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Author Topic: Anti-Muslim "History Quiz"
MacLloyd
God Rest Ye Merry Merchants


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At the risk of getting called an -
quote:
Ignorant, racist with nothing better to do with their time then perpetuate ignorance and racism in society via their computer in their mommies basement while taking a break from masterbating to beastialty porn
by PandaMarie, I would like to say that it makes more sense to look for individuals who may belong to a group that has openly declared war on, well everyone who does not agree with them, than say my 85 year old grandmother.

Since 9/11, my grandmother, who flies regularly, has not been able to board a plane without geting her bags searched. She has taken to arriving at the airport 3 to 4 hours early because she knows her bags will be searched. This is supposedly a random occurance, but in dozens of flights, not once have they failed to ask her to step out of the line and open her bags. I have witnessed this myself on six separate occasions.

I ask why they are searching her bags, and am told it is random, but one time, the searcher told me that the "elderly" are more susceptible to having something placed in their luggage unawares.

Now my grandma may be 85, but she is sharp as a tack and smarter than most people I know. So, is this a reasonable precaution? And if not, why aren't more people upset that the very old and the very young are singled out more than the average traveler.

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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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Perhaps because the very old and the very young aren't actually singled out more than the average traveller?

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"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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Hero_Mike
Happy Holly Days


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This list just starts out on the wrong foot. Bobby Kennedy may have been killed by Sirhan Bishara Sirhan, which does sound like a muslim name. However, he is a Christian born in Jerusalem.

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MacLloyd
God Rest Ye Merry Merchants


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And perhaps the greatest perpetrators of international terrorism are indeed Muslim extremists.

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"May you make the Yuletide pay!"

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pinqy
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by MacLloyd:
I would like to say that it makes more sense to look for individuals who may belong to a group that has openly declared war on, well everyone who does not agree with them, than say my 85 year old grandmother.


But that's the tricky part...who are we talking about? Muslims? 30% of Muslims in the US are African-American. But I've never heard of Nation of Islam involved in terrorist acts. Arabs? The majority of Arabs in the US are Lebanese Christians. Middle aged White guys? There just aren't any clearly defined "groups" to be targetted.

pinqy

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Panda_Marie
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quote:
Originally posted by MacLloyd:
At the risk of getting called an -
quote:
Ignorant, racist with nothing better to do with their time then perpetuate ignorance and racism in society via their computer in their mommies basement while taking a break from masterbating to beastialty porn
by PandaMarie, I would like to say that it makes more sense to look for individuals who may belong to a group that has openly declared war on, well everyone who does not agree with them, than say my 85 year old grandmother.

Since 9/11, my grandmother, who flies regularly, has not been able to board a plane without geting her bags searched. She has taken to arriving at the airport 3 to 4 hours early because she knows her bags will be searched. This is supposedly a random occurance, but in dozens of flights, not once have they failed to ask her to step out of the line and open her bags. I have witnessed this myself on six separate occasions.

I ask why they are searching her bags, and am told it is random, but one time, the searcher told me that the "elderly" are more susceptible to having something placed in their luggage unawares.

Now my grandma may be 85, but she is sharp as a tack and smarter than most people I know. So, is this a reasonable precaution? And if not, why aren't more people upset that the very old and the very young are singled out more than the average traveler.

The author is being ignorant and racist, which I happen to have a problem with. Hence me calling him nasty things.

Don't make me out to be the bad guy because I have a problem with the people that send out trash like that.

I never said that I wanted your 85 year old granmother searched, now did I? Where did I say that? I believe searches should be random, and that NOBODY should be singled out. But you didn't bother asking me about that, did you?

Panda "please don't make an ASS out of U and ME" Marie

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MacLloyd
God Rest Ye Merry Merchants


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Panda, I gotta admit, I put that in just to see what your reaction would be. [Wink]

Of course, I could say that I have a problem with people who spew vitriol about folks just because they disagree with what they say, and that by your logic I would be justified, but truth be told, I just felt like it.

If I offended you, I apologize.

Mac "head bent low" Lloyd

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"May you make the Yuletide pay!"

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MacLloyd
God Rest Ye Merry Merchants


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quote:
Originally posted by pinqy:
But that's the tricky part...who are we talking about? Muslims? 30% of Muslims in the US are African-American. But I've never heard of Nation of Islam involved in terrorist acts. Arabs? The majority of Arabs in the US are Lebanese Christians. Middle aged White guys? There just aren't any clearly defined "groups" to be targetted.

