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Author Topic: Anti-Muslim "History Quiz"
Ghost on Toast
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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This popped into my inbox today and really NFBSK'ed me off..


QUOTE] >>HISTORY QUIZ
>> Please pause a moment, reflect back, The events are actual cuts from

>> past history. They actually happened!!!
>> Do you remember?
>> 1. In 1968 Bobby Kennedy was shot and killed by:
>>a. Superman
>>b. Jay Lenno
>>c. Harry Potter
>>d. Muslim male extremist between the ages of 17 and 40
>>
>>2. In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and
massacred
>>by:
>>a. Olga Corbett
>>b. Sitting Bull
>>c. Arnold Schwarzenegger
>>d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
>>
>>3. In 1979, the US embassy in Iran was taken over by:
>>a. Lost Norwegians
>>b. Elvis
>>c. A tour bus full of 80-year-old women
>>d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
>>
>>4.During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon
by:
>>a. John Dillinger
>>b. The King of Sweden
>>c. The Boy Scouts
>>d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
>>
>>5. In 1983, the US Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:
>>a. A pizza delivery boy
>>b. Pee Wee Herman
>>c. Geraldo Rivera
>>d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
>>
>>6. In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70 year
old
>>American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard in his wheelchair
by:
>>a. The Smurfs
>>b. Davy Jones
>>c. The Little Mermaid
>>d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
>>
>>7.In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a US Navy diver
>>trying to rescue passengers was murdered by:
>>a. Captain Kidd
>>b. Charles Lindberg
>>c. Mother Teresa
>>d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
>>
>>8.In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:
>>a. Scooby Doo
>>b. The Tooth Fairy
>>c. Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid
>>d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
>>
>>9. In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by:
>>a. Richard Simmons
>>b. Grandma Moses
>>c. Michael Jordan
>>d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
>>
>>10. In 1998, the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by:
>>a. Mr. Rogers
>>b. Hillary Clinton, to distract attention from Wild Bill' s women
problems
>>c. The World Wrestling Federation
>>d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
>>
>>11.On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked; two were used as missiles
to
>>take out the World Trade Centers and of the remaining two, one crashed

>>into the US Pentagon and the other was diverted and crashed by the
>>passengers. Thousands of people were killed by:
>>a. Bugs Bunny, Wiley E. Coyote, Daffy Duck and Elmer Fudd
>>b. The Supreme Court of Florida
>>c. Mr. Bean
>>d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
>>
>>12. In 2002 the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against:
>>a. Enron
>>b. The Lutheran Church
>>c. The NFL
>>d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
>>
>>13. In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by:
>>a. Bonnie and Clyde
>>b. Captain Kangaroo
>>c. Billy Graham
>>d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
>>
>>14. 2003 Two night clubs where blown up in peaceful Bali, Indonesia.
>>Killing 200 tourists and the economy of Bali for years:
>>a. Disallusioned Nazis
>>b. Chinese merchants.
>>c. Indonesian seperatists
>>d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
>>
>>Nope, I really don't see a pattern here to justify profiling, do you?
>>So, to ensure we Americans never offend anyone, particularly fanatics
>>intent on killing us, airport security screeners will no longer be
allowed
>>to profile certain people. They must conduct random searches of
>>80-year-old women, little kids, airline pilots with proper
identification,
>>secret agents who are members of the President's security detail,
85-year
>>old Congressmen with metal hips, and Medal of Honor winning and former

>>Governor Joe Foss, but leave Muslim males between the ages 17 and 40
alone
>>because of profiling.
>> Let's send this to as many people as we can so that the Gloria
Aldreds
>> and other dunder-headed attorneys along with Federal Justices that
want
>> to thwart common sense, feel doubly ashamed of themselves - if they
have
>> any such sense.
>> As the writer of the award winning story "Forrest Gump" so aptly put
it,
>> "Stupid is as stupid does."
>> Come on people wake up!!!
>>
>>Keep this going. Pass it on to everyone in your address book.[/QUOTE]

Anyone want to commment and deconstruct this?

