quote:Originally posted by Andrew of Ware, Elfland: I hope, of course, that they have caught the murderer. However, wasn't Peter Sutcliffe - 'The Yorkshire Ripper' - interviewed several times and released before eventually being arrested (in the mean time killing more women)? However, I do not think during these interviews that he was arrested.
No, he wasn't arrested during those interviews. The nature of policing back then (paper files and a woefully understaffed filing team) meant that he was interviewed on a number of occasions - for example, they traced a five pound note found on one victim back to his workplace, and interviewed many of the workers; he was interviewed because he had a similar car to one they were looking for - but because he was interviewed by different officers each time, and they hadn't seen.weren't aware of previous interview notes, he escaped capture each time.
And he was only initially arrested for being in a car with a prostitute, not the attacks themselves.
-------------------- Silence should never under any circumstances be construed as agreement. A lot of the time, it's simply a reflection that someone just said something so stupid that no response could possibly do it justice. - Ramblin' Dave Posts: 8528 | From: Nottingham, England | Registered: Feb 2000
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Do you British snopster think that this cases will bring a change to the policies on prostituion in the UK? I read the Observer's stories on this topic this weekend, and was surprised that there is no legal way for prostitution in the UK and that moves to change that where blocked by Downing Street 10 (or so the Observer claims).
Will the UK get "red light zones" with security measures any time soon or legalise brothels?
Don Enrico
-------------------- My spelling is Wobbly. It's good spelling, but it Wobbles, and the letters get in the wrong places. - Pooh Bear Posts: 2209 | From: Hamburg, Germany | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:Michael Duffy (Mirror Reporter): You seem an intelligent guy, you're a good-looking bloke. Why spend time with drug-addicted prostitutes? Why not find yourself a nice girl?
Tom Stephens: On paper I should be attractive, but there is something about me women do not like
Jeez, really? Whoulda thunk it?
"Is an inflated sense of entitlement getting in the way of you having your way with women? Try our new EntitlementBuster, guarenteed to remove that ugly sense of entitlement in just ten days!"
-------------------- So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus: Posts: 3216 | From: Denver, CO | Registered: Dec 2005
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-------------------- Brosandi. Hendumst í hringi Höldumst í hendur Allur heimurinn óskýr Nema þú stendur Posts: 694 | From: York, UK | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
When I was listening to an article on NPR this morning about these murders, a line caught my attention and I wanted to get some information from British Snopsters. The line was that prostitution was legal in Britain but that solicitation and brothels were not. How does that work? You can accept money for sex, but you can't ask for money for sex and you can't band together with other women? Or am I more than just a bit confused.
-------------------- And now for something completely different... Posts: 4164 | From: Alabama | Registered: Oct 2005
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Richard W
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
quote:Originally posted by Richard W: You'd hope they would be responsible about what they did with the information, though.
You are a funny man, Richard.
quote:If you read some of the things he told the BBC, he does seem to have been enjoying the attention. Not that that means anything one way or the other.
Do you have a link?
quote:Don Erico said: Do you British snopster think that this cases will bring a change to the policies on prostituion in the UK?
I'd hope so. It's certainly been discussed in Parliament. I've seen footage of Blair saying that any changes brought about by the situation highlighted by these murders should be careful and considered, rather than a knee-jerk reaction. This seems like a sensible thing to say but if you bear in mind the fact that this government has instigated any number of knee-jerk legislations and initiatives due to things in the media, then I'm taking that as code for "we're not going to change a damn thing" until shown otherwise.
-------------------- seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears. Posts: 16061 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2000
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Richard W
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
quote:Originally posted by Doug4.7: When I was listening to an article on NPR this morning about these murders, a line caught my attention and I wanted to get some information from British Snopsters. The line was that prostitution was legal in Britain but that solicitation and brothels were not. How does that work? You can accept money for sex, but you can't ask for money for sex and you can't band together with other women? Or am I more than just a bit confused.
I don't think you're confused - the law has never made sense to me, either. It's definitely time for some reforms. I can only assume it was worded loosely enough to give the police discretion, or something.
Small brothels under the guise of "massage parlours" seem to be tolerated these days - although, as I said, presumably some of the respectable-looking massage parlours (like the one I mentioned in an earlier post, which is on a main road into town and has a well-kept and tasteful window display) are just massage parlours. I don't know how you'd tell.
