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Author Topic: Roane County High School
neddy
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Quote from Amy Jo.
-------------------
P.S. What I want to know is, is what McLoud did illegal?

I seem to recall McLoud of the clan McLoud lived forever. People did not like that either and just wanted his head. Mcloud must symbolize religion as religion will live forever. Those darned highlanders.

[This message has been edited by neddy (edited 10-04-2000).]


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Amy Jo
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quote:
Originally posted by neddy:
I just stuck my hands in my pocket and out came a silly little symbol of the USA, a dollar bill, a greenback, a George Washington, and I was still happy to see the words "IN GOD WE TRUST". It must be hard for those people who want "Freedom from Religeon" to see or even touch this symbol of the USA.

That's not true, neddy. Most people try to get their hands on as much of it as they can.


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just Lisa
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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quote:
AND...one by one, the people in the stands bowed their heads, held hands with one another, and began to pray. They prayed in the stands. They prayed in the team huddles. They pray at the concession stand. And they prayed in the announcer's box. The only place they didn't pray was in the Supreme Court of the United State's of America - the seat of "justice" in the one nation under God.

Well, they may have all stood and bowed their heads, but were they praying?

I remember many times standing uncomfortably with a bowed head, but not praying. It was as embarassing to me as a couple necking and "dry humping" in the middle of the playing field. I was raised christian, but to us prayer was something done personally, privately. This public display was uncomfortable and offensive to me. It smacked of showing off or something.

Later, I wondered how my jewish friends felt about the references to Jesus (and never had the nerve to ask). Later I also wondered if there were people of other religions where I grew up (there must have been some!). If they did, they sure kept their heads low. Maybe for a reason.

On the other hand, I respected my Evangelical Christian friends who met every day, umolested, during school recess and lunch to pray.

God and prayer are present anywhere an individual allows them to be.

Institutionalizing prayer (or other religious observances) outside of one's chosen group of worshipers, especially in a healthily diverse society, denigrates not only those who disbelieve in your religion, but those who follow different paths within your own.

Li "finally sucked in" sa


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Jules
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quote:
Originally posted by neddy:
I just stuck my hands in my pocket and out came a silly little symbol of the USA, a dollar bill, a greenback, a George Washington, and I was still happy to see the words "IN GOD WE TRUST". It must be hard for those people who want "Freedom from Religeon" to see or even touch this symbol of the USA.

I'm not really sure how this makes your point. Yes, there are religious symbols incorporated into our money, national anthem, and pledge of allegiance. This doesn't mean they SHOULD be there. The fact that someone decided to include them doesn't lead (in any way, and certainly not logically) to me having to believe in God.

While I don't necessarily read the freedom of religion bit as a mandate to remove such things, there's really no reason for them to be there either. They only exclude from the otherwise generous umbrella of America culture non-religous people like me.

People can believe whatever they like in this country. If you already have the majority of people agreeing with you, why is it necessary for you to have your God on my money and for my children to have to say "one nation under God" every day in school?

I just think the money/anthem/pledge thing is unecessary, but organized prayer in school, thankfully, is illegal. No one is stopping people from praying, just stopping them from forcing others to do so.

Sorry - I'm obviously new to the board and haven't been in on the previous discussions. But I think it's an interesting topic.

-Julie



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martiansatemybrain
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by neddy:
[B]I just stuck my hands in my pocket and out came a silly little symbol of the USA, a dollar bill, a greenback, a George Washington, and I was still happy to see the words "IN GOD WE TRUST".

NO because it says in god we trust not in god we believe making it a problem only for atheists.

which by the way if you dont believe in God or religion how come when asked their religion MOST atheists reply im atheist?

martiansatemybrain-- "and my last 3 dollar bill"


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neddy
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by martiansatemybrain:
[B]NO because it says in god we trust not in god we believe making it a problem only for atheists.
which by the way if you dont believe in God or religion how come when asked their religion MOST atheists reply im atheist?

I got lost on most points above. I was not sure if you were making a case for the atheist or the people who believe in some form of religion.

Neddy a religion.

[This message has been edited by neddy (edited 10-04-2000).]


