quote:Originally posted by ringotaku: Mickey- Hmmm. I say let me kill him. Or at least give him a mental breakdown. I'm good at the latter. I enjoy it as well. It's the least he deserves for trying to play in someone else's yard.
Seriously though- she fed the fire by calling him after he showed blatent disrespect for her situation.
She is also showing him that she will accept his disrespect by continuing to consider him a friend "platonic" or not.
The guy is not 100% at fault here.
IMHO he did wrong. So I pick on him. Besides I never said Mickey was a pure innocent. Just first I focus on one person at a time. Especially since I have read both sides of this and think that chewing her out in grand fashion really isn't neccessary at this point.
-------------------- Just when you think you have all the answers, I change the questions. Posts: 76 | From: Dublin, GA | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
I just don't understand why you needed to be on the phone with your boyfriend to do this. Why couldn't you have told 'M' this from the moment he told you that getting engaged 'isn't such a good idea'? That would have saved all this drama and it would have seemed a lot less like you were trying to drag things out for attention.
-------------------- 28 days, 6 hours, 42 minutes, and 12 seconds. That is when the world will end. Posts: 7158 | From: D.C. | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
Ali, exactly. And that is why I am leaning toward Roadie's position on the conclusion of all this.
I might not be a made up drama, but I suspect strongly that the situation was created to make drama.
I am also a little leery about the "committed relationship" copout. If a man will only take no for an answer if you are under someone else's protection, you are under no obligation to spare his feelings.
-------------------- There are people who drive really nice cars who feel that [those] cars won't be as special if other people drive them too. Where I come from, we call those people "selfish self-satisfied gits." -Chloe Posts: 6995 | From: New Mexico | Registered: Oct 2004
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Ali and TGirl - count me in with the same interpretation.
-------------------- "My name is the symbol for my identity and must not be lost." Motto of the Lucy Stone League. Posts: 1815 | From: Pennsylvania | Registered: Jul 2004
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As someone who is used to dealing with lots of this kind of stuff (typical of most females who LARP), a lot of times, it really is difficult to say "please leave me alone". All of this "oh, duh, he wanted to sleep with me, that's why he was saying 'x'" stuff tends to click only after sufficient damage has been done. I attribute that as much to socialization (the need to be a "nice girl") as to a very unpresumtuous attitude (IMO and E, coming from not wanting to appear vain). Sometimes it takes time to realize that you shouldn't be talking to this person anymore. She can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'll willing to bet she first thought "huh, he has really strict marriage standards" and only as an afterthought pieced it together to mean "oh, wait, I see what he's really saying".
Those needs, to always be a nice girl and not be vain and presumtuous, are so ingrained in some of us that we run into conflict between our nature and our brains.
I don't see why the need for courage means that she was seeking drama, or seeking to drag out drama. It's really difficult for someone to go against their nature, no matter how good it is for them, and sometimes people need support to do what they know is right.
-------------------- "I saw weird stuff in that place last night. Weird, strange, sick, twisted, eerie, godless, EVIL stuff... and I want in."- Homer Simpson Posts: 2161 | From: Delaware | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
I've been thinking about the situation...I gotta say, when I was younger I got in situations somewhat like this - at least, I'd be uncomfortable with attention from a guy, and either say that I had a boyfriend (when I did), or not say that I did, and then feel weird that I was still talking to a guy when I was already in a relationship.
Looking back on it now, I realize that I liked the attention from the guys. Sure it was uncomfortable, but it meant that I was considered attractive, and I needed that validation.
Now that I'm older (late twenties), I don't need that kind of validation. I'm not as cute as I was then, but I don't think I've lost it completely...but I'm happy with my fiance, and not focusing as much on my attractiveness. And the situation just doesn't seem to come up as much as it used to.
I can't speak for all women - but for me, "I have a boyfriend" meant "yes, I'm flirting with you - but I can't let it go beyond that. I enjoy the attention you're showing me. I don't know how, or otherwise won't, turn off my attention, but I'll let you know that I don't want this to go any further."