There's also concern over Eastern European women and others being brought to the country under the promise of other jobs and being forced into brothels. It's pretty seedy all round.
Just heard that there's a news report in which Stephens has confessed...
Posts: 8725 | From: Ipswich - the UK's 9th Best Place to Sleep! | Registered: Feb 2000
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Richard W
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
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quote:Originally posted by trollface:
quote:If you read some of the things he told the BBC, he does seem to have been enjoying the attention. Not that that means anything one way or the other.
Do you have a link?
It's the link in my original post (edit -first post today, I meant), which was updated:
"Seems to be enjoying the attention" was my own interpretation of how he's apparently talked for hours to various media operations, told them he was very close to the women and implied that he was close to being a boyfriend to one of them.
People at work have been looking this up, and somebody's found Stephens' MySpace page... For the morbidly curious, here it is. Seems to be where the BBC got that creepy photo. (In my eagerness to post the link, I've not read any of it).
Hope this doesn't seem too obsessive...
Posts: 8725 | From: Ipswich - the UK's 9th Best Place to Sleep! | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Doug4.7: When I was listening to an article on NPR this morning about these murders, a line caught my attention and I wanted to get some information from British Snopsters. The line was that prostitution was legal in Britain but that solicitation and brothels were not. How does that work? You can accept money for sex, but you can't ask for money for sex and you can't band together with other women? Or am I more than just a bit confused.
I don't think you're confused - the law has never made sense to me, either. It's definitely time for some reforms. I can only assume it was worded loosely enough to give the police discretion, or something.
Sounds a bit like the "swedish" model, the point being that women can be protected by the law, even if they are accepting money for sex, but those buying sex aren't exempt from prosecution.
Supposidly, this allows the sex worker to have some sort of security that prostitutes in the U.S. don't have. I.E., if a john abuses/rapes/steals from them, they don't have to fear prosecution in reporting said john.
It's an attempt, albeit a contraversal one, to reduce some of the dangers of sex work (and, really, with the exception of Wurnos, it isn't the buyer who's in danger, but the worker).
There are two strains of thought about the policy. Some say that this still stigmatizes the sex industry, and the best way to correct the problems in the industry is to give sex work an elevated, more respected sense. Others believe that sex work cannot exist in a fair and equitable way in the current culture, due to the damaging divides of race/sex/class, so any action such as this is only a distraction and a weak elixer offered in place of any sort of solution.
-------------------- So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus: Posts: 3216 | From: Denver, CO | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Richard W: Just heard that there's a news report in which Stephens has confessed...
I can't find anything online to confirm that, but I hope you're right.
To be honest, from what I've read it doesn't come as a huge surprise. I formed the same impression that you did from his interview(s), and from the way he was describing his relationship with the girls in a kind of possessive way.
I have to also say that it did sound like he wanted to be caught.
-------------------- seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears. Posts: 16061 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2000
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Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later
posted
quote:Originally posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo.: Sounds a bit like the "swedish" model, the point being that women can be protected by the law, even if they are accepting money for sex, but those buying sex aren't exempt from prosecution.
Well, actually, providing they're not publicly soliciting sex, they aren't committing an offence. Visiting a brothel or massage parlour is not an offence in the UK, although 'kerb crawling' is.
A person commits an offence if he solicits another person or persons for the purpose of prostitution
(a) from a motor vehicle while it is in a street or public place or
(b) in a street or public place while in the immediate vicinity of a motor vehicle he has just got out of,
either persistently or in a manner likely to cause a nuisance to the solicited person or to other persons in the neighbourhood. (2) Persistent soliciting
A person commits an offence if in a street or public place he persistently solicits another person or persons for the purposes of prostitution.
Moreover, 'kerb-crawling' or Soliciting Of Prostitution is not an offence at all in Scotland or Northern Ireland, unless the sex worker is under 18.
quote:Supposidly, this allows the sex worker to have some sort of security that prostitutes in the U.S. don't have. I.E., if a john abuses/rapes/steals from them, they don't have to fear prosecution in reporting said john.