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martiansatemybrain
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points being an atheist has no god and believes in no religion he would say i have no religion or beliefs im atheist by answering the question what is your religion with atheist he thus raises atheists or atheisim to religion status


and like i said it say IN GOD WE TRUST not IN GOD WE BELIEVE meaning the people who either designed or implemented the money were saying their part but not saying us United States treasury note users had to believe in god


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Kate
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
I remember many times standing uncomfortably with a bowed head, but not praying. It was as embarassing to me as a couple necking and "dry humping" in the middle of the playing field.

...

Later, I wondered how my jewish friends felt about the references to Jesus (and never had the nerve to ask). Later I also wondered if there were people of other religions where I grew up (there must have been some!). If they did, they sure kept their heads low. Maybe for a reason.

...

Institutionalizing prayer (or other religious observances) outside of one's chosen group of worshipers, especially in a healthily diverse society, denigrates not only those who disbelieve in your religion, but those who follow different paths within your own.


Well put, Lisa. Thanks for expressing it so succinctly and intelligently.

Kate


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Sister Ray
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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If they can pray "spontaneously", can I strip naked and dance on the field if my religion requires that?

Seriously, you can pray in school! Really! All you need to do is bow your head and say prayers! Does anyone think that *forcing* someone to say a prayer will make them into a better person? I knew a Muslim student that during Ramaden got down on her knees during the lunch period in the classroom and prayed to Mecca. I knew lots of Catholic student that said Hail Marys before tests.

Prayer is not prohibited anywhere. Organized prayer is prohibited in a *nondenomational public place*. No one is stopping you from praying, just from leading everyone in prayer. Is this so hard to understand?

Sister "groan" Ray


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Ricardo
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The National Anthem is unsingable? I was always able to sing it just fine. Of course that might be due to my five or six years in the school choir, but I always found it easy. Am I the only one?

But we atheists do have a belief. That God doesn't exist. Not a religion, though. I haven't been asked yet what my religion is (well, not since I became an atheist), so I can't say as how I'd reply but I'd likely say "I don't have any religion; I'm an atheist."


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neddy
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Seems like a lot of fashionable atheist on this message board page. Kewl! At least you have a moral standard to follow.

[This message has been edited by neddy (edited 10-04-2000).]


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paiute
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quote:
Originally posted by Amy Jo:

Somehow, Kingston, Tennessee, remembered what so many have forgotten...we are given the Freedom OF Religion, not the Freedom FROM Religion.

Praise God that His remnant remains!


[/B][/QUOTE]

Oh, I'm all choked up...wait. No, that's someone's intolerant mythology being rammed down my throat. Sorry.


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jareth
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quote:
Originally posted by martiansatemybrain:
points being an atheist has no god and believes in no religion he would say i have no religion or beliefs im atheist by answering the question what is your religion with atheist he thus raises atheists or atheisim to religion status

I don't see that this follows at all. If I asked someone, "Who's your favorite sports team?" and they responded, "I prefer watching the news," does that make journalism a sport?

The assumption of religion is in the loaded question, rather than in the answer.


------------------
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect had intended for us to forego their use."
--Galileo


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Daryn Voss
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In censuses, the only option that applies to me in the "Religion" field is "atheist", so I tick that even though I don't consider athiesm to be a religion. Can't argue with a form.

Well, you've cheered me up anyway, by reminding me that I am lucky enough to come from a nation with a secular national anthem.


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Jack
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Here are my views on some of the subjects.

I think that they should be able to lead prayers before football games if they want to. I wouldn't feel forced to pray to Buddah if I were surrounded by a thousand Buddists being led in prayer. People have free will and many are very devout in their beliefs and are not easily made to change their beliefs.

Last time I checked, people are free to wear really any old symbol they want (from religions that is) and not be ridiculed. The only one that has problems is the non-nazi swastika.

I don't see the problem with those phrases like "In God we trust" or "under God". "In God we trust" is the national motto. What are you going to do, boycott money? I was on stage crew for the play "Godspell" and one of the actresses was a non-christian. The play was performed on school property also, but the school didn't pay for the production. The "under God" line isn't a problem because I haven't been to a school that made us say the Pledge in years. People need to learn to put up with other religions. When I was in 4th grade we did nothing but Jewish things around Christmas at school so that we could learn about the Jewish religion. In CCD we had a Passover dinner. It was fun.

