a piece o' cake. Stuff like that usually makes it to usenet, so I did a Deja search and found a complete Congressional Record transcript. Went to Thomas and got the corect URL.

[Edit--glad I checked my original post. The danged URL from a search expires within minutes! I reposted a better one.]

[This message has been edited by Kathy B (edited 09-28-2000).]


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Amy Jo
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Sorry tdn. LOL It's just that we've been down this road a bajillion and one times, and personally, I'm over it. But if you can't resist, go ahead. I'll just have to ignore it.
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Kiwibird
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quote:
Originally posted by Amy Jo:
Somehow, Kingston, Tennessee, remembered what so many have forgotten...we are given the Freedom OF Religion, not the Freedom FROM Religion.
[/QUOTE]

Since Amy Jo has graciously allowed us to comment on this, I will say that the wording of this speech and particularly the part quoted above, which is probably an addendum by the person who read it into the Congressional Record, seems to indicate a belief that there should be freedom for only one religion.

------------------
Kiwibird
It's the bird, not the fruit!
The Kiwi Bird Page


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Amy Jo
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The following paragraphs were added to the original speech--by whom, I don't know--but not by Jody McLoud (I think):

quote:
This is a statement that was read over the PA system at the football game at Roane County High School, Kingston, Tennessee by school Principal Jody McLoud, on September 1, 2000. I thought it was worth sharing with the world, and hope you will forward it to all your friends. It clearly shows just how far this country has gone in the wrong direction.

. . .

AND...one by one, the people in the stands bowed their heads, held hands with one another, and began to pray. They prayed in the stands. They prayed in the team huddles. They pray at the concession stand. And they prayed in the announcer's box. The only place they didn't pray was in the Supreme Court of the United State's of America - the seat of "justice" in the one nation under God.

Somehow, Kingston, Tennessee, remembered what so many have forgotten...we are given the Freedom OF Religion, not the Freedom FROM Religion.

Praise God that His remnant remains!


So, to make matters worse, someone out there felt they had to also editorialize.


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Kathy B
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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Breaking news!
Knoxville Tenessee News-Sentinal

Protest heard across nation

Roane County principal supports prayer

September 28, 2000

By David Keim, News-Sentinel staff writer

Jody McLoud, principal of Roane County High School, is getting national recognition for the statement on school prayer he read at a recent football game. News-Sentinel photo by Michael Patrick.
Since Principal Jody McLoud read a statement protesting the prohibition of pregame prayers at the Roane County High School football game a month ago, he has heard from dozens of supporters around the nation. ,...MORE

[This message has been edited by Kathy B (edited 09-28-2000).]


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Amy Jo
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AHA! Didn't I say this sounded a lot like the Kansas thing?

quote:
He said he was inspired in part by a minister who expressed similar thoughts to Kansas legislators.

Thanks, Kathy!


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Watsondogg
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You see, this is the kind of stuff that makes me wonder why anyone would be attracted to Mr. McLeod's version of Christianity. If my child said something like that, I'd wash his mouth out with soap and tan his hide. (Figuratively, of course.)

Watson "didn't He say "love one another", not "hate one another"?" dogg


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martiansatemybrain
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not to be rude i dont care what was said or who said it but the record of it if it was said was probably caught on VIDEOTAPE many parents tape their child cheering playing in band or on the field as a football player as im sure the teams coaching staff does too. Seeing as tennessee and football are like texas and football i bet some person or persons caught the little speech (act) on tape DUH!!

Martiansatemybrain-- "but i still tried to figure out how they couldve got it verbatum"


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neddy
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The national anthem is sung at all sports venues, and the next thing that will be up for debate is that piece that praises God in the 4th verse "In God is our trust".
Our forefather Francis Scott Key must have been a "God fearing man" too.

[This message has been edited by neddy (edited 10-03-2000).]


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Cynestria
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by neddy:
The national anthem is sung at all sports venues, and the next thing that will be up for debate is that piece that praises God in the 4th verse "In God is our trust".
Our forefather Francis Scott Key must have been a "God fearing man" too.


[This message has been edited by neddy (edited 10-03-2000).]


Oh, right. Silly us. It's perfectly acceptable for someone to shove their silly preaching at everyone and insult just about everyone in the process, mostly with complete distortions of reality. (end sarcasm)

Personally, I don't even know the national anthem, nor do i care to. But that's another issue. The issue here is the fact that even though this country was founded with a clause in it's constitution that states that all religions get equal freedom, christians can somehow do things that no one else can do. no other religion could have gotten up in front of that game and told everyone how evil they were. no other religion can wear clothing and jewelery with their symbols on it without risking harrassment at best. People seem to be confused and think "freedom of religion" only means Christianity. Either everyone gets it or no one does. Simple as that. THAT is why I, personally, have a problem with things like this.