It's an attempt, albeit a contraversal one, to reduce some of the dangers of sex work (and, really, with the exception of Wurnos, it isn't the buyer who's in danger, but the worker).
I think you mean that the Swedish policy of criminalising clients of Prostitutes while decriminalising sex workers themselves, (hereafter referred to as 'The Swedish Model' in the interests of brevity) is an attempt to reduce some of the dangers of and stigma attached to sex work. That, however is emphatically not the case in the UK.
In the UK, prosecutions of sex workers outstrip prosecutions of their clients by something like 30 to 1 (No cite, but a representative of the English Collective of Prostitutes said it on the Today programme on Friday morning.) There's no question that the trickiness of their legal position makes crimes against sex workers much easier to get away with, even when the police are willing to investigate crimes against sex workers, which isn't by any means a given.
The 'Swedish Model' was inter alia in response to the terrible plight of trafficked women from the former Soviet Bloc; the way in which their legal position was originally defined meant that if these women (who were essentially slaves) were able to escape from brothels, they would and did face prosecution if they reported the conditions in which they were kept to the police.
quote: There are two strains of thought about the policy. Some say that this still stigmatizes the sex industry, and the best way to correct the problems in the industry is to give sex work an elevated, more respected sense. Others believe that sex work cannot exist in a fair and equitable way in the current culture, due to the damaging divides of race/sex/class, so any action such as this is only a distraction and a weak elixer offered in place of any sort of solution.
I'm probably in the latter camp, to be honest. I don't think that sex work can exist without exploitation in society as it's currently ordered. It's generally a last-resort for desperate people. Of course there are people involved in sex work who choose to go into it, but I would be stunned if they were anything other than a tiny minority, who are outnumbered by the drug-addicted, or desperately poor, or victims of child sexual abuse, or people smuggled in from horrendously poor or war-torn countries and essentially enslaved by gangsters.
On the other hand, it's somewhat hypocritical in our grotesquely over-sexualised society, where Jenna Jameson is a celebrity and Spearmint Rhino are a perfectly legitimate high-street enterprise to draw the line at this kind of sex work, and say that it's unacceptable.
The best we can hope for is for it to be as made as safe as possible, while recognising that it, along with society's attitudes to issues of sexuality in general, is fundamentally harmful.
-------------------- This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down. Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound Posts: 2794 | From: London, UK | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo.: Sounds a bit like the "swedish" model, the point being that women can be protected by the law, even if they are accepting money for sex, but those buying sex aren't exempt from prosecution.
Well, actually, providing they're not publicly soliciting sex, they aren't committing an offence. Visiting a brothel or massage parlour is not an offence in the UK, although 'kerb crawling' is.
Hmmm. What, exactly, was the legal philosophy that gave birth to that distinction? I'm far more conversant with the sexworker debade in the U.S., which often speaks of the Swedish model....The U.K., well, isn't mentioned as much. Hmmm. The ref. to the English Collective of Prostitutes. Might have to check that out.
quote:Originally posted by Dara bhur gCara:
quote:Originally posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo.: There are two strains of thought about the policy. Some say that this still stigmatizes the sex industry, and the best way to correct the problems in the industry is to give sex work an elevated, more respected sense. Others believe that sex work cannot exist in a fair and equitable way in the current culture, due to the damaging divides of race/sex/class, so any action such as this is only a distraction and a weak elixer offered in place of any sort of solution.
I'm probably in the latter camp, to be honest. I don't think that sex work can exist without exploitation in society as it's currently ordered. The best we can hope for is for it to be as made as safe as possible, while recognising that it, along with society's attitudes to issues of sexuality in general, is fundamentally harmful.
Personally, I'd be 100% in agreement. Unfortunatly, I think the exploitation therein makes the draw even stronger to many Johns, mainly because of our NFBSKed up approach toward sex and sexuality.
BTW, even Jenna Jameson is pretty darned critical of the sex industry.
-------------------- So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus: Posts: 3216 | From: Denver, CO | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo.: It's an attempt, albeit a contraversal one, to reduce some of the dangers of sex work
What about the "Nevada" model? It would seem like (to my naive self) making it totally "legal" with regulations and inspections and such would be the way to go. It would seem to give the "john" a way to have "safe" sex AND give the sex worker a "safe" place to get paid for her services.