-------------------- If you say you love ice cream, you better be dreaming of an orgy with Ben, Jerry, and one fine-ass chunky monkey.
-- My sister and poet extraordinaire, Joanna Hoffman Posts: 1475 | From: Los Angeles, CA | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Nocturnal Goddess: In the Honey: Sometimes it takes time to realize that you shouldn't be talking to this person anymore. She can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'll willing to bet she first thought "huh, he has really strict marriage standards" and only as an afterthought pieced it together to mean "oh, wait, I see what he's really saying".
Except that Mickey says that the text message that she received before she left the party, before she called him at the not-so-late hour of 11:30 pm indicated to her that M wanted to NFBSK her. She continued to communicate - in fact she initiated communication - with this guy after she clearly, admittedly, knew that he wanted to NFBSK her. So either she wanted to continue the drama, or she was interested in seeing how green the grass was before she decided which side of the fence to fertilize.
ETA: And, pardon my density, but what is a LARP?
ETA2: I quoted the wrong part of NG's post. Duh!
-------------------- "The little local company I buy from has CHEAP shipping and I have met their goats." (snapdragonfly)
"And that's one lost erection I'll never get back! You hear me Dan! I'm owed an erection!" (I'mNotDedalus) Posts: 2658 | From: California | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Roadie, I had the same question, and I'm going to guess that LARP is "Live Action Role Playing". But that's only because I doubt that NG is into either "Landscape Architecture and Regional Planning" or the "US LHC Accelerator Research Program (LARP)" (those were the three things that came up in Google, anyway).
posted
I understand the need to be a "nice girl" and not presumptuous or vain. I've recently gotten over that myself.
The thing was, not being presumptuous or vain, it would have never occured to me to initiate contact with the guy, {ETA} especially in the late evening, and especially if I already had a boyfriend. And especially after a rather forward text message. I probably would have blushed furiously at the text message and sent something back quite equivocal. I would have, probably, instead, I don't know, called my boyfriend because I wouldn't want him to think I was in any way cheating on him or even thinking about it. Or I would have gotten some of my big guy friends to tell him to leave me the NFBSK alone. (which I realize plays into the whole "fair game unless you have a guy to protect you" thing. I have learned a lot since my early 20s.)
But, when I was younger, I was way horrible at flirting (not wanting to be vain and presumptuous) and wouldn't have been in that situation to begin with. So I don't know what I would do.
-------------------- There are people who drive really nice cars who feel that [those] cars won't be as special if other people drive them too. Where I come from, we call those people "selfish self-satisfied gits." -Chloe Posts: 6995 | From: New Mexico | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Nocturnal Goddess: In the Honey: Sometimes it takes time to realize that you shouldn't be talking to this person anymore. She can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'll willing to bet she first thought "huh, he has really strict marriage standards" and only as an afterthought pieced it together to mean "oh, wait, I see what he's really saying".
Except that Mickey says that the text message that she received before she left the party, before she called him at the not-so-late hour of 11:30 pm indicated to her that M wanted to NFBSK her. She continued to communicate - in fact she initiated communication - with this guy after she clearly, admittedly, knew that he wanted to NFBSK her. So either she wanted to continue the drama, or she was interested in seeing how green the grass was before she decided which side of the fence to fertilize.
ETA: And, pardon my density, but what is a LARP?
ETA2: I quoted the wrong part of NG's post. Duh!
See, this is why I mentioned the flirting thing. His first text sounded like just that, flirting. So she dropped the SO thing to subtly remind him, just in case he was flirting. I don't think there was anythoughts of "oh, he wants to ---- me" at that point.
Before I even move on to my other points, I want to know: why, if you feel she made a mistake, are you berating her for it? If she made a mistake, why not be helpful and suggest what she could do differently instead of just repeating "Well, you know it's *your* fault". Hindsight is always 20/20 so, yes, having all the information at once, you are able to notice those things that are raely picked up upon until later, and yet you're critecizing her for, essentially, making decisions without as much knowledge as she had later on when she shared this story.
