quote:Originally posted by keokuk: It's also interesting that it seems to be such a polarizing issue. I mentioned in an earlier post how I could get myself in trouble if I had called a 23-year-old a woman in a given context, but it seems that if it were another person, I would have gotten myself in trouble for NOT calling her a woman.
I'm not sure that's the correct use of the word "polarizing," or that the situation is as unique as you suggest. Context is an important part of any social interaction. There are many comments that I could appropriately make to my close friends that would be inappropriate to make to my boss -- and vice versa.
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DemonWolf
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to me, the use of the term "lady" as an insult is something I've never heard.
I have always been taught the it is the female equivelant to "gentleman" - using the definition of " (2) : a man whose conduct conforms to a high standard of propriety or correct behavior. I am no tassuming you to be nobility, simply showing you the courtest of addressing you as a "person of quality," especially if I were speaking of you in the third person, such as "please show the gentleman to a seat."
Using lady, I by no means imply that you are a "Scarlet O'Hara," but I am using a term that shows you the same degree of respect, again, especially in the 3rd person - "please show this lady to a seat." In either case (gentleman or lady), in the 3rd person ,a complimenary adjective may be added depending on how formal the occasion is or if I am speaking to a very young child - " Tell the nice gentleman/lady thank you." OTOH, "Hey, lady" is about the same as "Hey buddy/pal" and is not a polite form of address.
As far as the whole girl debate, My litmus test for the appropriateness of the word is to replace is with "boy." "Out with the boys/girls", IMO, is fine. "follow me, boy/girl" is not and would be insulting. "Girl" has also taken the place of the word "gal" as the feminine form of "guy." So "we have three guys, four girls going on the trip," IMO, is fine. If the word girl can be replaced with "guy," then it is not likely intended as an insult or in a condecending manner.
The phrqase in the OP could go either way, let's look:
"About six months ago they hired this girl."
Could be the same as either: "About six months ago they hired this boy."
or
"About six months ago they hired this Guy."
If it is meant in the first manner (boy), then, yes, I can see why offense could be taken. If it is meant as the second, then I do not see the problem.
The word I personally avoid is "ma'am" because it is often taken to mean "old." Specifically, "ma'am" is a form of address for a woman, but "miss" is specifially reserved for young women, therefore a woman being called "ma'am" might infer that the speaker does not consider her young (AKA- old). I'm still not sure how to use that one without hearing, "So, I'm a 'ma'am,' am I?" The conversation usually goes downhill from there. Best to avoid it, IMO.
-------------------- Friends are like skittles: they come in many colors, and some are fruity!
quote:Originally posted by keokuk: It's also interesting that it seems to be such a polarizing issue. I mentioned in an earlier post how I could get myself in trouble if I had called a 23-year-old a woman in a given context, but it seems that if it were another person, I would have gotten myself in trouble for NOT calling her a woman.
I'm not sure that's the correct use of the word "polarizing," or that the situation is as unique as you suggest. Context is an important part of any social interaction. There are many comments that I could appropriately make to my close friends that would be inappropriate to make to my boss -- and vice versa.
Sometimes I forget that I work in a small and informal office environment. I think that's why the lines seem so blurred to me on this.
Posts: 345 | From: Washington, DC | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
But Demonwolf, I don't *want* my behavior to correspond to the highest possible standards of propriety or correctness. That would be absurdly limiting. How could a lady ever have sex, or give birth, or get involved in the messy details of running a country?
-------------------- ~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~ Posts: 10111 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by abigsmurf: Don't forget 'woman' itself carries certain implications which potientially could cause 'offense' (I use that word in the lightest possible way as I find this topic insanely petty).
What implications do you think "woman" carries?
Not to speak for someone else, but as I mentioned in an earlier post, if I had called someone one year older than me (23) a woman rather than a girl in a given context, it would have come off as though I considered a strong disconnect in age. It would have made the rest of my sentence sound insincere, and she would have likely been offended by it.
Likewise, if I found out that my friend had asked her roommate the same question she asked me, and her roommate referred to me a man rather than a boy or a kid, I would have interpreted it as veiled hostility.
Really? Veiled hostility?
And yet adult women who don't want to be called "girl" all our lives are over-sensitive?