Always a good idea to fight hate with more hate ....not.

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skeptic
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3000 people killed in the Northern Irish 'troubles'. I didn't notice too many Muslims among the killers.
Peru - tens of thousands killed by non-muslim terrorists.
Rwanda - hundreds of thousands dead. Don't remember any Muslim faction.
You get the idea.

--------------------
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Doc J.
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by skeptic:
3000 people killed in the Northern Irish 'troubles'. I didn't notice too many Muslims among the killers.
Peru - tens of thousands killed by non-muslim terrorists.
Rwanda - hundreds of thousands dead. Don't remember any Muslim faction.
You get the idea.

But none of your examples present any threat (specific or implied) to the USA or it's citizens.

I'm not defending racial profiling, but I am questioning your logic.

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BlueStar
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History-a-chow
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Ghost on Toast
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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Thanks BS
x

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It's been a while but I'm back!!

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Panda_Marie
The Red and the Green Stamps


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Ignorant, racist e-mail sent by:

A. Loch Ness Monster
B. Big Foot
C. Kidney stealing one-night stand
D. Ignorant, racist with nothing better to do with their time then perpetuate ignorance and racism in society via their computer in their mommies basement while taking a break from masterbating to beastialty porn

He was right about one thing, "Stupid is as stupid does."

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Soviet Kitsch
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no one ever brings up the Crusades, abortion clinic bombers...no, just Muslims are bloodthirsty crazies. There's no such thing as a Christian extremist. No, sir.
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Panda_Marie
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quote:
Originally posted by Soviet Kitsch:
no one ever brings up the Crusades, abortion clinic bombers...no, just Muslims are bloodthirsty crazies. There's no such thing as a Christian extremist. No, sir.

Oh, of COURSE not. No white or Christian people have ever done ANYTHING wrong. [Roll Eyes]

Panda "my sarcasm is dripping all over my clean floors" Marie

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MacLloyd
God Rest Ye Merry Merchants


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At the risk of getting called an -
quote:
Ignorant, racist with nothing better to do with their time then perpetuate ignorance and racism in society via their computer in their mommies basement while taking a break from masterbating to beastialty porn
by PandaMarie, I would like to say that it makes more sense to look for individuals who may belong to a group that has openly declared war on, well everyone who does not agree with them, than say my 85 year old grandmother.

Since 9/11, my grandmother, who flies regularly, has not been able to board a plane without geting her bags searched. She has taken to arriving at the airport 3 to 4 hours early because she knows her bags will be searched. This is supposedly a random occurance, but in dozens of flights, not once have they failed to ask her to step out of the line and open her bags. I have witnessed this myself on six separate occasions.

I ask why they are searching her bags, and am told it is random, but one time, the searcher told me that the "elderly" are more susceptible to having something placed in their luggage unawares.

Now my grandma may be 85, but she is sharp as a tack and smarter than most people I know. So, is this a reasonable precaution? And if not, why aren't more people upset that the very old and the very young are singled out more than the average traveler.

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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
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Perhaps because the very old and the very young aren't actually singled out more than the average traveller?

--------------------
"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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Hero_Mike
Happy Holly Days


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This list just starts out on the wrong foot. Bobby Kennedy may have been killed by Sirhan Bishara Sirhan, which does sound like a muslim name. However, he is a Christian born in Jerusalem.

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MacLloyd
God Rest Ye Merry Merchants


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And perhaps the greatest perpetrators of international terrorism are indeed Muslim extremists.

--------------------
"May you make the Yuletide pay!"

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pinqy
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by MacLloyd:
I would like to say that it makes more sense to look for individuals who may belong to a group that has openly declared war on, well everyone who does not agree with them, than say my 85 year old grandmother.