I don't believe in abortion and I don't think I would even if I were not christian. Women should be able to do whatever with THEIR bodies, but not the BABY'S body. Their is some sort of thing in people that makes them so unique (like a soul), and its there from the very start, it couln't possibly be nothing but electrical reactions or something like that. I hate how its called "Pro-Choice" because the baby has no say in the matter.

Atheism could be called a religion. One of religion's definitions is: "anything done or followed with reverence or devotion". Some atheists feel very strongly about their beliefs, and some think that religion means only an organized religion that belives in a higher power.

People get offended too easily today (especially where political correctness is concerned). I could go on and on about the evils of P.C., but I will not unless I am asked.

Jack

People should be more open minded!


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JenniePye
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quote:
Originally posted by martiansatemybrain:
points being an atheist has no god and believes in no religion he would say i have no religion or beliefs im atheist by answering the question what is your religion with atheist he thus raises atheists or atheisim to religion status

Not quite. Try looking at it this way:

  • Sexual reproduction means that the reproduction is attributable to sex between the different sexes.
  • Asexual reproduction means that reproduction is not associated with sex or the different sexes. It is the antonymn of sexual reproduction.

The word "atheism" is formed in the same way as "asexual" -- it is the antonymn of theism.

  • Theism is a belief in God (monotheistic)/gods (bitheistic, polytheistic, henotheistic).
  • Atheism is a disbelief in God/gods - whether that be the because of a lack of a belief system or due to a conscious decision not to believe.

This does not make atheism a religion. However, there are organizations that atheists can join. You needn't be a card-carrying member of an organization to be an atheist.

For some very thorough information on what atheism means, check out this site.

I'm not an atheist, by the way... but I would prefer to uphold their rights to religious freedom (freedom FROM religion, in their case) so that my freedoms (freedom OF religion) will be upheld as well.

Jennie "Panentheistic" Pye

[This message has been edited by JenniePye (edited 10-05-2000).]


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Cynestria
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Jack:

Last time I checked, people are free to wear really any old symbol they want (from religions that is) and not be ridiculed. The only one that has problems is the non-nazi swastika.

I haven't been to a school that made us say the Pledge in years.

People need to learn to put up with other religions.

People should be more open minded!


I'll respond to these in order.\

1) Obviously you haven't been paying attention to recent trends in high schools. Non-christian religious symbols can get you in to trouble. It's mostly aimed at pagan, but I had a friend in high school who was made to remove a star of david.

2) Again, you haven't looked at enough high schools. You can still be forced to stand and recite the pledge. That's a bit questionable as far as I'm concerned more because of just the fact that it's a mandatory loyalty oath extracted from children who usually don't know what it means than because of anything to do with "under God". I never said it. I got sent to the pricipal's office I don't know how many times because I wouldn't say it.

3) Yeah, and that includes Christians. If they were held to the same standards other religions are, or if other religions suddenly could get away with what they can, they would have a tantrum. "They" being used in a general sense, not 'every christian'. Freedom of religion is supposed to mean that no one religion gets more privileges than another.

4) Funny statement, considering the rest of your message. You seem to pretty much have said that absolutely everyone should have to live in a society where they are expected to live by the teachings of a certain religion, despite being assured religious freedom. You think that everyone should be legally required to act according to your beliefs. You insist that any evidence of the fact that Christians have more privileges is crap. But we should all be more open minded. Right.


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neddy
The Red and the Green Stamps


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So I guess the essence of the original question posted here is true.
But a few lost souls had to get up on their Soap Box and comment on subjects they knew little to nothing about. It would have been better to write "In my opinion" and state it, rather than get all fired up.


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Dream
The Red and the Green Stamps


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*shrug* I actually haven't seen too many cases where there's been religous discrimination in my high school. It was a public high school. We've performed GodSpell (subsidized and performed in the school, and yes, we had non-Christian actors and musicians in the group). The Pledge of Allegience is said in the morning but you don't have to if you don't want to so long as you keep quiet. We've had valedictorians and Salutatorians employ prayer in their speeches.