When I was 23, I preferred to be called "woman" in professional situations. As far as social situations are concerned, well, then we're back to the concept of context.
-------------------- How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black Posts: 8322 | From: Columbus, OH | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
One problem with this thread is that a lot of us seem to be trying to speak for ALL women. I'm guilty of this myself; I mean to say "the women I know" but I end up saying "most women". I've just done an informal survey around the office, and nobody here is offended by the use of "girl", though one of them thought it was a bit "odd".
-------------------- I believe I'm growing skeptical of cynicism. MyspaceNWNBoard Posts: 917 | From: Nashville TN | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by 1958Fury: One problem with this thread is that a lot of us seem to be trying to speak for ALL women. I'm guilty of this myself; I mean to say "the women I know" but I end up saying "most women". I've just done an informal survey around the office, and nobody here is offended by the use of "girl", though one of them thought it was a bit "odd".
I'm not going to speak for any woman but myself - I would find the use of the word girl (as applied to me) either inappropriate or odd coming from any but my nearest and dearest. I would not be offended unless I felt that the person using that word intended to cause offense. But I would not appreciate it or find it complimentary.
-------------------- If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr Posts: 18428 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Lainie: And yet adult women who don't want to be called "girl" all our lives are over-sensitive?
When I was 23, I preferred to be called "woman" in professional situations. As far as social situations are concerned, well, then we're back to the concept of context. [/QB]
I'm not one who considers it to be oversensitive to not want to be called "girl." I think my posts to this point paint me as being much further toward one side of the issue than I really am.
My position is that it's more of a "different strokes for different folks" situation and that in business or personal relationships, it's the way that the term is said that carries more weight than the word itself.
The fact that I would consider being called a "man" in any context to be a sign of condescension from someone is something that I would internally consider, but not something that would cause me to change my opinion of a person or speak out to correct them. It also speaks to my bizarre way of thinking. If someone calls me boy or kid, then I assume that they're talking in jest or using it as a term of indearment. If someone calls me a man, it's because they're trying to be subtle in pointing out that I really AM still just a kid.
Posts: 345 | From: Washington, DC | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Christie: Either her complaints are "technically" legitimate or they are not legitimate at all. Getting fired over a minor complaint seems unlikely to me. Are you positive you are privy to the whole story in those situations?
No, I don't know the whole story, just what I overhear and am told from what I believe to be reliable sources. But it could be possible there's more I don't know. Actually I'm sure there is but I do know the people in question and the stories make sense by what I know.
Wow, this topic is already four pages. I have a lot of reading ahead of me.
Posts: 835 | From: Massachusetts | Registered: Feb 2004
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Emphasis mine. Personally, I find this language to weaken your claim from the start. I doubt she's a child. Therefore, she's a woman. Not a girl.
He also said "boobs" instead of "breasts." That, coupled with the fact that he now admits he doesn't know the whole story, makes me think this isn't the case of political correctness run amuck that he's making it out to be.
ETA: While I can't recall ever complimenting a woman on her shoes, I have done so with skirts, sweaters, etc, and have never - not once - received anything in return except for a smile and a "thanks." Which doesn't make it impossible that this, er, gyno-human (that ought to be inoffensive to one and all) reacted inappropriately to a compliment, but I do doubt it. (And it goes without saying that "you can't even say she looks pretty anymore!" is a common whine from guys - not men, guys - who really mean it's no longer acceptable to hoot and whistle and gawk at women.)
-------------------- Another lifetime I'd have fallen in love with you Swept away by my feelings, ashamed and confused But just now it's enough to be walking with you Let the mystery play as it will! -Lui Collins Posts: 2669 | From: Jouy en Josas, France | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Ramblin' Dave, ramblin' again:
quote:Originally posted by Ryda Wong:
quote:Originally posted by Hubert Cumberdale:
About six months ago they hired this girl.
Emphasis mine. Personally, I find this language to weaken your claim from the start. I doubt she's a child. Therefore, she's a woman. Not a girl.
He also said "boobs" instead of "breasts." That, coupled with the fact that he now admits he doesn't know the whole story, makes me think this isn't the case of political correctness run amuck that he's making it out to be.