But that's the tricky part...who are we talking about? Muslims? 30% of Muslims in the US are African-American. But I've never heard of Nation of Islam involved in terrorist acts. Arabs? The majority of Arabs in the US are Lebanese Christians. Middle aged White guys? There just aren't any clearly defined "groups" to be targetted.

pinqy

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Panda_Marie
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by MacLloyd:
At the risk of getting called an -
quote:
Ignorant, racist with nothing better to do with their time then perpetuate ignorance and racism in society via their computer in their mommies basement while taking a break from masterbating to beastialty porn
by PandaMarie, I would like to say that it makes more sense to look for individuals who may belong to a group that has openly declared war on, well everyone who does not agree with them, than say my 85 year old grandmother.

Since 9/11, my grandmother, who flies regularly, has not been able to board a plane without geting her bags searched. She has taken to arriving at the airport 3 to 4 hours early because she knows her bags will be searched. This is supposedly a random occurance, but in dozens of flights, not once have they failed to ask her to step out of the line and open her bags. I have witnessed this myself on six separate occasions.

I ask why they are searching her bags, and am told it is random, but one time, the searcher told me that the "elderly" are more susceptible to having something placed in their luggage unawares.

Now my grandma may be 85, but she is sharp as a tack and smarter than most people I know. So, is this a reasonable precaution? And if not, why aren't more people upset that the very old and the very young are singled out more than the average traveler.

The author is being ignorant and racist, which I happen to have a problem with. Hence me calling him nasty things.

Don't make me out to be the bad guy because I have a problem with the people that send out trash like that.

I never said that I wanted your 85 year old granmother searched, now did I? Where did I say that? I believe searches should be random, and that NOBODY should be singled out. But you didn't bother asking me about that, did you?

Panda "please don't make an ASS out of U and ME" Marie

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MacLloyd
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Panda, I gotta admit, I put that in just to see what your reaction would be. [Wink]

Of course, I could say that I have a problem with people who spew vitriol about folks just because they disagree with what they say, and that by your logic I would be justified, but truth be told, I just felt like it.

If I offended you, I apologize.

Mac "head bent low" Lloyd

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MacLloyd
God Rest Ye Merry Merchants


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quote:
Originally posted by pinqy:
But that's the tricky part...who are we talking about? Muslims? 30% of Muslims in the US are African-American. But I've never heard of Nation of Islam involved in terrorist acts. Arabs? The majority of Arabs in the US are Lebanese Christians. Middle aged White guys? There just aren't any clearly defined "groups" to be targetted.

I agree with you, pinqy. I was making a point about my grandmother. My father has had his bags searched, my uncle and aunt, ditto, all over sixty. I myself have never had my bags searched, nor my wife, my sister, my son, my... well the list goes on.

In my experience, older people are subjected to search with much greater frequency than younger people. It bothers me.

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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
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Say it with me, folks: "The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'." [Wink]

--------------------
"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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Panda_Marie
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quote:
Originally posted by MacLloyd:
Panda, I gotta admit, I put that in just to see what your reaction would be. [Wink]

Of course, I could say that I have a problem with people who spew vitriol about folks just because they disagree with what they say, and that by your logic I would be justified, but truth be told, I just felt like it.

If I offended you, I apologize.

Mac "head bent low" Lloyd

[lol]

Why you panda abusing son of a so and so!

I'm going to report you to the World Wildlife Fund.

Panda "they're on my side, dontcha know?" Marie

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Funkmistress
Deck the Malls


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The main problem I have with racial profiling, in this instance, is that radical Islamists don't have a consistent race to profile. I realize that most people, upon hearing the word "Muslim", probably think of swarthy men wearing turbans, but the fact is that Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the world. Muslims come from every corner of the world, from Southeast Asia to sub-saharan Africa to good ol' honky America. There's a difference between a religion and an ethnic group, and people would be wise to remember that.

Back to the quizlet in the OP. To be honest, I'm interested in what peoples' objections are to it. It's not particularly well-written, but that's to be expected. But is the information presented false? Is it biased? Is there something I'm not seeing? The writer, whoever he is, doesn't seem particularly ignorant; his spelling and syntax are quite up to par and he seems to have a pretty decent grasp of historical events (I, for one, had completely forgotten about the Achille Lauro incident).