Incidentally, in terms of "In God We Trust" on the backs of bills, it's not /always/ there. Some $100 bills in the 1950's were printed without. I saw a couple in my stint as a bank teller. We had to call in the local FBI agents and everything to be sure. Incidentally, it's mentioned somewhere on the US Treasury webpage as well.

Lastly, I can sing my part in the Star-Spangled banner, admittedly Bass. Personally, I think much music is outside of proper vocal ranges. *grin* To some degree, it's almost a subtle discrimination by us musically-inclined, making sure that everyone else can't properly sing the music...

And personally, I view atheism as a religion. There's a similar structure of beliefs, an informal catechism, and all the rest of the trappings. Personally, I feel they're misguided, but I'm not planning on forcing anything on them as I'm one of those people who feel it will all get sorted out in the end.

Of course, all opinions expressed are my own and I'll live or die by them as always.


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pinqy
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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I've gone off on the facts of the SCOTUS decision in Santa Fe Independent School District v. Doe for those interested.

pinqy


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Jules
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by neddy:
So I guess the essence of the original question posted here is true.
But a few lost souls had to get up on their Soap Box and comment on subjects they knew little to nothing about. It would have been better to write "In my opinion" and state it, rather than get all fired up.


Have you come to the conclusion that the "essence" of the OP is "true" simply because it is the view with which you agree?

The smug tone is a nice touch.

Jules


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Jack
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To Cynestria


I never said that everyone must follow a religion, however everyone has some sort of a system of beliefs. If this were not true than there would be many people who only acted on animal urges and who are totally unaware of the others around them and what they do. Then again animals of the same species have similar ways of acting so that could count in a way.

People should be more open minded, but this doesn't mean that you can't have religion. Some of the people who made important scientific discoverys were very religious.

All people are a very closed minded, even me, even you. If people were totally open minded then they would not be able to form opinions because they would always see things everyone else's way. Closed mindedness is good in many ways, just like open mindedness is. This doesn't make sense, but a lot of things in life make little sense. Its sort of like when people say that good cannot exist without evil.

By the way I go to high school, and (in all) I have been to enough schools to support what I have said (About nine counting elementary and middle school), we pretty much stopped saying the Pledge after 5th grade and people wear all sorts of symbols.

I still think that if they want to pray than they should be able to do so and that people should be able to dissagree. People need to put up with it. Lots of Christians put up with the beliefs of others. Christians get favoitism because we have a 70% majority (or so the encyclopedia says). Athiests and others get favoritism in some respects also.

Jack
P.S. It is still MY opinion.
People STILL should be more open minded and show Speedy Gonzales cartoons!


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Cynestria
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Jack:
Christians get favoitism because we have a 70% majority (or so the encyclopedia says).

Athiests and others get favoritism in some respects also.



A) The fact that there are more Christians than other religions doesn't mean that freedom of religion isn't supposed to apply equally to everyone.

B) Please, tell me what favoritism non-Christians get, because I've never seen an example of this that wasn't actually someone whining about not getting their way. And I don't mean that to sound rude, I'm really just curious what you mean.


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Jack
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To Cynestria

I never said that freedom of religion shouldn't apply egually to everyone, just that Christians get favored due to a majority. This is why stores sell tons of Christmas stuff, but don't sell tons of other holiday decorations for other religions. If you had 1000 people of one religion and only 5 or so of another living on an island, then who do you think will get the favoritism? Things will never be perfectly equal as long as there is a majority of one religios group.
At times, some christans have recieved more favoritism than others (like Protestants over Catholics).

About the bias going the other way, it is not a very large bias, more of a media and Political Correctness bias. Sort of the "unenlightened Christians oppressing everyone" mentality. They seem to favor people that believe in evolution and pro choice too. Most minority religions are somewhat ignored unless you learn about them in school.

At least you didn't dissagree with my "Pro Life" opinions.

Jack


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Cynestria
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Jack:
To Cynestria

I never said that freedom of religion shouldn't apply egually to everyone, just that Christians get favored due to a majority. This is why stores sell tons of Christmas stuff, but don't sell tons of other holiday decorations for other religions. If you had 1000 people of one religion and only 5 or so of another living on an island, then who do you think will get the favoritism? Things will never be perfectly equal as long as there is a majority of one religios group.
At times, some christans have recieved more favoritism than others (like Protestants over Catholics).