I agree with you, pinqy. I was making a point about my grandmother. My father has had his bags searched, my uncle and aunt, ditto, all over sixty. I myself have never had my bags searched, nor my wife, my sister, my son, my... well the list goes on.

In my experience, older people are subjected to search with much greater frequency than younger people. It bothers me.

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"May you make the Yuletide pay!"

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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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Say it with me, folks: "The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'." [Wink]

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"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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Panda_Marie
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by MacLloyd:
Panda, I gotta admit, I put that in just to see what your reaction would be. [Wink]

Of course, I could say that I have a problem with people who spew vitriol about folks just because they disagree with what they say, and that by your logic I would be justified, but truth be told, I just felt like it.

If I offended you, I apologize.

Mac "head bent low" Lloyd

[lol]

Why you panda abusing son of a so and so!

I'm going to report you to the World Wildlife Fund.

Panda "they're on my side, dontcha know?" Marie

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Funkmistress
Deck the Malls


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The main problem I have with racial profiling, in this instance, is that radical Islamists don't have a consistent race to profile. I realize that most people, upon hearing the word "Muslim", probably think of swarthy men wearing turbans, but the fact is that Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the world. Muslims come from every corner of the world, from Southeast Asia to sub-saharan Africa to good ol' honky America. There's a difference between a religion and an ethnic group, and people would be wise to remember that.

Back to the quizlet in the OP. To be honest, I'm interested in what peoples' objections are to it. It's not particularly well-written, but that's to be expected. But is the information presented false? Is it biased? Is there something I'm not seeing? The writer, whoever he is, doesn't seem particularly ignorant; his spelling and syntax are quite up to par and he seems to have a pretty decent grasp of historical events (I, for one, had completely forgotten about the Achille Lauro incident).

If you respond, please be specific as to what is so heinous about this list; don't respond with substance-free rants in the vein of (with all due respect) Panda_Marie. I'm truly interesting in understanding what people find objectionable here, and I write this completely without irony or sarcasm.

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pinqy
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Back to the quizlet in the OP. To be honest, I'm interested in what peoples' objections are to it. It's not particularly well-written, but that's to be expected. But is the information presented false? Is it biased?
Well, the info on Sirhan Sirhan is false. And it's biased as it presents terrorist acts by radical Muslims as if those are the only ones that occurred or were the most serious. The Oklahoma City bombing was more devastating than most of the acts listed. The Red Army Faction and Action Directe attacked US targets as well.

pinqy

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Don't Forget!
Winter Solstice Hanukkah Christmas Kwanzaa & Gurnenthar's Ascendance Are Coming!

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Mistletoey Chloe
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Yes. It cherry-picks among terrorist incidents, choosing only those committed by a certain segment of the population in order to make the argument that only that segment of the population commits terrorist crimes.

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~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~

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Panda_Marie
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by pinqy:
quote:
Back to the quizlet in the OP. To be honest, I'm interested in what peoples' objections are to it. It's not particularly well-written, but that's to be expected. But is the information presented false? Is it biased?
Well, the info on Sirhan Sirhan is false. And it's biased as it presents terrorist acts by radical Muslims as if those are the only ones that occurred or were the most serious. The Oklahoma City bombing was more devastating than most of the acts listed. The Red Army Faction and Action Directe attacked US targets as well.

pinqy

Yup, that just about sums it up.

Thank you, pinqy.

The whole thing just reeks with ignorance, and I have a major problem with ignorance. And if I choose to take a stab at an author of such ignorance, then that is my choosing. If I choose to picture this author as someone that sits in their mother's basement and masterbates to perverse pornography, such as beastialty pornography, then that is also my choosing. This is how I deal with ignorant people. I mock them, so my head does not explode at the idea of having to co-exist with them.

Panda "my head is safe for one more day" Marie

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Jason Threadslayer
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by pinqy:
But I've never heard of Nation of Islam involved in terrorist acts.

Mainstream Muslims do not consider the Nation of Islam to be Muslim.

--------------------
All posts foretold by Nostradamus.

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Dark Rikku
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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Oy…

what a selective reading of history this e-mail gives!