ETA: While I can't recall ever complimenting a woman on her shoes, I have done so with skirts, sweaters, etc, and have never - not once - received anything in return except for a smile and a "thanks." Which doesn't make it impossible that this, er, gyno-human (that ought to be inoffensive to one and all) reacted inappropriately to a compliment, but I do doubt it. (And it goes without saying that "you can't even say she looks pretty anymore!" is a common whine from guys - not men, guys - who really mean it's no longer acceptable to hoot and whistle and gawk at women.)
I heart you Dave. Your attitude about this kind of thing is always so refreshingly correct.
-------------------- Officially Heartless Posts: 3065 | From: The Montgomery County of the West Coast- Berkeley, CA | Registered: Nov 2005
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DemonWolf
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quote:Originally posted by Chloe: But Demonwolf, I don't *want* my behavior to correspond to the highest possible standards of propriety or correctness. That would be absurdly limiting. How could a lady ever have sex, or give birth, or get involved in the messy details of running a country?
But wouldn't be rude of me to assume otherwise? I personally would view it as an insult if I did not assume the you had high standards.
In that situation, usually "gentleman/lady? Where?" will let the person know that you are more relaxed and laid back than one to whom "gentleman/lady" would normally apply.
Basically, isn't it less insulting to assume the better of someone and let them choose to correct you than to not assume the best and risk insulting?
Also, gentleman/lady is probably more appropriate for a more formal setting, such as an employee addressing a customer, etc.
ETA: the implication is that the behavior being commented on relates to how one behave in public. It is probably a safe guess that you do not often have sex or give birth in public. As far as getting into the messy details of running a country, politicians are usually expected to behave properly in public. There are many women in politics and even heads of state that I would describe as "Ladies," and even as "Classy." I do not see the two as mutually exclusive. As a matter of fact, giving the right impression usually works in your favor as a person who seems uncouth and uneducated rarely gets elected.
(Although Bush proves that there are obviously exceptions.)
-------------------- Friends are like skittles: they come in many colors, and some are fruity!
Rhiandmoi
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I am an American Female, 27 years old. Girl is anyone that I consider "my age", female children are Little Girls. Girl is the female equivalent of Guy. This is informal language. If I was recounting a story about a female coworker on a message board and she was "my age" I might use the term girl.
On other topics: I have accidentally grabbed boob in all kinds of situations. It happens sometimes. But I do know about the fine art of the accidental boob grab, so without knowing more about the boob grabbing situation it is hard to say.
-------------------- I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.
posted
For some irrational reason this topic just ticks me off. I need to examine that. But I think the bottom line is that the rules of social behavior are confusing enough for me, I don't like having gray areas. I always figured as long as I didn't really descend into the pejorative I was fine.
The more I find that statements I believe to be innocuous can be misinterpreted and cause offense, and that that offense becomes MY fault, the angrier I get. And the less that makes me want to interact with people. Misanthropy is only a few more missed conversations away...
-------------------- "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die." Posts: 2776 | From: LSA Anaconda, Iraq | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by CannonFodder Global Trotter: For some irrational reason this topic just ticks me off. I need to examine that. But I think the bottom line is that the rules of social behavior are confusing enough for me, I don't like having gray areas. I always figured as long as I didn't really descend into the pejorative I was fine.
The more I find that statements I believe to be innocuous can be misinterpreted and cause offense, and that that offense becomes MY fault, the angrier I get. And the less that makes me want to interact with people. Misanthropy is only a few more missed conversations away...
Interestingly the only real anger I've seen on this thread is from a few people who don't appreciate finding out that others have opinions on what they prefer to be called.
-------------------- If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr Posts: 18428 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Ramblin' Dave, ramblin' again: He also said "boobs" instead of "breasts." That, coupled with the fact that he now admits he doesn't know the whole story, makes me think this isn't the case of political correctness run amuck that he's making it out to be.
Again, "boobs" I find to be informal but acceptable (and Snopes is an informal setting, so what's wrong with boobs or girl?) while "breasts" more suited to a formal discussion. I don't hear boobs or breasts discussed much at work, unless it is in the canteen looking at page 3 of the Sun newspaper in which case it's boobs, jugs, tits, knockers etc depending on who is in earshot.
quote:Originally posted by CannonFodder Global Trotter: For some irrational reason this topic just ticks me off. I need to examine that. But I think the bottom line is that the rules of social behavior are confusing enough for me, I don't like having gray areas. I always figured as long as I didn't really descend into the pejorative I was fine.