If you respond, please be specific as to what is so heinous about this list; don't respond with substance-free rants in the vein of (with all due respect) Panda_Marie. I'm truly interesting in understanding what people find objectionable here, and I write this completely without irony or sarcasm.

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pinqy
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quote:
Back to the quizlet in the OP. To be honest, I'm interested in what peoples' objections are to it. It's not particularly well-written, but that's to be expected. But is the information presented false? Is it biased?
Well, the info on Sirhan Sirhan is false. And it's biased as it presents terrorist acts by radical Muslims as if those are the only ones that occurred or were the most serious. The Oklahoma City bombing was more devastating than most of the acts listed. The Red Army Faction and Action Directe attacked US targets as well.

pinqy

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Mistletoey Chloe
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Yes. It cherry-picks among terrorist incidents, choosing only those committed by a certain segment of the population in order to make the argument that only that segment of the population commits terrorist crimes.

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Panda_Marie
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quote:
Originally posted by pinqy:
quote:
Back to the quizlet in the OP. To be honest, I'm interested in what peoples' objections are to it. It's not particularly well-written, but that's to be expected. But is the information presented false? Is it biased?
Well, the info on Sirhan Sirhan is false. And it's biased as it presents terrorist acts by radical Muslims as if those are the only ones that occurred or were the most serious. The Oklahoma City bombing was more devastating than most of the acts listed. The Red Army Faction and Action Directe attacked US targets as well.

pinqy

Yup, that just about sums it up.

Thank you, pinqy.

The whole thing just reeks with ignorance, and I have a major problem with ignorance. And if I choose to take a stab at an author of such ignorance, then that is my choosing. If I choose to picture this author as someone that sits in their mother's basement and masterbates to perverse pornography, such as beastialty pornography, then that is also my choosing. This is how I deal with ignorant people. I mock them, so my head does not explode at the idea of having to co-exist with them.

Panda "my head is safe for one more day" Marie

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Jason Threadslayer
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by pinqy:
But I've never heard of Nation of Islam involved in terrorist acts.

Mainstream Muslims do not consider the Nation of Islam to be Muslim.

--------------------
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Dark Rikku
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Oy…

what a selective reading of history this e-mail gives!

The whole point of criticising "profiling" is not that grandmothers and toddlers could also do it, but that it is a serious mistake to target an "ethnic" group because many members of terrorist groups are of that particular group: being of middle-eastern descent does not mean you're an islamist fundamentalist, and being a white Christian does not guarantee you are not a terrorist.

The problem with the "dragnet" profiling used since 9/11 is that many people have been arrested and detained without a warrant (thanks to the USA Patriot act), and without access to a lawyer, simply because their names sounded Arabic or because they were from "unsafe" countries (the ACLU has done a good report on that, it's available on their website). While this is a blatant travesty of justice, there is not a shred of evidence to prove it has made America safer- and, for diplomatic reasons, it is still remarkably easy to get a visa from Saudi Arabia without getting your case fully examined first, event though that country has its fair share of terrorists: interesting to see how "security concerns" apply differently when screening long-time US residents and tourists from a wealthy nation.

Finally, I'd like to point out that Anthrax was not spread by Islamist fundamentalists (if I recall correctly, it was linked to some white supremacists), and the bombing in Oklahoma city wasn't either: why on earth should we be suspicious of people-who-might-be-muslim-and-perhaps-even-extremists and not of demented white guys who think they're defending the US by killing everyone who doesn't agree with them? Was the Unabomber an islamist? The guys who killed Martin Luther King, or John F. kennedy were not, as far as I know, muslims.

SO, in all fairness, even though your grandma is probably safe (but you know, grannies can be tough…), there is no reason to screen "muslim"-looking people or people who might be muslim fundamentalists (i.e.- in practical terms, for law enforcement officers in the streets or in airports- anyone who's not exactly white, 'cause how the heck are you supposed to know just on sight that someone's a "muslim extremist"? Terrorists usually aren't very observant in terms of clothing and shaving) is pointless if you're not gonna check ANYONE who's between 17 and 40-ish.