The whole point of criticising "profiling" is not that grandmothers and toddlers could also do it, but that it is a serious mistake to target an "ethnic" group because many members of terrorist groups are of that particular group: being of middle-eastern descent does not mean you're an islamist fundamentalist, and being a white Christian does not guarantee you are not a terrorist.

The problem with the "dragnet" profiling used since 9/11 is that many people have been arrested and detained without a warrant (thanks to the USA Patriot act), and without access to a lawyer, simply because their names sounded Arabic or because they were from "unsafe" countries (the ACLU has done a good report on that, it's available on their website). While this is a blatant travesty of justice, there is not a shred of evidence to prove it has made America safer- and, for diplomatic reasons, it is still remarkably easy to get a visa from Saudi Arabia without getting your case fully examined first, event though that country has its fair share of terrorists: interesting to see how "security concerns" apply differently when screening long-time US residents and tourists from a wealthy nation.

Finally, I'd like to point out that Anthrax was not spread by Islamist fundamentalists (if I recall correctly, it was linked to some white supremacists), and the bombing in Oklahoma city wasn't either: why on earth should we be suspicious of people-who-might-be-muslim-and-perhaps-even-extremists and not of demented white guys who think they're defending the US by killing everyone who doesn't agree with them? Was the Unabomber an islamist? The guys who killed Martin Luther King, or John F. kennedy were not, as far as I know, muslims.

SO, in all fairness, even though your grandma is probably safe (but you know, grannies can be tough…), there is no reason to screen "muslim"-looking people or people who might be muslim fundamentalists (i.e.- in practical terms, for law enforcement officers in the streets or in airports- anyone who's not exactly white, 'cause how the heck are you supposed to know just on sight that someone's a "muslim extremist"? Terrorists usually aren't very observant in terms of clothing and shaving) is pointless if you're not gonna check ANYONE who's between 17 and 40-ish.

It's not just a matter of not being a racist, it's also a question of correctly grasping the reality of terrorist threat which is not, sorry folks, only linked to "muslim extremists".

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Dark Rikku
Santorum happens
Hail bloody marys

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Jason Threadslayer
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Funkmistress:
The writer, whoever he is, doesn't seem particularly ignorant; his spelling and syntax are quite up to par and he seems to have a pretty decent grasp of historical events (I, for one, had completely forgotten about the Achille Lauro incident).

It's part of a Walter Williams column, filtered through many, many e-mailers.

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All posts foretold by Nostradamus.

Turing test failures: 6

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pinqy
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Jason Threadslayer:
quote:
Originally posted by pinqy:
But I've never heard of Nation of Islam involved in terrorist acts.

Mainstream Muslims do not consider the Nation of Islam to be Muslim.
True, but entirely irrelevant.

pinqy

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Don't Forget!
Winter Solstice Hanukkah Christmas Kwanzaa & Gurnenthar's Ascendance Are Coming!

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Funkmistress
Deck the Malls


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I'm going to be quoting a lot here...

quote:
Well, the info on Sirhan Sirhan is false. And it's biased as it presents terrorist acts by radical Muslims as if those are the only ones that occurred or were the most serious. The Oklahoma City bombing was more devastating than most of the acts listed. The Red Army Faction and Action Directe attacked US targets as well.
I hear that. Terror is by no means limited to Islamists. However, I present a challenge to proponents of this argument: Quickly, off the top of your head, name five terror attacks in the past five years committed by radical Muslims. Now name five committed by rednecks, political fringe groups, or other non-Muslim crazies.

The point is, the major proponents of terror attacks at this point in history are crazy Islamists. Action Directe and the RAF have been out of the picture for twenty years. While Tim McVeigh and the Unabomber were certainly terrorists, allow me to point out that we were weren't at war with them. They acted alone. The attacks carried out these days tend to be the work of definite groups, groups who usually work under the banner of Islam.

quote:
Finally, I'd like to point out that Anthrax was not spread by Islamist fundamentalists
We don't know squat about the anthrax thing. (Thanks, Mr. Bush.) The letters included with the anthrax said DEATH TO AMERICA, DEATH TO ISRAEL, ALLAH IS GREAT, so naturally the assumption was that radical Islamists had something to do with it, though I suppose it could have been an intentional red herring. Either way, I certainly don't recall any mention of white supremacists.

And Panda_Marie, since you have such a major problem with ignorance, then surely you won't mind if I point out that the words are "masturbates" and "bestiality".