-------------------- And now for something completely different... Posts: 4164 | From: Alabama | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Doug4.7: [What about the "Nevada" model? It would seem like (to my naive self) making it totally "legal" with regulations and inspections and such would be the way to go. It would seem to give the "john" a way to have "safe" sex AND give the sex worker a "safe" place to get paid for her services.
Because all that does is address the legal problems, and does nothing for the social problems (i.e. the inequities in the system which lead many, if not most, sex workers to pursue the work, not to mention the stickiness of consent in such a situation, etc.).
Now, is that preferable to what we have now in the U.S., where sex workers have no protection or recourse whatsoever? Sure. But preferable isn't the end.
-------------------- So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus: Posts: 3216 | From: Denver, CO | Registered: Dec 2005
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Richard W
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
As Llewtrah said on the first page, one problem with the "regulations and inspections" model is that, for the regulations and inspections to mean anything, there have to be standards that it's possible to fail. And the people that fail the standards are likely to be the most vulnerable and desperate, and they're then left in the same position, or a worse position, than they were in before.
In fact Tania Nicol apparently worked in massage parlours in town, but was "asked to leave one 18 months ago. A woman called Sandra, who owned one parlour, told the Ipswich Evening Star this was because of suspicions she was using drugs."
So drug reforms might be needed too. Either that, or the regulations for legal brothels would need to tacitly allow hard drug use while it's still illegal, which seems unlikely.
Ideally there would also be some way to protect people regardless of whether they meet any standards. That might be too idealistic, though... or at least, hard to do using legislation alone. Declaring "amnesty zones" for prostitution and keeping an eye on them might be one way, but of course by the nature of things some people won't like having an eye kept on them.
Posts: 8725 | From: Ipswich - the UK's 9th Best Place to Sleep! | Registered: Feb 2000
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One of the things that really irks me is the constant talk (media, forums) of cutting off the supply of prostitutes. As long as there is a demand, there will be a supply. The supply exists to serve (or in this case, to service) the demand. There will always be men who cannot form relationships or who do not want relationships. I've worked with such guys and they aren't scum. They could stay at home and masturbate, but they also have the biological urge to have sex with a partner (whether same or other sex). The demand isn't going to go away.
It's not just a case of men exploiting vulnerable women who desperately need money. Women are equally capable of exploiting the male sex drive for financial gain.
Dara bhur gCara
As Shepherds Watched Their Flocks Buy Now Pay Later
posted
quote:Originally posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo.: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Dara bhur gCara: [qb]Hmmm. What, exactly, was the legal philosophy that gave birth to that distinction?
Well, I'm not entirely sure, but I would imagine it's on the basis of public nuisance. It stands to reason that a someone openly and public soliciting someone for sex causes more of a public order problem than someone visiting a brothel or massage parlour.
quote: I'm far more conversant with the sexworker debade in the U.S., which often speaks of the Swedish model....The U.K., well, isn't mentioned as much. Hmmm. The ref. to the English Collective of Prostitutes. Might have to check that out.
quote:The law which criminalises child prostitutes remains despite opposition from children’s charities, the Magistrates Association and many others.
Anti-trafficking legislation, which has resulted in the deportation of many women, is promoted and extended. Experience from Soho and other areas shows that far from protecting women from violence and exploitation, these laws are primarily used as sexed-up immigration controls to deport sex workers. Domestic violence, homelessness, poverty and debt are acknowledged as major factors suggesting "survival to be the overriding motivation” in driving women and children into prostitution. But none of the questions in the report address the issues of domestic violence, poverty and debt, and only one that of homelessness.