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Kiwibird
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quote:
Originally posted by neddy:
The national anthem is sung at all sports venues, and the next thing that will be up for debate is that piece that praises God in the 4th verse "In God is our trust".
Our forefather Francis Scott Key must have been a "God fearing man" too.

Er, Neddy? When was the last time you heard anyone get past the first verse of The Star Spangled Banner at any venue? I don't think I've ever heard it sung anywhere. That verse is simply not an issue.

If our national anthem ever gets changed, I think it will be on the more sensible grounds that it's silly for us to be using a nearly unsingable melody from an 18th century British drinking song, anyway.

------------------
Kiwibird
It's the bird, not the fruit!
The Kiwi Bird Page


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Amy Jo
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quote:
Originally posted by Cynestria:
Oh, right. Silly us. It's perfectly acceptable for someone to shove their silly preaching at everyone and insult just about everyone in the process, mostly with complete distortions of reality. (end sarcasm)

Who was preaching? And what was the sermon? And who distorted reality?

quote:
Personally, I don't even know the national anthem, nor do i care to. But that's another issue. The issue here is the fact that even though this country was founded with a clause in it's constitution that states that all religions get [b]equal freedom, christians can somehow do things that no one else can do. no other religion could have gotten up in front of that game and told everyone how evil they were. no other religion can wear clothing and jewelery with their symbols on it without risking harrassment at best. People seem to be confused and think "freedom of religion" only means Christianity. Either everyone gets it or no one does. Simple as that. THAT is why I, personally, have a problem with things like this.[/B]

As I recall, when I was a teenager, the zen symbol and other Buddhist or other Eastern religious symbols were quite popular. I've seen many a person wear David's Star without being harrassed for it. I see pagan symbols everywhere.

You have your opinion, Christians have theirs. And guess what! On a board like this, freedom of speech means that BOTH groups can express their views, even if you do think it's off the wall. If I believe Christianity is the only way to heaven, I can say that. Likewise, you can say that I'm a close-minded bigot for saying that. Just don't forget that freedom of expression includes those who don't agree with you.

Amy "Jesus is the ONLY way" Jo

P.S. What I want to know is, is what McLoud did illegal?

[This message has been edited by Amy Jo (edited 10-04-2000).]


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neddy
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I just stuck my hands in my pocket and out came a silly little symbol of the USA, a dollar bill, a greenback, a George Washington, and I was still happy to see the words "IN GOD WE TRUST". It must be hard for those people who want "Freedom from Religion" to see or even touch this symbol of the USA.

[This message has been edited by neddy (edited 10-04-2000).]


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neddy
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Quote from Amy Jo.
-------------------
P.S. What I want to know is, is what McLoud did illegal?

I seem to recall McLoud of the clan McLoud lived forever. People did not like that either and just wanted his head. Mcloud must symbolize religion as religion will live forever. Those darned highlanders.

[This message has been edited by neddy (edited 10-04-2000).]


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Amy Jo
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quote:
Originally posted by neddy:
I just stuck my hands in my pocket and out came a silly little symbol of the USA, a dollar bill, a greenback, a George Washington, and I was still happy to see the words "IN GOD WE TRUST". It must be hard for those people who want "Freedom from Religeon" to see or even touch this symbol of the USA.

That's not true, neddy. Most people try to get their hands on as much of it as they can.


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just Lisa
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quote:
AND...one by one, the people in the stands bowed their heads, held hands with one another, and began to pray. They prayed in the stands. They prayed in the team huddles. They pray at the concession stand. And they prayed in the announcer's box. The only place they didn't pray was in the Supreme Court of the United State's of America - the seat of "justice" in the one nation under God.

Well, they may have all stood and bowed their heads, but were they praying?

I remember many times standing uncomfortably with a bowed head, but not praying. It was as embarassing to me as a couple necking and "dry humping" in the middle of the playing field. I was raised christian, but to us prayer was something done personally, privately. This public display was uncomfortable and offensive to me. It smacked of showing off or something.

Later, I wondered how my jewish friends felt about the references to Jesus (and never had the nerve to ask). Later I also wondered if there were people of other religions where I grew up (there must have been some!). If they did, they sure kept their heads low. Maybe for a reason.

On the other hand, I respected my Evangelical Christian friends who met every day, umolested, during school recess and lunch to pray.

God and prayer are present anywhere an individual allows them to be.

Institutionalizing prayer (or other religious observances) outside of one's chosen group of worshipers, especially in a healthily diverse society, denigrates not only those who disbelieve in your religion, but those who follow different paths within your own.

Li "finally sucked in" sa


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Jules
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by neddy:
I just stuck my hands in my pocket and out came a silly little symbol of the USA, a dollar bill, a greenback, a George Washington, and I was still happy to see the words "IN GOD WE TRUST". It must be hard for those people who want "Freedom from Religeon" to see or even touch this symbol of the USA.