The more I find that statements I believe to be innocuous can be misinterpreted and cause offense, and that that offense becomes MY fault, the angrier I get. And the less that makes me want to interact with people. Misanthropy is only a few more missed conversations away...
Interestingly the only real anger I've seen on this thread is from a few people who don't appreciate finding out that others have opinions on what they prefer to be called.
That's the thing, I suppose I have opinions on what I prefer to be called, but I don't become offended if someone uses another term as long as offense wasn't intended on their part. I guess I see being offended as a pretty serious thing. Maybe being offended is a more trivial matter for some, more like just being annoyed? I don't know. Perhaps I'm making more of this than it actually is.
-------------------- "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die." Posts: 2776 | From: LSA Anaconda, Iraq | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Llewtrah: Again, "boobs" I find to be informal but acceptable (and Snopes is an informal setting, so what's wrong with boobs or girl?) while "breasts" more suited to a formal discussion.
To me, it's context. Yes, this board is an informal discussion, but he's talking about a woman he barely knows, and about her accusations of sexual harassment. "Breasts," in that context, sounds more respectful to me.
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Sara at home
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quote:Originally posted by snapdragonfly: But you DID use dudette, didn't you?
No, not ever. I wasn't even aware that was suppose to be from the same era. <--Sara back in the day
-------------------- Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread. Posts: 8317 | From: Reading, PA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by snapdragonfly: But you DID use dudette, didn't you?
No, not ever. I wasn't even aware that was suppose to be from the same era. <--Sara back in the day
Come to think of it, I can remember saying groovy. Hey, if it was good enough for Marcia Brady it was good enough for me .
-------------------- If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr Posts: 18428 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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quote:Originally posted by CannonFodder Global Trotter: For some irrational reason this topic just ticks me off. I need to examine that. But I think the bottom line is that the rules of social behavior are confusing enough for me, I don't like having gray areas. I always figured as long as I didn't really descend into the pejorative I was fine.
The more I find that statements I believe to be innocuous can be misinterpreted and cause offense, and that that offense becomes MY fault, the angrier I get. And the less that makes me want to interact with people. Misanthropy is only a few more missed conversations away...
I get you. I wouldn't say that it ticks me off, but I am a little bewildered that "girl" can be offensive. I'm not saying that anyone offended by the term is wrong to be offended...obviously if it offends you in any way at all, then your feelings are valid.
I just did a very informal polling of the seven women currently working in my office: our Business Manager, two sales reps, one writer, two women in our production dept., and an intern. They range in age between 18 (the intern) to 60ish. None of them seemed to have any problem with being called "girl".
So there! Conclusive proof! "Seven women surveyed said that...."
I'm a 35 year-old male, but if anyone wants to call me boy, please feel free.
I wish I was a boy! It'd be nice to worry only about football practice, fishing, riding my bike and the Red Sox again...
-------------------- Support you local community newspaper! CNN.com probably won't be covering your child's spelling bee. Posts: 609 | From: Rhode Island | Registered: May 2005
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posted
I don't object to being called girl. Lady reminds me too much of Jerry Lewis. Ma'am makes me feel old. Woman sounds too stilted.
Where I work, the admin staff pretty much refer to each other as girls (except for the lone male staff member we have. He's just "jerk"). My supervisor refers to me as his crack assistant. But if he wanted to say "My girl will type that paper for me," I wouldn't care.
Regarding the OP - stay away from her. If she's as bad as you say, reporting people for the tiniest offense, stay as far away from her as you can. If she hears you say "boobs" you'll be gone next.
We worked at one time with a gentleman (and I use the term oh so loosely) from Israel. He was the biggest sexual harassment offender I have ever seen. Nice guy, when he wasn't talking to my chest. But he was never reported. Probably because we're a small place and not as PC as the rest of the world.
-------------------- "Maybe getting in the last word doesn't really mean you win." - The Clarks Posts: 486 | From: Pittsburgh, PA | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Ramblin' Dave, ramblin' again:
quote:Originally posted by Ryda Wong:
quote:Originally posted by Hubert Cumberdale:
About six months ago they hired this girl.