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Dark Rikku
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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quote:
Finally, I'd like to point out that Anthrax was not spread by Islamist fundamentalists
We don't know squat about the anthrax thing. (Thanks, Mr. Bush.) The letters included with the anthrax said DEATH TO AMERICA, DEATH TO ISRAEL, ALLAH IS GREAT, so naturally the assumption was that radical Islamists had something to do with it, though I suppose it could have been an intentional red herring. Either way, I certainly don't recall any mention of white supremacists. [/QB][/QUOTE]

Weeelll, it appeared to be the most serious lead before the whole affair was forgotten:

a report from the BBC

here is an article by a bunch of fairly reliable political scientists:

public eye forum


aaaand another thingy

article

those are the english-speaking sources i have found right now (first page of google results), but the notion that the Army of God was responsible for the anhrax threats both real and fake was at the time mentioned as a probable explanation by very serious French national media (and before anyone says it, no, Meyssan's idiotic theories were not accepted as remotely valid by the French press, which is at least as reliable as the American media, for crying out loud)

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Dark Rikku
Santorum happens
Hail bloody marys

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KennRice
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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quote:
Originally posted by Funkmistress:
Terror is by no means limited to Islamists. However, I present a challenge to proponents of this argument: Quickly, off the top of your head, name five terror attacks in the past five years committed by radical Muslims. Now name five committed by rednecks, political fringe groups, or other non-Muslim crazies.

I'll forgo the five terrorist attacks by radical Muslims since there is a list at the begining of this topic.

For the five terrorist attacks by rednecks, political fringe groups, or other non-Muslim crazies I came up with:

1. Oklahoma City bombing.
2. Columbine School killings.
3. Washington DC sniper attacks.
4. Sarin poison gas attack in the Tokyo subways.
5. Russian massacres in Chechenya (Muslims were victims).
6. Numerous IRA attacks.

I'm sure there are others.

Ken

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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
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Atlanta Olympic bombing

Several abortion clinic bombings...

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"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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Panda_Marie
The Red and the Green Stamps


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Ku Klux Klan...

neo-Nazis...

HEY! Hitler was white!

Christian Fundamentalist groups...which I'm sure McVey of The OKC bombing was at least interested in, if not a part of it, if I remember correctly. I may be getting things mixed up, it's been awhile since I watched the documentary on it.

The Unibomber (sp?) was white, was he not?

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abbubmah
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While it is true that you can't identify a Muslim by skin tone, you can't ignore that a large amount of extremism is seen from the Arabic and "Arabic looking" groups from the Middle East. Of course we should not profile based on percieved race, and "Muslim male extremist between the ages of 17 and 40" have not been responsible for ALL terrorist acts, true.

However, they seem to be durn plentiful in terror attacks these days. While I wouldn't go so far as to call it racial profiling, if someone possibly fits the general profile of "Muslim male extremist between the ages of 17 and 40" then why not subject them to a search?

Of course, you can't do away with random searches, heck, you might have people who want to go out in a blaze of glory, such as the recently unemployed, clinically depressed, or the just plain crazies, of which every race and nationality has an abundance.

But not to check an obviously middle-eastern man carrying a backpack, and pat down a 5 year old? That's being TOO politically correct. So people are offended, big deal. The world is not the same place it was a few years ago.

Like I said in another thread, act suspiciously, like a terrorist, expect to be treated like a terrorist. And don't be offended for being checked on it.

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Fundamentally Unfundie since 1975

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Oualawouzou
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by Ole Pappy:
But not to check an obviously middle-eastern man carrying a backpack, and pat down a 5 year old? That's being TOO politically correct. So people are offended, big deal. The world is not the same place it was a few years ago.

Like I said in another thread, act suspiciously, like a terrorist, expect to be treated like a terrorist. And don't be offended for being checked on it.

Carrying a backpack is acting suspiciously? [Confused]

By all means, if someone is acting suspiciously, yes, he should be checked, regardless of age, sex, skin color, etc.

I'm walking on the street at night, I shouldn't have to interrupt my walk just because I'm male, 18-25, with long hair and a backpack. If I jump in the bushes when I see the police? Sure. If they're looking for someone matching my description? Sure. If I keep glancing nervously in the police's direction? Sure. But "just because"? No.

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Le champignon arrive.