About the bias going the other way, it is not a very large bias, more of a media and Political Correctness bias. Sort of the "unenlightened Christians oppressing everyone" mentality. They seem to favor people that believe in evolution and pro choice too. Most minority religions are somewhat ignored unless you learn about them in school.

At least you didn't dissagree with my "Pro Life" opinions.

Jack


In terms of selling decorations for holidays, that's to be expected. But I'm talking more about people being allowed to express their religion than people being able to walk into Wal-Mart and buy decorations for it.

As far as media bias, everyone thinks the media is biased. It isn't any more biased against Christianity than it is against whatever other group happens to have done something at the moment. I've heard Christians complain that it's biased, I've heard every kind of non-Christians. I've heard conservatives insist the paper is liberal and liberals insist it's conservative. Everyone thinks it's biased.

And I do disagree with your pro-life stand, but as long as you don't start ranting about how anyone who doesn't agree with you should die, I also respect it. That's why I didn't say anything about that.


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bhd8ball
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quote:
Originally posted by Dream:
Incidentally, in terms of "In God We Trust" on the backs of bills, it's not /always/ there. Some $100 bills in the 1950's were printed without. I saw a couple in my stint as a bank teller. We had to call in the local FBI agents and everything to be sure. Incidentally, it's mentioned somewhere on the US Treasury webpage as well.

B]



Didn't you know: Dwight Eisenhower, president after Truman (remember), added "In God We Trust", to the pledge and to money.
This is the same president that created the Interstate highway system.

Just what do they teach in history class nowadays?

JH


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BrianB
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
Later, I wondered how my jewish friends felt about the references to Jesus (and never had the nerve to ask). Later I also wondered if there were people of other religions where I grew up (there must have been some!). If they did, they sure kept their heads low. Maybe for a reason.

When I went to junior high and high school (gets out his cane...) back in the 70s, you risked getting your a@@ kicked if you acknowledged that you were anything other than Christian. (I can speak from personal experience here.) I was constantly afraid that I would be "outed" as an agnostic. One time during a dinner given for the high school band, I bowed my head with the students who were praying so I wouldn't be discovered.
The worst of it, however, was that there was an English teach/track coach at my high school who actively recruited students to join Calvary Chapel during class time. (I kid you not.) These recruits would then try to convert other students. For example, one of his converts, a kid named Terry, was constantly trying to convert me. Fortunately, he was a pretty nice guy and I was just able to shrug off his attempts at proselytizing.
The good news is that things have changed dramatically there for the better. I have a niece who's 12 years younger than I am who went to the same junior high and high schools. While she also experienced many attempts by evangelical Christians to convert her, she told me that non-Christians were not only tolerated but respected as well. She was able to openly tell people she was agnostic. In addition, that knucklehead teacher who was proselytizing students had retired!
So while Mr. McCloud might bitch and moan about separation of church and state becoming a reality, I say "hallelujah." (Metaphorically speaking, of course.)
Brian "school of hard Knox" B

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Kate
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by Cynestria:
And I do disagree with your pro-life stand, but as long as you don't start ranting about how anyone who doesn't agree with you should die, I also respect it. That's why I didn't say anything about that.

Cynestria, you're so much more tolerant than I am. The reason I didn't say anything is that I consider the opinions of a little boy (still in high school) who will never be pregnant, will never face being left holding the baby, has never had a severely handicapped child and probably has never been involved with anyone who is facing any of these situations simply has no basis of experience whatsoever to hold inflexible views on abortion.

Unless, of course, "Jack" is actually a little girl, in which case I'm merely sorry for her.

Kate "tried to walk away but failed" S

[This message has been edited by Kate (edited 10-06-2000).]


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Amy Jo
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quote:
Originally posted by Kate:
Cynestria, you're so much more tolerant than I am. The reason I didn't say anything is that I consider the opinions of a little boy (still in high school) who will never be pregnant, will never face being left holding the baby, has never had a severely handicapped child and probably has never been involved with anyone who is facing any of these situations simply has no basis of experience whatsoever to hold inflexible views on abortion.

Unless, of course, "Jack" is actually a little girl, in which case I'm merely sorry for her.