Emphasis mine. Personally, I find this language to weaken your claim from the start. I doubt she's a child. Therefore, she's a woman. Not a girl.
He also said "boobs" instead of "breasts." That, coupled with the fact that he now admits he doesn't know the whole story, makes me think this isn't the case of political correctness run amuck that he's making it out to be.
Nice catch! We should tag team more often.
quote:Originally posted by Ramblin' Dave, ramblin' again: (And it goes without saying that "you can't even say she looks pretty anymore!" is a common whine from guys - not men, guys - who really mean it's no longer acceptable to hoot and whistle and gawk at women.)
Yup. There's a difference between a mature man who sincerely respects you saying something about your attire, and a sleezeball saying the same thing. On the first, it comes out as a sincere compliment. On the second, it sounds like "You look right purty, little girl"
-------------------- So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus: Posts: 3216 | From: Denver, CO | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by smackmac: Regarding the OP - stay away from her. If she's as bad as you say, reporting people for the tiniest offense, stay as far away from her as you can. If she hears you say "boobs" you'll be gone next.
The key word there is "if." She may not be that bad at all. Hubert Cumberdale said himself that he doesn't know the whole story, and certainly nobody here does. It would be unfair to judge her (or the men she's accused) based on the information we have.
-------------------- How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black Posts: 8322 | From: Columbus, OH | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
I just did a quick informal survey as well. Unfortunately there aren't actually any women around to survey, but after knocking on some doors and asking the question 'what do you prefer to be called in a professional setting'; here are the answers I was given:
"I don't give a NFBSK." "You woke me up for this?" (his light was on) "I'd like it if you guys would start calling me sir instead of 'arrogant little butterbar'." "Sergeant, my door is locked and my room mate is on shift. Why are you bothering me with this right now?"
I just wanted to share.
-------------------- "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die." Posts: 2776 | From: LSA Anaconda, Iraq | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
I don't really see the point of getting worked up about whether or not someone calls me girl or lady if their intentions are are not to insult. There are too many more important issues that I'm saving my energy for.
However, I do object to being called "red". That will only be permissable when it is considered polite to call someone "baldie".
-------------------- So many books, so little time. Posts: 1192 | From: McDonough, Georgia | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by CannonFodder Global Trotter: I just did a quick informal survey as well. Unfortunately there aren't actually any women around to survey, but after knocking on some doors and asking the question 'what do you prefer to be called in a professional setting'; here are the answers I was given:
"I don't give a NFBSK." "You woke me up for this?" (his light was on) "I'd like it if you guys would start calling me sir instead of 'arrogant little butterbar'." "Sergeant, my door is locked and my room mate is on shift. Why are you bothering me with this right now?"
I just wanted to share.
You, Sergeant, OMANK !
-------------------- Support you local community newspaper! CNN.com probably won't be covering your child's spelling bee. Posts: 609 | From: Rhode Island | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by frogpond: However, I do object to being called "red". That will only be permissable when it is considered polite to call someone "baldie".
Round here that's "slaphead" (for the follicly challenged) thank you very much
posted
And once again, I would like to point out that the discussion of "girl" has NOTHING to do with "offense" for me.
That word gets applied to this discussions far too often. I believe that the use of the word "girl" in the context in which it was used, along with, as Dave pointed out, the use of the word "boobs" gave me reason to question what followed in terms of veracity and perspective. It appears that this suspicion was correct, as the OP admitted he didn't have any official or first-hand knowledge of the topic.
And, personally, I do not think that referring to a collegue as a girl is respectful. One thing if y'all are all sittin' in a bar, or if you have a close, cozy, personal relationship. But as a catch-all? Nope. And it irritates me, but it dosen't offend me.
And I agree with Christie, it's those who don't see anything wrong with it who are reacting with such venom, posting that they are "offended" or "ticked off." And it's an attitude that comes up pretty much every time gender related issues are under discussion.
For the record, my first post was three paragraphs long. The girl thing comprised two sentences of that. The remainder of the content was ignored, and that minor point was latched onto like a catch dog on a hog.
I just think it's a bit odd in the context of the fact that I get castigated for nit-picking.
-------------------- So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus: Posts: 3216 | From: Denver, CO | Registered: Dec 2005
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