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Panda_Marie
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by Ole Pappy:
While it is true that you can't identify a Muslim by skin tone, you can't ignore that a large amount of extremism is seen from the Arabic and "Arabic looking" groups from the Middle East. Of course we should not profile based on percieved race, and "Muslim male extremist between the ages of 17 and 40" have not been responsible for ALL terrorist acts, true.

Oddly enough, my dad looked rather Middle Eastern, especially after a few hours baking in the hot sun. So, no, skin tone really isn't a good measure of whether or not a person is Muslim, let alone an extremist.
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abbubmah
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No, just carrying a backpack is not necessarily suspicious; I think what people are either forgetting or ignoring for personal agendas is that there is a pretty specific pattern of behavior that has been identified with most terrorist activity. If someone is acting in a manner that has been associated with known terrorist actions in the past, perhaps a closer look is warranted. It's a combination of who, what, and when, that should bring examination, and it has the unfortunate quality of being very subjective. You just can't tell, every time. That's obvious.

You can't take the stupid out of people... some are going to act as if they have lived in a cave for the last 10 years, and do stupid stuff anyway. They shouldn't blame the rest of us for being cautious.

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Fundamentally Unfundie since 1975

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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
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And what is that pattern of behavior? I remember seeing the video of Mohammed Atta and his companion going through the Portland, ME jetport, and they were hardly acting in any sort of manner that is inconsistent with folks getting on an airplane.

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"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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Pogue Ma-humbug
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quote:
Originally posted by Ole Pappy:
But not to check an obviously middle-eastern man carrying a backpack, and pat down a 5 year old? That's being TOO politically correct.

Unless, of course, that slippery, swarthy terrorist slipped his bomb into the 5-year-old's backpack when no one was looking.

Pogue

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Let's drink to the causes in your life:
Your family, your friends, the union, your wife.

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abbubmah
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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Pogue, you're right - let's just SHOOT anybody who looks the part, especially if they are running into a public transportation area.

There really isn't an easy way to resolve the problem. No one will ever be happy with any solution or method proposed.

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Fundamentally Unfundie since 1975

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MacLloyd
God Rest Ye Merry Merchants


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quote:
Originally posted by KennRice:
quote:
Originally posted by Funkmistress:
Terror is by no means limited to Islamists. However, I present a challenge to proponents of this argument: Quickly, off the top of your head, name five terror attacks in the past five years committed by radical Muslims. Now name five committed by rednecks, political fringe groups, or other non-Muslim crazies.

I'll forgo the five terrorist attacks by radical Muslims since there is a list at the begining of this topic.

For the five terrorist attacks by rednecks, political fringe groups, or other non-Muslim crazies I came up with:

1. Oklahoma City bombing.
2. Columbine School killings.
3. Washington DC sniper attacks.
4. Sarin poison gas attack in the Tokyo subways.
5. Russian massacres in Chechenya (Muslims were victims).
6. Numerous IRA attacks.

I'm sure there are others.

Ken

Not to be pedantic, but Oklahoma City and Tokyo were 10 years ago, and Columbine was over 6 years ago.

More to the point, no one is claiming that all terrorist acts are committed Islamic extremists (who pervert the teaching of Islam to there own ends), but it cannot be denied that there is, in fact, an organized group of Muslim extremists who support and perform acts of international terrorism on a large scale.

And publicly admit that they are responsible.

ETA: I just noticed that the 5 years specifically referred to "radical Muslims", not everyone else. I may have inferred incorrectly.

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"May you make the Yuletide pay!"

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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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But the author of the screed in the OP was using events from 40 years ago.

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"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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Senior
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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A friend of mine is Puerto Rican. He's fairly dark skinned and speaks English with a strong accent. He's been accused several times of being, or at least looking like, "an Islamic terrorist." Forget the facts that he's a devout Roman Catholic, a U.S. citizen since birth, and an honorably discharged U.S. Navy veteran, he fits the profile.

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Ad astra per asparagus.

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Easter Lemming
The Red and the Green Stamps


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That is very close to this which I received and disagree with many of the premisses.
______

Please read it. You may not agree with the conclusions drawn, but the premise is too real.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

To get out of a difficulty, one usually must go through it.
Our country is now facing the most serious threat to its existence, as we know it, that we have faced in your lifetime and mine (which includes WWII! ).