And I want to ask further, what if she had invited him over? You know, something like him saying "look, I want to appologize, and maybe talk in person". And let's say that he raped her. Would you still put part of the blame on her? Basically, would she you think that she was to blame for poor decisions, or to blame for the event, period?
-------------------- "I saw weird stuff in that place last night. Weird, strange, sick, twisted, eerie, godless, EVIL stuff... and I want in."- Homer Simpson Posts: 2161 | From: Delaware | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Wow! NG, way to put words into Roadie's mouth.
I don't think that Roadie (and excuse me if I am speaking out of turn) or anyone is saying Mickey asked for it. I think all we are saying is that it was made much more drama-laden than it needed to be. "Do you think I'm hot?"
Answer: "No".
"Why?" "You're a creep."
End of discussion.
Perhaps this goes back to something Barbara pointed out when there was a male snopester who posted a similar thing where he thought he was being quite heroic:
This seems to many of us as a brag: "Look at me! I'm so hot! OMG, this guy totally wanted to get into my pants. Oh, by the way, I have a boyfriend and we are soooo committed that we are talking about getting married."
It seemed, well, a little contrived. If Mickey had been raped, I hardly think that she would have been posting about this in quite the same tone.
YMMV.
-------------------- There are people who drive really nice cars who feel that [those] cars won't be as special if other people drive them too. Where I come from, we call those people "selfish self-satisfied gits." -Chloe Posts: 6995 | From: New Mexico | Registered: Oct 2004
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Rhiandmoi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
Well he didn't come over and rape her, so no need to slide down that slope.
I used to just ignore creeps, personally. Even the ones that I worked with. I have quite the icy stare of death, that usually took care of things.
-------------------- I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.
posted
The way I look at it is she told him she had an SO. She called him. So what? Did she say hey baby come on over and NFBSK me till I scream like Harley? If not then it's his own fault for pushing in beyond where he was invited. I just don't get this, "Well you actually talked to him and called him on the phone (at whatever time of day) so it's really your own fault you little dick tease." I realize no one actually said this but this is the attitude that I'm seeing YMMV of course.
P&LL, Syl
-------------------- Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. — Voltaire Posts: 1944 | From: Michigan | Registered: Jun 2001
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Rhiandmoi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
But wasn't he already acting creepy at the beginning of the story?
I think this is a chance for learning. When a guy is bothering you by IM don't give him the chance to bother you over the phone too.
-------------------- I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.
quote:Originally posted by Nocturnal Goddess: In the Honey: See, this is why I mentioned the flirting thing. His first text sounded like just that, flirting. So she dropped the SO thing to subtly remind him, just in case he was flirting. I don't think there was anythoughts of "oh, he wants to ---- me" at that point.
That's great that you don't think there were any thoughts of "he wants to NFBSK me" at the point of his text message. But from Mickey's own posts which you clearly haven't read well, she states "But contextually (in terms of body language and the double entendres he was using in conversation), it was obvious that he wants to sleep with me." She couldn't see body language after the text - she'd already walked away. Conversations after that text, according to her, were via text and phone until he "happened" to show up at her work while she "happened" to be on the phone with her SO.
Here's another one you seem to be ignoring:"ETA: besides, I would have thought his comment of "so u dont think im hot?" would have been hint enough that he wants to sleep with me." She again clearly states that she knew from the first text message what his intent was.
quote:Before I even move on to my other points, I want to know: why, if you feel she made a mistake, are you berating her for it? If she made a mistake, why not be helpful and suggest what she could do differently instead of just repeating "Well, you know it's *your* fault". Hindsight is always 20/20 so, yes, having all the information at once, you are able to notice those things that are raely picked up upon until later, and yet you're critecizing her for, essentially, making decisions without as much knowledge as she had later on when she shared this story.
I, and others, offered her suggestions about how to go forward. She *does* (IMO) have responsibility for what some of what had happened up until that point, and what happened after. She gave him her number, she didn't stop the conversation when he got too personal. And I'm not repeating anything to her - I'm responding to others. I think I've figured out that it does little good to interrupt her fantasies.
quote:And I want to ask further, what if she had invited him over? You know, something like him saying "look, I want to appologize, and maybe talk in person". And let's say that he raped her. Would you still put part of the blame on her? Basically, would she you think that she was to blame for poor decisions, or to blame for the event, period?