Kate "tried to walk away but failed" S

[This message has been edited by Kate (edited 10-06-2000).]


So what if you're a woman who is young (22) with an unplanned pregnancy and is still pro-life? Do you feel sorry for me? I sure hope not, as I'm capable of making intelligent choices.

Maybe you can't respect the views of a teenage boy, but I sure hope you will respect the views of another woman, even if you don't agree with her.


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Jack
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First off I'll have to agree with Cynestria about how everyone thinks the media is biased in different ways, it just depends what side of the argument you are on.

Yes, I am a boy, however that doesn't mean that I have no business forming an opinion about abortion. It is truly sad that the opinions of someone means nothing to you just because they are a "little boy, still in high school" There are women who are pro life too, do their opinions count.

Should someone not be born if they are to be dissabled? Maybe a baby should be checked to see if they are to be perfect in every way before they are born, I'm shure that there would be a lot less people around if that happened. Also, does a woman have to go through all of what you mentioned to have an opinion or do they just need to be a woman?
And what about the father, it takes two to make a baby you know.

I think of abortion as a moral issue, and I'm allowed to have morals.

Jack


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TumbleWeed
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quote:

Didn't you know: Dwight Eisenhower, president after Truman (remember), added "In God We Trust", to the pledge and to money.
This is the same president that created the Interstate highway system.

Just what do they teach in history class nowadays?

JH

[/B]



The Mercury Dime, Standing Liberty Quarter, and Walking Liberty Half Dollar all include the enscription 'In God We Trust' and began circulation in 1916, long before Eisenhower became President. The first coin to include the enscription was the two-cent piece, issued from 1864-1873. Unless you mean that Eisenhower added 'In God We Trust' to paper money.


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Kate
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quote:
Originally posted by Amy Jo:
So what if you're a woman who is young (22) with an unplanned pregnancy and is still pro-life? Do you feel sorry for me? I sure hope not, as I'm capable of making intelligent choices.

Maybe you can't respect the views of a teenage boy, but I sure hope you will respect the views of another woman, even if you don't agree with her.


I said nothing about whether I agreed with Jack's views. I said that he had no basis of experience on which to base such inflexible views. I implied that I don't respect views on this subject reached without experience and that, if he is a schoolgirl, experience may one day teach her more tolerance. Since such experience is almost always painful (as in your case), I'm sorry for someone who is likely to learn through experience.

Kate


Posts: 2451 | From: Hong Kong/Cairns | Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Amy Jo
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Kate, I'm not sure where you're coming from. Must one experience one of them negatives of a pregnancy that you listed in order to hold a truly informed view on abortion? That doesn't make any sense to me.

I was pro-life (i.e., I believe the baby is a human, therefore a sacred life which deserves to live) before my pregnancy, and my views haven't changed one iota since then. They never will. I would have to be in an extreme situation to even consider having an abortion.

People of all ages and in all walks of life have their opinions on abortion, and are entitled to them. Just because Jack is a teenager (and calling him "a little boy" appeared to me to be an intentional insult) doesn't mean that he can't have his opinion or is even ignorant of the facts. It also doesn't mean that he will change his views somewhere down the road, after he's lived life a little.

Face it, some people are going to be pro-life and others are going to be pro-choice. You'll get nothing out of it except high blood pressure to get angry at every pro-lifer that comes along. Jack didn't do anything except state his opinion, which, I recall, is an important thing for all people on this board to respect.


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paiute
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jack:
[B]First off I'll have to agree with Cynestria about how everyone thinks the media is biased in different ways, it just depends what side of the argument you are on.

Yes, I am a boy, however that doesn't mean that I have no business forming an opinion about abortion.

The discussion reminded me of one of Gene Burns' (cranky semi-libertarian erudite talk show host) quotes: "If men could become pregnant, the right to abortion would be sacrosanct."


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DogoN
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quote:
Originally posted by neddy:
So I guess the essence of the original question posted here is true.
But a few lost souls had to get up on their Soap Box and comment on subjects they knew little to nothing about. It would have been better to write "In my opinion" and state it, rather than get all fired up.


What are these subjects "they knew little to nothing about"? I for one, would be very interested in tapping into your vast expertise of the subject.....


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