The deadly seriousness is greatly compounded by the fact that there are very few of us who think we can possibly lose this war and even fewer who realize what losing really means.

First, let's examine a few basics

1. When did the threat to us start?

Many will say September 11th, 2001. The answer as far as the United States is concerned is 1979, 22 years prior to September 2001, with the following attacks on us

Iran Embassy Hostages, 1979; Beirut, Lebanon Embassy 1983; Beirut, Lebanon Marine Barracks 1983; Lockerbie, Scotland Pan-Am flight to New York 1988; Dhahran, Saudi Arabia Kh!obar Towers Military complex 1996; Nairobi, Kenya US Embassy 1998; Dares Salaam, Tanzania US Embassy 1998; Pentagon 2001.

(Note that during the period from 1981 to 2001 there were
7,581 terrorist attacks worldwide).

2. Why were we attacked?

Envy of our position, our success, and our freedoms. The attacks happened during the administrations of Presidents Carter, Reagan, Bush 1, Clinton and Bush 2. We cannot fault either the Republicans or Democrats as there were no provocation's by any of the presidents or their immediate predecessors, Presidents Ford or Carter.

3. Who were the attackers?

In each case, the attacks on the US were carried out by Muslims.

4. What is the Muslim population of the World? 25%

5. Isn't the Muslim Religion peaceful?

Hopefully, but that is really not material. There is no doubt that the predominately Christian population of Germany was peaceful, but under the dictatorial leadership of Hitler (who was also Christian), that made no difference. You either went along with the administration or you were eliminated. There were 5 to 6 million Christians killed by the Nazis for political reasons (including 7,000 Polish priests). (see http://www.nazis.testimony.co.uk/7-a.htm).

Thus, almost the same number of Christians were killed by the Nazis, as the 6 million holocaust Jews who were killed by them, and we seldom heard of anything other than the Jewish atrocities. Although Hitler kept the world focused on the Jews, he had no hesitancy about killing anyone who got in his way of exterminating the Jews or of taking over the world - German, Christian or any others.

Same with the Muslim terrorists. They focus the world on the US, but kill all in the way -- their own people or the Spanish, French or anyone else. The point here ! is that just like the peaceful Germans were of no protection to anyone from the Nazis, no matter how many peaceful Muslims there may be, they are no protection for us from the terrorist Muslim leaders and what they are fanatically bent on doing
-- by their own pronouncements -- killing all of us "infidels." I don't blame the peaceful Muslims. What would you do if the choice was shut up or die?

6. So who are we at war with?

There is no way we can honestly respond that it is anyone other than the Muslim terrorists. Trying to be politically correct and avoid verbalizing this conclusion can well be fatal. There is no way to win if you don't clearly recognize and articulate who you are fighting.

So with that background, now to the two major questions

1. Can we lose this war?

2. What does losing really mean?

If we are to win, we must clearly answer these two pivotal questions.

We can definitely lose this war, and as anomalous as it may sound, the major reason we can lose is that so many of us simply do not fathom the answer to the second question - What does losing mean?

It would appear that a great many of us think that losing the war means hanging our heads, bringing the troops home and going on about our business, like post Vietnam. This is as far from the truth as one can get. What losing really means is

We would no longer be the premier country in the world. The attacks will not subside, but rather will steadily increase. Remember, they want us dead, not just quiet. If they had just wanted us quiet, they would not have produced an increasing series of attacks against us, over the past 18 years. The plan was clearly, for terrorist to attack us, until we were neutered and submissive to them.

We would of course have no future support from other nations, for fear of reprisals and for the reason that they would see, we are impotent and cannot help them.

They will pick off the other non-Muslim nations, one at a time. It will be increasingly easier for them. They already hold Spain hostage. It doesn't matter whether it was right or wrong for Spain to withdraw its troops from Iraq. Spain did it because the Muslim terrorists bombed their train and told them to withdraw the troops. Anything else they want Spain to do will be done. Spain is finished.

The next will probably be France. Our one hope on France is that they might see the light and realize that if we don't win, they are finished too, in that they can't resist the Muslim terrorists without us.
However, it may already be too late for France. France is already 20% Muslim and fading fast!

If we lose the war, our production, income, exports and way of life will all vanish as we know it. After losing, who would trade or deal with us, if they were threatened by the Muslims.

If we can't stop the Muslims, how could anyone else?