The report hides the impact of government policies of privatisation and cuts in benefits and services which have increased poverty and forced more women and young people into prostitution. Where projects or services exist or are proposed, it is research and counselling that is put forward rather than concrete resources
While the "Nevada Model" does address the legal issues surrounding prostitution, and it also addresses the tax implications of working in prostitution, it would be naive and foolish to think that that addresses the issues of illegal prostitution. Wikipedia claims that
quote:Escort services offering sexual services euphemistically as 'entertainment' or 'companionship' are ubiquitous, with about 140 pages of the Las Vegas yellow pages devoted to "entertainers". Similar ads are present in newspaper boxes all along Las Vegas Boulevard. From the Strip to downtown Fremont Street at most bus stops and many street lights, a large collection of free flyers offering escort services with semi-nude pictures are available (see photo above). Moreover, smaller hand sized flyers are dispensed to tourists and others along the Las Vegas Strip, often right in front of the most high end hotels and casinos, by hired day laborers; these flyers also graphically depict female ‘personal’ entertainers or escort services. Despite the attempt to make Las Vegas more family-friendly, such advertising for these services are legal and goes on undisturbed by police or hotel security.
The legal brothels in Nevada simply operate at the high end of the market, and are a mere drop in the sex-worker ocean. They also, as Richard says, might make 'unreasonable' demands on their workers such as no hard drug addiction, no previous offences for soliciting, and I've also read that they are often discriminatory on the grounds of appearance. There aren't many zaftig, transgender, or women of colour working in these establishments, nor are there any licensed gay brothels.
If the legal brothels in Nevada had been shown to reduce the levels of illegal prostitution, then they would be of some benefit. However, since they don't, they offer rather more in the way of protection and peace of mind to their clientele than the sex workers themselves. Which is all well and good as far as that goes, but the concern is that it legitimises prostitution in and of itself.
If we are serious about addressing the issues of prostitution, then we probably need a grown up conversation about the causes of prostitution. Certainly decriminalisation should be part of it, as should the complete decriminalisation of possession of all drugs, and possibly even the supply of hard drugs to addicts. However, I still think it should be recognised that Prostitution is A Bad Thing. It's not a victimless crime; the victims are the criminals.
-------------------- This wrinkle in time, I can't give it no credit, I thought about my space and it really got me down. Got me so down, I got me a headache, My heart is crammed in my cranium and it still knows how to pound Posts: 2794 | From: London, UK | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Llewtrah: =There will always be men who cannot form relationships or who do not want relationships. I've worked with such guys and they aren't scum.
All of them? Of course not. There is nothing, NOTHING, wrong at all with sex work....in a vacuum However, none of us live in a vacuum, and, again, race/class/sex divides are far too extreme to create an across the board, equitable, healthy sex trade built on mutual respect.
For example, a responsible dom decides to contract out her/his services. This is, most often, far different than the type of exchanges that occur in most other type of sex work, just as the work of Annie Sprinkle is far, far different than your average "Gang bang 3000...see how much we can make her bleed" hetro porn.
That responsible dom expects respect, and, if s/he is indeed a good dom, will respect the sub who is contracting the service.
However, with many of the johns I've known, they couldn't care less who the provider is or how truly consensual his/her actions are. they want to cum, and they couldn't care less about who they are using.
That is an irresponsible attitude, born of entitlement, and that attitude is not going to change if you just legalize instead of changing cultural attitudes.
quote:Originally posted by Llewtrah: It's not just a case of men exploiting vulnerable women who desperately need money. Women are equally capable of exploiting the male sex drive for financial gain.
And I'm so very tired of hearing this line. So....very....essentialist. Not to mention irritating. Kinda like a millionaire bitching because their domestic worker stole a couple of "thou" and took off. Ahh, yes. Thou with power in the equation, thou are the most truly harmed.
Not to mention, this attitude exposes EXACTLY what the problem is in sex work.
A) It posits a male = buyer, female = provider attitude. Until that dissapears, the gender inequities will remain, fester, infect the entire transaction.
B) It posits that the need to have a NFBSKhole is equal to the need for clothing, food, shelter, or numbness, which is ridiculious.
C) It posits that the nature of the transaction is and always will be one of exploited/exploiter, with just the role changing.
This view does NOTHING to advance any sort of equitable, healthy model of sex work (or healthy gender relations).
-------------------- So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus: Posts: 3216 | From: Denver, CO | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Dara bhur gCara: If the legal brothels in Nevada had been shown to reduce the levels of illegal prostitution, then they would be of some benefit. However, since they don't, they offer rather more in the way of protection and peace of mind to their clientele than the sex workers themselves.
That pretty much answers my question about the "Nevada" model.