It's not just a matter of not being a racist, it's also a question of correctly grasping the reality of terrorist threat which is not, sorry folks, only linked to "muslim extremists".

--------------------
Dark Rikku
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Jason Threadslayer
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Funkmistress:
The writer, whoever he is, doesn't seem particularly ignorant; his spelling and syntax are quite up to par and he seems to have a pretty decent grasp of historical events (I, for one, had completely forgotten about the Achille Lauro incident).

It's part of a Walter Williams column, filtered through many, many e-mailers.

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pinqy
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quote:
Originally posted by Jason Threadslayer:
quote:
Originally posted by pinqy:
But I've never heard of Nation of Islam involved in terrorist acts.

Mainstream Muslims do not consider the Nation of Islam to be Muslim.
True, but entirely irrelevant.

pinqy

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Funkmistress
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I'm going to be quoting a lot here...

quote:
Well, the info on Sirhan Sirhan is false. And it's biased as it presents terrorist acts by radical Muslims as if those are the only ones that occurred or were the most serious. The Oklahoma City bombing was more devastating than most of the acts listed. The Red Army Faction and Action Directe attacked US targets as well.
I hear that. Terror is by no means limited to Islamists. However, I present a challenge to proponents of this argument: Quickly, off the top of your head, name five terror attacks in the past five years committed by radical Muslims. Now name five committed by rednecks, political fringe groups, or other non-Muslim crazies.

The point is, the major proponents of terror attacks at this point in history are crazy Islamists. Action Directe and the RAF have been out of the picture for twenty years. While Tim McVeigh and the Unabomber were certainly terrorists, allow me to point out that we were weren't at war with them. They acted alone. The attacks carried out these days tend to be the work of definite groups, groups who usually work under the banner of Islam.

quote:
Finally, I'd like to point out that Anthrax was not spread by Islamist fundamentalists
We don't know squat about the anthrax thing. (Thanks, Mr. Bush.) The letters included with the anthrax said DEATH TO AMERICA, DEATH TO ISRAEL, ALLAH IS GREAT, so naturally the assumption was that radical Islamists had something to do with it, though I suppose it could have been an intentional red herring. Either way, I certainly don't recall any mention of white supremacists.

And Panda_Marie, since you have such a major problem with ignorance, then surely you won't mind if I point out that the words are "masturbates" and "bestiality".

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Dark Rikku
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quote:
Finally, I'd like to point out that Anthrax was not spread by Islamist fundamentalists
We don't know squat about the anthrax thing. (Thanks, Mr. Bush.) The letters included with the anthrax said DEATH TO AMERICA, DEATH TO ISRAEL, ALLAH IS GREAT, so naturally the assumption was that radical Islamists had something to do with it, though I suppose it could have been an intentional red herring. Either way, I certainly don't recall any mention of white supremacists. [/QB][/QUOTE]

Weeelll, it appeared to be the most serious lead before the whole affair was forgotten:

a report from the BBC

here is an article by a bunch of fairly reliable political scientists:

public eye forum


aaaand another thingy

article

those are the english-speaking sources i have found right now (first page of google results), but the notion that the Army of God was responsible for the anhrax threats both real and fake was at the time mentioned as a probable explanation by very serious French national media (and before anyone says it, no, Meyssan's idiotic theories were not accepted as remotely valid by the French press, which is at least as reliable as the American media, for crying out loud)

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Dark Rikku
Santorum happens
Hail bloody marys

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KennRice
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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quote:
Originally posted by Funkmistress:
Terror is by no means limited to Islamists. However, I present a challenge to proponents of this argument: Quickly, off the top of your head, name five terror attacks in the past five years committed by radical Muslims. Now name five committed by rednecks, political fringe groups, or other non-Muslim crazies.

I'll forgo the five terrorist attacks by radical Muslims since there is a list at the begining of this topic.