I'm not really sure how this makes your point. Yes, there are religious symbols incorporated into our money, national anthem, and pledge of allegiance. This doesn't mean they SHOULD be there. The fact that someone decided to include them doesn't lead (in any way, and certainly not logically) to me having to believe in God.

While I don't necessarily read the freedom of religion bit as a mandate to remove such things, there's really no reason for them to be there either. They only exclude from the otherwise generous umbrella of America culture non-religous people like me.

People can believe whatever they like in this country. If you already have the majority of people agreeing with you, why is it necessary for you to have your God on my money and for my children to have to say "one nation under God" every day in school?

I just think the money/anthem/pledge thing is unecessary, but organized prayer in school, thankfully, is illegal. No one is stopping people from praying, just stopping them from forcing others to do so.

Sorry - I'm obviously new to the board and haven't been in on the previous discussions. But I think it's an interesting topic.

-Julie



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martiansatemybrain
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by neddy:
[B]I just stuck my hands in my pocket and out came a silly little symbol of the USA, a dollar bill, a greenback, a George Washington, and I was still happy to see the words "IN GOD WE TRUST".

NO because it says in god we trust not in god we believe making it a problem only for atheists.

which by the way if you dont believe in God or religion how come when asked their religion MOST atheists reply im atheist?

martiansatemybrain-- "and my last 3 dollar bill"


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neddy
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by martiansatemybrain:
[B]NO because it says in god we trust not in god we believe making it a problem only for atheists.
which by the way if you dont believe in God or religion how come when asked their religion MOST atheists reply im atheist?

I got lost on most points above. I was not sure if you were making a case for the atheist or the people who believe in some form of religion.

Neddy a religion.

[This message has been edited by neddy (edited 10-04-2000).]


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martiansatemybrain
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points being an atheist has no god and believes in no religion he would say i have no religion or beliefs im atheist by answering the question what is your religion with atheist he thus raises atheists or atheisim to religion status


and like i said it say IN GOD WE TRUST not IN GOD WE BELIEVE meaning the people who either designed or implemented the money were saying their part but not saying us United States treasury note users had to believe in god


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Kate
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quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
I remember many times standing uncomfortably with a bowed head, but not praying. It was as embarassing to me as a couple necking and "dry humping" in the middle of the playing field.

...

Later, I wondered how my jewish friends felt about the references to Jesus (and never had the nerve to ask). Later I also wondered if there were people of other religions where I grew up (there must have been some!). If they did, they sure kept their heads low. Maybe for a reason.

...

Institutionalizing prayer (or other religious observances) outside of one's chosen group of worshipers, especially in a healthily diverse society, denigrates not only those who disbelieve in your religion, but those who follow different paths within your own.


Well put, Lisa. Thanks for expressing it so succinctly and intelligently.

Kate


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Sister Ray
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If they can pray "spontaneously", can I strip naked and dance on the field if my religion requires that?

Seriously, you can pray in school! Really! All you need to do is bow your head and say prayers! Does anyone think that *forcing* someone to say a prayer will make them into a better person? I knew a Muslim student that during Ramaden got down on her knees during the lunch period in the classroom and prayed to Mecca. I knew lots of Catholic student that said Hail Marys before tests.

Prayer is not prohibited anywhere. Organized prayer is prohibited in a *nondenomational public place*. No one is stopping you from praying, just from leading everyone in prayer. Is this so hard to understand?

Sister "groan" Ray


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Ricardo
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The National Anthem is unsingable? I was always able to sing it just fine. Of course that might be due to my five or six years in the school choir, but I always found it easy. Am I the only one?

But we atheists do have a belief. That God doesn't exist. Not a religion, though. I haven't been asked yet what my religion is (well, not since I became an atheist), so I can't say as how I'd reply but I'd likely say "I don't have any religion; I'm an atheist."


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neddy
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Seems like a lot of fashionable atheist on this message board page. Kewl! At least you have a moral standard to follow.

[This message has been edited by neddy (edited 10-04-2000).]


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paiute
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quote:
Originally posted by Amy Jo:

Somehow, Kingston, Tennessee, remembered what so many have forgotten...we are given the Freedom OF Religion, not the Freedom FROM Religion.

Praise God that His remnant remains!


[/B][/QUOTE]

Oh, I'm all choked up...wait. No, that's someone's intolerant mythology being rammed down my throat. Sorry.


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jareth
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quote:
Originally posted by martiansatemybrain:
points being an atheist has no god and believes in no religion he would say i have no religion or beliefs im atheist by answering the question what is your religion with atheist he thus raises atheists or atheisim to religion status

I don't see that this follows at all. If I asked someone, "Who's your favorite sports team?" and they responded, "I prefer watching the news," does that make journalism a sport?