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posted
On the news just now they said that Stevens hasn't been charged with anything, and that they're still going through his house for evidence. So I doubt that he has confessed. In fact, they've just said that he's explicitly denied it (although that doesn't mean that they're talking about anything other than the previous interviews). Turns out he was a former Special Constable. And, just for the sake of an odd detail, they just showed a picture of a bunch of flowers sellotaped to a lamppost around here with a note from him to them saying that he missed them all.
On the issue of prostitution and legalisation, On Newsnight last week, a couple of experts said a couple of things that I think are relevant.
The first was that there's a movement towards finding a "perfect" solution to the problem, wheras there's no such thing.
The second was that really we're looking at two separate issues - the prostitution itself, and the drug issue. The guy speaking was a former chief Officer of 30 years, and he said that he'd not seen one drugs initiative by the police that didn't either do nothing, or make the situation worse. What he said was that heroin should be prescribed by Doctors for addicts. Again, he said that it wasn't an ideal solution (and a Government minister spoke against him very strongly), but he said that it would eliminate the need to get money for heroin, as well as eliminating the dangers inherent in heroin addition itself - getting bad stuff, sharing needles, etc.
-------------------- seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears. Posts: 16061 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2000
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quote:Originally posted by trollface: The first was that there's a movement towards finding a "perfect" solution to the problem, wheras there's no such thing.
I think the focus has been on finding a "solution" to a cultural issue without actually looking at and assessing the culture and being willing to change it. But, yeah.....pretty much. Also, there have been so many issues between people who should have been allies, who should have been working together, that are, instead, fighting one another, instead of taking on the most dangerous element.
quote:Originally posted by trollface: The second was that really we're looking at two separate issues - the prostitution itself, and the drug issue.
Eehhh. No. Not really. True, there is a high rate of coincidence between sex work and drugs, but it's difficult to tease out which comes from where. There's also a really, really high coincidence with sex work, drug abuse, and sexual abuse (typically as a minor).
As an example. S.O. (who's an addictions counselor) recently got two intakes who are escorts. Both are meth and alcohol users, both have a history of sexual abuse. Here's the thing, though. He's found that you can't treat the three things as distinct and seperate. They're interwoven. I.E. the sex work causes them emotional reactions, so they abuse drugs/liquor. The drugs/liquor renders them able to perform the sex work. And the sexual abuse often prefigures the entire mess.
If you, as a child or young person, are taught that your worth lies in your body, or that the best way to manipulate/assuage people is through your body, or that you have no expectation of your right to your body and to having it treated as you desire, than you will be more likely to fall into the sex trade.
This, I think, would change dramatically if sex work were seen as respectful, a mutual joy, a dual activity. Or it would change dramatically if cultural attitudes towards worth (esp. female worth) changed.
-------------------- So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus: Posts: 3216 | From: Denver, CO | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
Ryda, you seem to be an idealist. Sorry to burst your bubble, but we aren't talking doms/subs here. We talking prostitution. And the equation is, for the main part male=buyer, female=seller (there are relatively few males selling sex to women). Like it or not, that's how it works and it is linked to human sexual nature.
Women are equally capable of exploiting men for the money. I've seen it (it's called gold digging) and I've found myself in situations where I had the opportunity to exploit a desperate guy and fleece him of his money in return for sex. So I really don't care how tired you are of hearing that line - I've had first hand experience of that situation (for the record, I didn't do it).
Sorry, but your dream world of equitable sex work isn't going to happen in the wider world - not so long as guys have dicks and women have holes to put them in. It hasn't happened in the whole of human history and no matter how idealistically you rant about it, it just isn't going to happen. Human history - sexual and otherwise - is about exploitation. Short of genetic enginering, you aren't going to change human nature. I think you're the one living in the vacuum.
quote:Originally posted by Llewtrah: Ryda, you seem to be an idealist. Sorry to burst your bubble, but we aren't talking doms/subs here. We talking prostitution.
It seemed quite clear to me that Ryda used the dom/sub illustration to contrast such a scenario with prostitution, not because she mistook the topic of the thread.
Ryda and I frequently disagree, but she's not stupid, and there's nothing wrong with her reading comprehension.