She didn't, and I'm not even going to dignify that one with a response. This is not about rape, and you know it NG. I am a volunteer rape crisis counselor and prevention educator. I *teach* people how to avoid potential risks - but rape is never the victims fault, as much as you are trying to twist my words to mean that.
-------------------- "The little local company I buy from has CHEAP shipping and I have met their goats." (snapdragonfly)
"And that's one lost erection I'll never get back! You hear me Dan! I'm owed an erection!" (I'mNotDedalus) Posts: 2658 | From: California | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mickey is a waffle queen: Why couldn't he pursue one of the girls that spreads like cream cheese?
Do you have any, er, phone numbers and names? For purely investigative purposes, of course...
-------------------- "The system would also let you send your picture and contact details to a rough trade gay contact mailing list saying you like to be surprised with power tools in a non-consensual role play scenario – but that doesn’t mean you SHOULD do it.!" Posts: 298 | From: Monterrey, Mexico | Registered: May 2005
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quote: She didn't, and I'm not even going to dignify that one with a response. This is not about rape, and you know it NG. I am a volunteer rape crisis counselor and prevention educator. I *teach* people how to avoid potential risks - but rape is never the victims fault, as much as you are trying to twist my words to mean that.
I'm not saying that you are, not by any means, and I'm really sorry it ended-up sounding that way. What I am asking is, at what point do his actions magically become unacceptable and his own problem? Just how much blame do you put on someone for not dealing with a situation in an appropriate manner (providing that there is no past history of contiunly running into the same problem) [edit] out of ignorance of the best way to go about solving the problem?
-------------------- "I saw weird stuff in that place last night. Weird, strange, sick, twisted, eerie, godless, EVIL stuff... and I want in."- Homer Simpson Posts: 2161 | From: Delaware | Registered: Aug 2005
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Rhiandmoi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
His behavior is unacceptable and his own problem, but she gave him a venue in which to behave badly. If she didn't do that, his bad behavior would have been someone else's headache.
-------------------- I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.
quote:Originally posted by Nocturnal Goddess: In the Honey: I'm not saying that you are, not by any means, and I'm really sorry it ended-up sounding that way.
Okay. Thank you.
quote: What I am asking is, at what point do his actions magically become unacceptable and his own problem? Just how much blame do you put on someone for not dealing with a situation in an appropriate manner (providing that there is no past history of contiunly running into the same problem) [edit] out of ignorance of the best way to go about solving the problem?
As Rhiamondi says, his actions were unacceptable and his own problem - but she did provide him with a venue. And the ignorance can be solved with maturity and education, as well as by asking people, as she did, "What should I do?" and then *gasp* following that advice. But I still contend that the story-book ending is unbelievable. YMMV.
-------------------- "The little local company I buy from has CHEAP shipping and I have met their goats." (snapdragonfly)
"And that's one lost erection I'll never get back! You hear me Dan! I'm owed an erection!" (I'mNotDedalus) Posts: 2658 | From: California | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Sylvanz: The way I look at it is she told him she had an SO. She called him. So what? Did she say hey baby come on over and NFBSK me till I scream like Harley? If not then it's his own fault for pushing in beyond where he was invited. I just don't get this, "Well you actually talked to him and called him on the phone (at whatever time of day) so it's really your own fault you little dick tease." I realize no one actually said this but this is the attitude that I'm seeing YMMV of course.
P&LL, Syl
I don't get that at all. First of all, nobody is saying she's a dick-tease. Nobody is saying she deserves to get raped. (I have no idea where the hell that idea came from...and I don't mean that you, Sylvanz, said it. I'm just still shocked that was even brought up.)
What people are saying is that Mickey needs to accept some personal responsibility for things here. She doesn't have to accept responsibilities for the stupid things that the guy did. He was a creep. He stepped beyond some boundaries as far as making comments about her impending engagement. He was likely trying to convince her to cheat. So that does make him a dick.