The assumption of religion is in the loaded question, rather than in the answer.


------------------
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect had intended for us to forego their use."
--Galileo


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Daryn Voss
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In censuses, the only option that applies to me in the "Religion" field is "atheist", so I tick that even though I don't consider athiesm to be a religion. Can't argue with a form.

Well, you've cheered me up anyway, by reminding me that I am lucky enough to come from a nation with a secular national anthem.


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Jack
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Here are my views on some of the subjects.

I think that they should be able to lead prayers before football games if they want to. I wouldn't feel forced to pray to Buddah if I were surrounded by a thousand Buddists being led in prayer. People have free will and many are very devout in their beliefs and are not easily made to change their beliefs.

Last time I checked, people are free to wear really any old symbol they want (from religions that is) and not be ridiculed. The only one that has problems is the non-nazi swastika.

I don't see the problem with those phrases like "In God we trust" or "under God". "In God we trust" is the national motto. What are you going to do, boycott money? I was on stage crew for the play "Godspell" and one of the actresses was a non-christian. The play was performed on school property also, but the school didn't pay for the production. The "under God" line isn't a problem because I haven't been to a school that made us say the Pledge in years. People need to learn to put up with other religions. When I was in 4th grade we did nothing but Jewish things around Christmas at school so that we could learn about the Jewish religion. In CCD we had a Passover dinner. It was fun.

I don't believe in abortion and I don't think I would even if I were not christian. Women should be able to do whatever with THEIR bodies, but not the BABY'S body. Their is some sort of thing in people that makes them so unique (like a soul), and its there from the very start, it couln't possibly be nothing but electrical reactions or something like that. I hate how its called "Pro-Choice" because the baby has no say in the matter.

Atheism could be called a religion. One of religion's definitions is: "anything done or followed with reverence or devotion". Some atheists feel very strongly about their beliefs, and some think that religion means only an organized religion that belives in a higher power.

People get offended too easily today (especially where political correctness is concerned). I could go on and on about the evils of P.C., but I will not unless I am asked.

Jack

People should be more open minded!


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JenniePye
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by martiansatemybrain:
points being an atheist has no god and believes in no religion he would say i have no religion or beliefs im atheist by answering the question what is your religion with atheist he thus raises atheists or atheisim to religion status

Not quite. Try looking at it this way:

  • Sexual reproduction means that the reproduction is attributable to sex between the different sexes.
  • Asexual reproduction means that reproduction is not associated with sex or the different sexes. It is the antonymn of sexual reproduction.

The word "atheism" is formed in the same way as "asexual" -- it is the antonymn of theism.

  • Theism is a belief in God (monotheistic)/gods (bitheistic, polytheistic, henotheistic).
  • Atheism is a disbelief in God/gods - whether that be the because of a lack of a belief system or due to a conscious decision not to believe.

This does not make atheism a religion. However, there are organizations that atheists can join. You needn't be a card-carrying member of an organization to be an atheist.

For some very thorough information on what atheism means, check out this site.

I'm not an atheist, by the way... but I would prefer to uphold their rights to religious freedom (freedom FROM religion, in their case) so that my freedoms (freedom OF religion) will be upheld as well.

Jennie "Panentheistic" Pye

[This message has been edited by JenniePye (edited 10-05-2000).]


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Cynestria
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Jack:

Last time I checked, people are free to wear really any old symbol they want (from religions that is) and not be ridiculed. The only one that has problems is the non-nazi swastika.

I haven't been to a school that made us say the Pledge in years.

People need to learn to put up with other religions.

People should be more open minded!


I'll respond to these in order.\

1) Obviously you haven't been paying attention to recent trends in high schools. Non-christian religious symbols can get you in to trouble. It's mostly aimed at pagan, but I had a friend in high school who was made to remove a star of david.

2) Again, you haven't looked at enough high schools. You can still be forced to stand and recite the pledge. That's a bit questionable as far as I'm concerned more because of just the fact that it's a mandatory loyalty oath extracted from children who usually don't know what it means than because of anything to do with "under God". I never said it. I got sent to the pricipal's office I don't know how many times because I wouldn't say it.

3) Yeah, and that includes Christians. If they were held to the same standards other religions are, or if other religions suddenly could get away with what they can, they would have a tantrum. "They" being used in a general sense, not 'every christian'. Freedom of religion is supposed to mean that no one religion gets more privileges than another.

4) Funny statement, considering the rest of your message. You seem to pretty much have said that absolutely everyone should have to live in a society where they are expected to live by the teachings of a certain religion, despite being assured religious freedom. You think that everyone should be legally required to act according to your beliefs. You insist that any evidence of the fact that Christians have more privileges is crap. But we should all be more open minded. Right.


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