-------------------- How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black Posts: 8322 | From: Columbus, OH | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Llewtrah: Ryda, you seem to be an idealist. Sorry to burst your bubble, but we aren't talking doms/subs here. We talking prostitution. And the equation is, for the main part male=buyer, female=seller (there are relatively few males selling sex to women). Like it or not, that's how it works and it is linked to human sexual nature.
Sorry, but I disagree. I think the world of BDSM deals with many of the same issues (i.e. need and how one meets need) but does it with (ideally) respect and full, informed consent. I also refuse to believe that men are incapable of behaving with respect and are not condemed to being asses simply because of their plumbing. To believe otherwise is the height of disrespect for individual people who just happen to be male and would rather die than behave in such a manner.
But, hey, if you'd rather think of men as nothing more than insects incapable of thought, reason, and restraint, so be it.
There are more human sexual natures than a narrow "men want it and women are willing to sell it" ideal. In fact, that very approach is what has led to the mess we've made of gender relations as they stand.
Why not look at as: "Humans enjoy sex. How can we make sexual relations equitable, and make sex as accessible as it can be, while still respecting all parties involved." Why is that so objectionable?
-------------------- So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus: Posts: 3216 | From: Denver, CO | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Llewtrah: Women are equally capable of exploiting men for the money. I've seen it (it's called gold digging) and I've found myself in situations where I had the opportunity to exploit a desperate guy and fleece him of his money in return for sex. So I really don't care how tired you are of hearing that line - I've had first hand experience of that situation (for the record, I didn't do it).
Do you really believe that the harm caused by golddigging is comparable to the harm caused by prostitution?
quote:Sorry, but your dream world of equitable sex work isn't going to happen in the wider world - not so long as guys have dicks and women have holes to put them in. It hasn't happened in the whole of human history and no matter how idealistically you rant about it, it just isn't going to happen. Human history - sexual and otherwise - is about exploitation. Short of genetic enginering, you aren't going to change human nature. I think you're the one living in the vacuum.
Similar things have been said in the past about getting light-skinned people to stop abusing and exploiting darker-skinned people. And true, we haven't eliminated it. But we (humans as a whole) have improved the situaation, and we did it, in part, by envisioning an unrealistic "dream world."
-------------------- How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black Posts: 8322 | From: Columbus, OH | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Lainie: Do you really believe that the harm caused by golddigging is comparable to the harm caused by prostitution?
It is possible. Every time a high-profile case of gold-digging comes up, it can further the harmful stereotype. But since those "convinced" are the ones who use this, maybe it is only preaching to the choir.
-------------------- IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan Posts: 3694 | From: Arizona | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo.: I think the focus has been on finding a "solution" to a cultural issue without actually looking at and assessing the culture and being willing to change it.
But, if you're a police chief, or a politician being called on to solve the prostitution problem, you can hardly say "well, it's a cultural issue. Men and women have to change their attitudes". No, you have to look for a practical solution in the here and now that addresses everybody's complaints and needs to the best of your ability.
quote:Eehhh. No. Not really. True, there is a high rate of coincidence between sex work and drugs, but it's difficult to tease out which comes from where. There's also a really, really high coincidence with sex work, drug abuse, and sexual abuse (typically as a minor).
I realise that. That's kind of what he (and I) meant. It's useless to try to address the prostitution problem without looking at the heroin problem. Of course there is also the abuse issue, but that's not a police matter in the same way that the other two are.
-------------------- seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears. Posts: 16061 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2000
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quote:Originally posted by trollface: No, you have to look for a practical solution in the here and now that addresses everybody's complaints and needs to the best of your ability.
Gotcha. I was sorta confused by what sort of "expert" you were quoting. I thought the "a former chief Officer of 30 years" part was just a part of his credentials. I didn't pick up that they were experts only on the legal end/were addressing only the legal aspects. I was thinking they were more of the broad spectum type.
My bad....
-------------------- So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus: Posts: 3216 | From: Denver, CO | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Lainie: Do you really believe that the harm caused by golddigging is comparable to the harm caused by prostitution?
It is possible. Every time a high-profile case of gold-digging comes up, it can further the harmful stereotype. But since those "convinced" are the ones who use this, maybe it is only preaching to the choir.