The Muslims fully know what is riding on this war, and therefore are completely committed to winning, at any cost. We better know! it too and be likewise committed to winning at any cost.

Why do I go on at such lengths about the results of losing?
Simple. Until we recognize the costs of losing, we cannot unite and really put 100% of our thoughts and efforts into winning. And it is going to take that 100% effort to win.

So, how can we lose the war?

Again, the answer is simple. We can lose the war by "imploding." That is, defeating ourselves by refusing to recognize the enemy and their purpose, and really digging in and lending full support to the war effort. If we are united, there is no way that we can lose.
If we continue to be divided, there is no way that we can win!

Let me give you a few examples of how we simply don't comprehend the life and death seriousness of this situation.

President Bush selects Norman Mineta as Secretary of Transportation.

Although all of the terrorist attacks were committed by Muslim men between 17 and 40 years of age, Secretary Mineta refuses to allow profiling. Does that sound like we are taking this thing seriously?
This is war! For the duration, we are going to have to give up some of the civil rights we have become accustomed to. We had better be prepared to lose some of our civil rights temporarily or we will most certainly lose all of them permanently.

And don't worry that it is a slippery slope. We gave up plenty of civil rights during WWII, and immediately restored them after the victory and in fact added many more since then.

Do I blame President Bush or President Clinton before him?

No, I blame us for blithely assuming we can maintain all of our Political Correctness, and all of our civil rights during this conflict and have a clean, lawful, honorable war. None of those words apply to war. Get them out of your head.

Some have gone so far in their criticism of the war and/or the Administration that it almost seems they would literally like to see us lose. I hasten to add that this isn't because they are disloyal. It is because they just don't recognize what losing means. Nevertheless, that conduct gives the impression to the enemy that we are divided and weakening. It concerns our friends, and it does great damage to our cause.

Of more recent vintage, the uproar fueled by the politicians and media regarding the treatment of some prisoners of war, perhaps exemplifies best what I am saying.

We have recently had an issue, involving the treatment of a few Muslim prisoners of war, by a small group of our military police.

These are the type prisoners who just a few months ago were throwing their own people off buildings, cutting off their hands, cutting out their tongues and otherwise murdering their own people just for disagreeing with Saddam Hussein.

And just a few years ago these same type prisoners chemically killed 400,000 of their own people for the same reason. They are also the same type enemy fighters, who recently were burning Americans, and dragging their charred corpses through the streets of Iraq.

And still more recently, the same type enemy that was and is providing videos to all news sources internationally, of the beheading of American prisoners they held.

Compare this with some of our press and politicians, who for several days have thought and talked about nothing else but the "humiliating" of some Muslim prisoners -- not burning them, not dragging their charred corpses through the streets, not beheading them, but "humiliating" them.

Can this be for real?

The politicians and pundits have even talked of impeachment of the Secretary of Defense.

If this doesn't show the complete lack of comprehension and understanding of the seriousness of the enemy we are fighting, the life and death struggle we are in and the disastrous results of losing this war, nothing can.

To bring our country to a virtual political standstill over this prisoner issue makes us look like Nero playing his fiddle as Rome burned -- totally oblivious to what is going on in the real world.

Neither we, nor any other country, can survive this internal strife.

Again I say, this does not mean that some of our politicians or media people are disloyal. It simply means that they are absolutely oblivious to the magnitude, of the situation we are in and into which the Muslim terrorists have been pushing us, for many years.

Remember, the Muslim terrorists stated goal is to kill all infidels! That translates into all non-Muslims -- not just in the United States, but throughout the world.

We are the last bastion of defense.

We have been criticized for many years as being 'arrogant.' That charge is valid in at least one respect. We are arrogant in that we believe that we are so good, powerful and smart, that we can win the hearts and minds of all those who attack us, and that with both hands tied behind our back, we can defeat anything bad in the world!

We can't!

If we don't recognize this, our nation as we know it will not survive, and no other free country in the World will survive if we are defeated.

And finally, name any Muslim countries throughout the world that allow freedom of speech, freedom of thought, freedom of religion, freedom of the press, equal rights for anyone -- let alone everyone, equal status or any status for women, or that have been productive in one single way that contributes to the good of the world.