For the five terrorist attacks by rednecks, political fringe groups, or other non-Muslim crazies I came up with:

1. Oklahoma City bombing.
2. Columbine School killings.
3. Washington DC sniper attacks.
4. Sarin poison gas attack in the Tokyo subways.
5. Russian massacres in Chechenya (Muslims were victims).
6. Numerous IRA attacks.

I'm sure there are others.

Ken

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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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Atlanta Olympic bombing

Several abortion clinic bombings...

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"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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Panda_Marie
The Red and the Green Stamps


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Ku Klux Klan...

neo-Nazis...

HEY! Hitler was white!

Christian Fundamentalist groups...which I'm sure McVey of The OKC bombing was at least interested in, if not a part of it, if I remember correctly. I may be getting things mixed up, it's been awhile since I watched the documentary on it.

The Unibomber (sp?) was white, was he not?

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abbubmah
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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While it is true that you can't identify a Muslim by skin tone, you can't ignore that a large amount of extremism is seen from the Arabic and "Arabic looking" groups from the Middle East. Of course we should not profile based on percieved race, and "Muslim male extremist between the ages of 17 and 40" have not been responsible for ALL terrorist acts, true.

However, they seem to be durn plentiful in terror attacks these days. While I wouldn't go so far as to call it racial profiling, if someone possibly fits the general profile of "Muslim male extremist between the ages of 17 and 40" then why not subject them to a search?

Of course, you can't do away with random searches, heck, you might have people who want to go out in a blaze of glory, such as the recently unemployed, clinically depressed, or the just plain crazies, of which every race and nationality has an abundance.

But not to check an obviously middle-eastern man carrying a backpack, and pat down a 5 year old? That's being TOO politically correct. So people are offended, big deal. The world is not the same place it was a few years ago.

Like I said in another thread, act suspiciously, like a terrorist, expect to be treated like a terrorist. And don't be offended for being checked on it.

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Fundamentally Unfundie since 1975

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Oualawouzou
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by Ole Pappy:
But not to check an obviously middle-eastern man carrying a backpack, and pat down a 5 year old? That's being TOO politically correct. So people are offended, big deal. The world is not the same place it was a few years ago.

Like I said in another thread, act suspiciously, like a terrorist, expect to be treated like a terrorist. And don't be offended for being checked on it.

Carrying a backpack is acting suspiciously? [Confused]

By all means, if someone is acting suspiciously, yes, he should be checked, regardless of age, sex, skin color, etc.

I'm walking on the street at night, I shouldn't have to interrupt my walk just because I'm male, 18-25, with long hair and a backpack. If I jump in the bushes when I see the police? Sure. If they're looking for someone matching my description? Sure. If I keep glancing nervously in the police's direction? Sure. But "just because"? No.

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Le champignon arrive.

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Panda_Marie
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by Ole Pappy:
While it is true that you can't identify a Muslim by skin tone, you can't ignore that a large amount of extremism is seen from the Arabic and "Arabic looking" groups from the Middle East. Of course we should not profile based on percieved race, and "Muslim male extremist between the ages of 17 and 40" have not been responsible for ALL terrorist acts, true.

Oddly enough, my dad looked rather Middle Eastern, especially after a few hours baking in the hot sun. So, no, skin tone really isn't a good measure of whether or not a person is Muslim, let alone an extremist.
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abbubmah
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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No, just carrying a backpack is not necessarily suspicious; I think what people are either forgetting or ignoring for personal agendas is that there is a pretty specific pattern of behavior that has been identified with most terrorist activity. If someone is acting in a manner that has been associated with known terrorist actions in the past, perhaps a closer look is warranted. It's a combination of who, what, and when, that should bring examination, and it has the unfortunate quality of being very subjective. You just can't tell, every time. That's obvious.

You can't take the stupid out of people... some are going to act as if they have lived in a cave for the last 10 years, and do stupid stuff anyway. They shouldn't blame the rest of us for being cautious.

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Fundamentally Unfundie since 1975

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