However, Mickey had every opportunity to tell this guy to NFBSK off. She had every opportunity to tell him politely that she wasn't interested. She had every opportunity to do many things in between those two extremes. Yet she chose to continue contact with him, saying nothing except to drop hints about her SO and mention they were talking about engagement. She never once even told him to leave her alone.
Even when she was on the phone with her SO she didn't tell this guy to leave her alone. That seems more than a little odd to me. And it seems to me, and apparently several other people here, as if she wanted attention from both guys. Maybe she wanted to make her SO jealous. Maybe she wanted to see how serious he was about her. Maybe she just wanted to be mean to the other guy for being such a creep. Who knows.
But Mickey isn't entirely sweet and innocent in this scenario.
-------------------- 28 days, 6 hours, 42 minutes, and 12 seconds. That is when the world will end. Posts: 7158 | From: D.C. | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
No, I agree Ali Mickey isn't completely sweet and innocent. I believe she even admitted to liking the attention a bit. What I was referring to though was that several people here implied that, "You led him on and gave him "mixed signals" so it's your fault. 'Cause the poor fella' couldn't be expected to think a female would want to be friends with him even when she's telling him *more than once* she has a serious SO." Maybe I'm channeling Ryda here, and I know Mickey has a rep for LAM, but I don't see why this guy gets to act like that and have it all but ignored (I know some have addressed his behavior but most attention has been on Mickey "leading him on") and Mickey gets lectures and finger wagging on not giving "mixed signals." I'm sorry maybe it's my age, but "I have a serious boyfriend" means: "You're a nice guy I don't mind talking to you but that's as far as it goes." If he pushes beyond that he's the one in the wrong.
Whether the end was "real" or not I don't know. I called someone's veracity into question here once much less directly and for much better reasons and I got a lecture for it. This guy was a jerk he thought that he could get her to cheat and it didn't work. She was interested in friends of the same religious/philosophical background. Neither one of them were getting what they wanted so it all ended ok. I just think that many here are excusing his behavior and blaming her. YMMV of course.
P&LL, Syl
-------------------- Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. — Voltaire Posts: 1944 | From: Michigan | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
I didn't think anyone was necessarily excusing his behavior. But he's not the one with an SO. Mickey is. It's up to her to tell him to go away. It is not up to him.
What if he turned out to be her dream man? What if he was her soulmate?
Imagine for a moment that instead of being someone Mickey wasn't interested in, he was perfect for her. Imagine that instead of exchanging a few IMs and weird phone calls, that Mickey wanted to get to know him better and they spent hours talking through the night. Imagine it all ended with her leaving her current SO and ending up with this guy and living happily ever after.
We'd all see that story as "awww how sweet...I guess you were meant to be". (well, ok, probably not all of us. I wouldn't. But I'd be willing to bet that a lot of people would.)
Then nobody would be criticizing him. They'd be saying how sweet he was for not giving up on her just because she had an SO.
I still think he sounds like a creep. I still would if the 'dream scenario' I just posted really happened. But I think many would be more forgiving of him.
I guess my point here is that he is not the one who is already committed. Mickey is and it is up to her to tell this guy she wasn't interested. She didn't do that. Still hasn't. All she's said is "I have a boyfriend."
Big deal. Plenty of people have boyfriends and girlfriends and cheat. How was this guy to know Mickey wasn't one of them?
Again, please don't think I'm saying he's a good guy. He isn't. He's a tool. But I think Mickey's reaction to the whole situation was a bit odd and not very mature.
For the record, I don't call into question the veracity of the story. I think it really did happen. That's why I have issues with it.
-------------------- 28 days, 6 hours, 42 minutes, and 12 seconds. That is when the world will end. Posts: 7158 | From: D.C. | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Sylvanz: No, I agree Ali Mickey isn't completely sweet and innocent. I believe she even admitted to liking the attention a bit. What I was referring to though was that several people here implied that, "You led him on and gave him "mixed signals" so it's your fault. 'Cause the poor fella' couldn't be expected to think a female would want to be friends with him even when she's telling him *more than once* she has a serious SO." Maybe I'm channeling Ryda here, and I know Mickey has a rep for LAM, but I don't see why this guy gets to act like that and have it all but ignored (I know some have addressed his behavior but most attention has been on Mickey "leading him on") and Mickey gets lectures and finger wagging on not giving "mixed signals."