Come into the business world and look at the number of broken families caused by gold-digging. Forget the high profile cases, it goes on all around us. Money is a powerful aphrodisiac and there have been plenty of bosses who thought they were having a discreet affair with their assistant, only to end up paying her more and more.
People get very blinkered by looking at only the high profile cases and missing what may be right under their noses.
quote:Originally posted by Llewtrah: Come into the business world and look at the number of broken families caused by gold-digging. Forget the high profile cases, it goes on all around us. Money is a powerful aphrodisiac and there have been plenty of bosses who thought they were having a discreet affair with their assistant, only to end up paying her more and more.
Running around pointing out how the lights are out and refusing to look into the cause of the blackout isn't going to do a damned thing to fix downed power lines.....
-------------------- So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus: Posts: 3216 | From: Denver, CO | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Lainie: Do you really believe that the harm caused by golddigging is comparable to the harm caused by prostitution?
It is possible. Every time a high-profile case of gold-digging comes up, it can further the harmful stereotype. But since those "convinced" are the ones who use this, maybe it is only preaching to the choir.
Come into the business world and look at the number of broken families caused by gold-digging. Forget the high profile cases, it goes on all around us. Money is a powerful aphrodisiac and there have been plenty of bosses who thought they were having a discreet affair with their assistant, only to end up paying her more and more.
And it's the gold-digging alone that breaks up those families? Not the adultery? Not the boss's assumption that, despite his family commitments, he was entitled to have a discreet affair with his assistant, consequence-free?
Oh, and speak for yourself. I've been in the business world for 20 years, and the behavior you describe does not go on all around me.
-------------------- How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black Posts: 8322 | From: Columbus, OH | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo.: Gotcha. I was sorta confused by what sort of "expert" you were quoting. I thought the "a former chief Officer of 30 years" part was just a part of his credentials. I didn't pick up that they were experts only on the legal end/were addressing only the legal aspects. I was thinking they were more of the broad spectum type.
I should have been clearer. The people discussing it were the police chief mentioned, a former prostitute (they didn't say, but I get the impression that she had something to do with the Union, or some other semi-official organisation), and a former minister who was a party to the last round of discussions in Parliament as to whether and how to legalise prostitution (in that case of allowing two women to work together in one house. She seemed to be skirting around the issue of why it was overturned, but rather gave herself away when she described the government in that situation as a "pimp" and said that such a law wouldn't be "moral").
-------------------- seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears. Posts: 16061 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2000
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[QUOTE]Sorry, but your dream world of equitable sex work isn't going to happen in the wider world - not so long as guys have dicks and women have holes to put them in. It hasn't happened in the whole of human history and no matter how idealistically you rant about it, it just isn't going to happen. Human history - sexual and otherwise - is about exploitation. Short of genetic enginering, you aren't going to change human nature. I think you're the one living in the vacuum.
Similar things have been said in the past about getting light-skinned people to stop abusing and exploiting darker-skinned people. And true, we haven't eliminated it. But we (humans as a whole) have improved the situaation, and we did it, in part, by envisioning an unrealistic "dream world."
How long has slavery being going on in primate evolutionary terms? How long have sexual transactions been going on in primate evolutionary terms. Sexual transactions for food or protection have been observed in baboon troupes. Slavery hasn't. Sexual transactions may be part of primate nature while slavery would appear to be an aberration. It is easier to eradicate an aberration than to eradicate part of primate nature (humans are primates).
Around the world it continues unabated in various forms. It also continues closer to home: Philipino housemaids whose passports are confiscated by their "employers", gangmasters supplying labour for cockling and flower-picking. People trafficking continues. We've only removed the overt signs of it. Have we improved the situation? We just enslave a different set of people by different means (illegal immigrants have no rights).
quote:Originally posted by Llewtrah: Around the world it continues unabated in various forms. It also continues closer to home: Philipino housemaids whose passports are confiscated by their "employers", gangmasters supplying labour for cockling and flower-picking. People trafficking continues. We've only removed the overt signs of it. Have we improved the situation? We just enslave a different set of people by different means (illegal immigrants have no rights).
And your answer is to just give up? Stop tallking about it? That's what you're suggesting Ryda do re: the exploitation of sex workers.
-------------------- How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black Posts: 8322 | From: Columbus, OH | Registered: Aug 2005
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