This has been a long way of saying that we must be united on this war or we will be equated in the history books to the self-inflicted fall of the Roman Empire. If, that is, the Muslim leaders will allow history books to be written or read

If we don't win this war right now, keep a close eye on how the Muslims take over France in the next 5 years or less. They will continue to increase the Muslim population of France and continue to encroach little by little, on the established French traditions. The French will be fighting among themselves, over what should or should not be done, which will continue to weaken them and keep them from any united resolve. Doesn't that sound eerily familiar?

Democracies don't have their freedoms taken away from them by some external military force. Instead, they give their freedoms away, politically correct piece by politically correct piece.

And they are giving those freedoms away to those who have shown, worldwide, that they abhor freedom and will not apply it to you or even to themselves, once they are in power.

They have universally shown that when they have taken over, they then start brutally killing each other over who will be the few who control the masses. Will we ever stop hearing from the politically correct, about the "peaceful Muslims"?

I close on a hopeful note, by repeating what I said above.
If we are united, there is no way that we can lose. I hope now after the election, the factions in our country will begin to focus on the critical situation we are in, and will unite to save our country. It is your future we are talking about! Do whatever you can to preserve it.

After reading the above, we all must do this not only for ourselves, but our children, our grandchildren, our country and the world.

Whether Democrat or Republican, conservative or liberal and that includes the Politicians and media of our country and the free world!

Please forward this to any you feel may want, or NEED to read it. Our "leaders" in Congress ought to read it, too.

There are those that find fault with our country, but it is obvious to anyone who truly thinks through this, that we must UNITE!
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Troodon
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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>>HISTORY QUIZ
>> Please pause a moment, reflect back, The events are actual cuts from

>> past history. They actually happened!!!
>> Do you remember?
>> 1. In 1938 Action Comics #1 featured:
>>a. Superman
>>b. Jay Lenno
>>c. Harry Potter
>>d. Muslim male extremist between the ages of 17 and 40
>>
>>2. In 1983 the star of the film "Terminator"
>>was:
>>a. Olga Corbett
>>b. Sitting Bull
>>c. Arnold Schwarzenegger
>>d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
>>
>>3. In 1935, this famous musician was born:
>>a. Lost Norwegians
>>b. Elvis
>>c. A tour bus full of 80-year-old women
>>d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
>>
>>4.During 1908 this organization was founded:
>>a. John Dillinger
>>b. The King of Sweden
>>c. The Boy Scouts
>>d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
>>
>>5. In 2005, the verdict of the Michael Jackson trial was correctly predicted by:
>>a. A pizza delivery boy
>>b. Pee Wee Herman
>>c. Geraldo Rivera
>>d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
>>
>>6. In 1989 the Academy Award for Original Musical Score was won by:
>>a. The Smurfs
>>b. Davy Jones
>>c. The Little Mermaid
>>d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
>>
>>7.In 1701 the man hanged at "Execution Dock" was:
>>a. Captain Kidd
>>b. Charles Lindberg
>>c. Mother Teresa
>>d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
>>
>>8.In 1994, a quarter was left under my pillow by:
>>a. Scooby Doo
>>b. The Tooth Fairy
>>c. Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid
>>d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
>>
>>9. In 1982 the winning shot of the NCAA Championship game was made by:
>>a. Richard Simmons
>>b. Grandma Moses
>>c. Michael Jordan
>>d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
>>
>>10. In 2002, the Presidential Medal of Freedom was won by:
>>a. Mr. Rogers
>>b. Hillary Clinton, to distract attention from Wild Bill' s women
problems
>>c. The World Wrestling Federation
>>d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
>>
>>11. 2000 the vote recount was allowed to proceed by:
>>a. Bugs Bunny, Wiley E. Coyote, Daffy Duck and Elmer Fudd
>>b. The Supreme Court of Florida
>>c. Mr. Bean
>>d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
>>
>>12. In 2002 Congressional hearings began about:
>>a. Enron
>>b. The Lutheran Church
>>c. The NFL
>>d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
>>
>>13. In 2002 an apology for antisemetic statements was made by:
>>a. Bonnie and Clyde
>>b. Captain Kangaroo
>>c. Billy Graham
>>d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
>>
>>14. 2004 Following the tsunami, a cease-fire is agreed to by:
>>a. Disallusioned Nazis
>>b. Chinese merchants.
>>c. Indonesian seperatists
>>d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

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Fools! You've over-estimated me!

Posts: 3745 | From: New York City | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
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