I disagree, most of the attention has been on the unneccessary drama that was created around the incident. As Ali said, she had several chances to shut him down. She didn't.
I have many male friends. I even flirt mildly with some of them. But the boundaries are very clear.
I realize this might be a little more clear to me now that it was when I was in my early 20s.
So let me repeat again: yes, the guy was a creep. He is responsible for being a creep.
-------------------- There are people who drive really nice cars who feel that [those] cars won't be as special if other people drive them too. Where I come from, we call those people "selfish self-satisfied gits." -Chloe Posts: 6995 | From: New Mexico | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Mickey is a waffle queen: Why couldn't he pursue one of the girls that spreads like cream cheese?
He probably thought he was ...
-------------------- Where I come from we believe all sorts of things that aren't true. We call it History. Posts: 506 | From: Massachusetts | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
I think both parties acted pretty stupid and childish here.
I'm not even in a relationship, and have never been in one serious to the point of engagement talk, but if the first day I started talking to a new person of any gender they bashed the SO they'd not met and tried to get me to break off a very big decision I wouldn't talk to them at all. Especially if that person was coming on to me.
AFA the drama thing, Mickey I must say that the reason your truthfulness is being questioned here is because it seems like you have posted many times about situations that just so happen to come out sitcom perfect in the end (it seems that as soon as you're challenged you include more details as well, which comes across as covering your ass). Perhaps you're lucky and that does happen, perhaps you embellish on the board the way many people do in their heads after such a thing happens and perhaps you are outright making s**t up. I'm not going to try to make a guess because A) I don't know you and B) I honestly couldn't care less.
If you are telling the truth I realize the kind of response you get frequently must be annoying, but understand that when you constantly post similar scenarios and pictures of yourself and brag* and LAM openly and in a veiled manner, especially with such a large group of people it's going to grate on the nerves of some. I'm not trying to tell you to stop posting or anything (not that I think I'm in the position for you to listen to me even if I did) I'm just saying that perhaps every detail doesn't require a new thread.
[* I recall an old "letters you wish you could send" post that was adressed to your body along the lines of "you're so petite, your feet are so small, your chest is so big" etc, with the final line being "at least you look good in everything I put on you!" I'm willing to bet money I wasn't the only person to roll my eyes and make a "gag me" gesture after reading that]
Also, in other posts I've witnessed you seeming to ask the permission of other snopesters regarding things you should be able to take care of yourself. Examples in this thread:
quote:Can I kick him in the nuts? Please?
quote:I will be a "not-so-nice girl" (not a bitch, though), and simply say that I'm in a committed relationship, that's that, and I'm interested in a purely platonic relationship with M.
Yea or nea? (And amendments to what I will say are appreciated, as he told me he'd call me later today)
I don't know if you actually need the advice/permission of people who are basically strangers to you or if it's just your writing style, but it does concern me a little. Hopefully you're just using us as a sounding board but if decisions are hard to make without the advice of other snopesters I'm a bit concerned.
Please understand that I'm not trying to bash you here, I'm honestly trying to explain why it seems to me that you've gotten this type of response so much. I apologize if it comes off as bitchy, but I think this kind of thing requires a bit of bluntness.
ETA: second part of quote, which just happened to be the relevant part. D'oh!
-------------------- Me: "He's 19? Uh oh, I bought him a beer." A: "You contributed to the deliquency of a minor in drag!" "Sweet spell check: keeping drunks off the radar since 1995."- IND GodRe-AnimateGreenPorkBush Posts: 3986 | From: Illinois, jealous? | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Thank you Candy. You said some of the things I was thinking but did not want to post as I am of an age to be both of your mothers :
-------------------- Focus On The Family- An opinion group who think more about Gay Sex than gay people do- Rick Mercer Posts: 590 | From: Rawdon, Quebec | Registered: Nov 2005
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