posted
I think the difference is that harming women is not a property intrinsic to adult pornography, while harming children is intrinsic to child pornography.
-------------------- Fools! You've over-estimated me! Posts: 3745 | From: New York City | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
You can make porn without injuring adults. So porn producers should do just that. Consumers shouldn't buy porn that features people being deliberately injured (as in features them in acts they didn't consent to.) You can't make "real" child pornography without injuring a child. So no one should make child pornography and/or buy it. Overly simplistic but that's the dilemna in a nutshell.
Additionally, there is the issue of informed consent. Again, you can make adult porn with nothing but well informed consenting adults. The same cannot be said for child pornography.
-------------------- There is no interpersonal problem so big that it can't be solved with a suitably large amount of high explosives. ~ Bufungla Posts: 3562 | From: South Texas | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Because it is possibe to produce adult pornography with the star's consent. It is impossible to create child pornography with the star's consent. Even if there are cases of people being forced into porn, we just need to punish those people, and we will be left with perfectly good porn that is produced with the star's consent. Children cannot give consent, so, you cannot have child porn with the child's consent.
Like if you draw a venn diagram with a big circle A labeled "Produced with the actor's consent", and then you have another circle B labeled "Adult pornography" that intersects A, and you have a third circle C labeled "Child pornography" that lies outside A. I would keep A-intersection-B, and throw out B-A and C.
If A-intersection-C was non-zero, I wouldn't be against it. It does make me sick, but there is plenty of adult porn that makes me sick too.
-------------------- Nico Sasha In between my father's fields;And the citadels of the rule; Lies a no-man's land which I must cross; To find my stolen jewel. Posts: 4912 | From: VA | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
ETA: I know he wasn't making porn, Mama Duck; it's only a joke.
-------------------- The salty fragrance of L’EauD’I’mNotDedalus - made entirely of and entirely for sea turtles. Posts: 1983 | From: Chicagoland, IL | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
He wasn't making porn at the time. He was consuming it.
ETA: I know. Ya leave out one smilie. There that should fix things
-------------------- There is no interpersonal problem so big that it can't be solved with a suitably large amount of high explosives. ~ Bufungla Posts: 3562 | From: South Texas | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think part of the problem in the states is that sex is still considered a very taboo, "dirty" subject. I know a lot of people with fetishes: BDSM, ABDL, sploshing (food fetish), and one particular pervert who can't figure out that at 22 he shouldn't be chasing 15 year olds anymore. The only one of these I consider a problem is the 22 year old. I, myself, am a female and a dominant. In the world of BDSM, you find a lot more male submissives than female. I've always been of the firm belief as long as everyone involved is : above the age of consent, consenting, and human, everything is good, no matter what floats your boat.
Posts: 27 | From: Anaheim, CA | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Troodon: Victim of what? If a person decides that they don't like you anymore, and you failed to plan for that possibility, you are a victim? Do you propose that people stay in relationships that they are no longer interested in to avoid "victimizing" people like you?
Wait, "people like me"!?! When did I ever say this applied to me? PLease don't assume that when I refer to women getting thrown over, that I include myself in that statement.
-------------------- "Nobody ever looks like McCarthy, sir. That's how they get in the door in the first place" Toby on The West Wing Posts: 816 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Ryda Wong: Mad Jay: I'm gonna suggest that you go back and read the classics of Western lit from the 18th and 19th centuries (hell, you can go back farther than that if you desire). A good start would be Rousseau's Emile, although Paradise Lost might work as well.
19th century fiction. That's your "source"? My source is actual research
quote: Masters, Johnson & Kolodny (1985, p.344) say having kinky sexual fantasies does not necessarily mean you want to actually engage in the same sexual acts (e.g. no one wants to be raped). Of course, some daydreams are about actions one would like to experience, some are not. The common sexual fantasies of men and women are quite similar, except women may imagine being in more romantic situations (and the personal-emotional aspects of the man) while men focus on body parts. Also, men are more prone to imagine themselves doing something to the woman (dominating), while women imagine being done to (submitting).
Now, we can discuss the reasons why people have sexual fantasies all day, but I will repeat my original point again:- Sexual fantasies are an expression of the issues in our society and not the cause of it.
Besides that, you know what? NFBSK the sources. You do not have the right to dictate what goes on in my head. I could be working towards World Peace, or thinking about osh-oshing the goat. You simply cannot control what goes on in my mind. You neither have the capability nor the moral right. You can, however, use the law to limit my actions so that I don't hurt you, and we already have a system that works reasonably well.
If you propose that every man should be treated so that every domination fantasy is erased from his head, then why don't we turn it around and say that every woman should be treated so that she would have nothing but submissive fantasies. I know, I know. *That* would be ridiculous.
quote:Originally posted by Phil'sGirl, hoping for sun: Of course you don't see it as a bad thing, you don't have to worry about being thrown over for a trophy wife.
Of course, if you would have worried about actually reading and understanding the thread, you wouldn't have brought up this point. I have never advocated anyone using their fantasies as an excuse for their immorality.
Perhaps we both need reading instruction, I said you didn't have to worry, I never said you advocated it. Totally different verb, nest-ce pas?
-------------------- "Nobody ever looks like McCarthy, sir. That's how they get in the door in the first place" Toby on The West Wing Posts: 816 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Phil'sGirl, hoping for sun:
quote:Originally posted by Troodon: Victim of what? If a person decides that they don't like you anymore, and you failed to plan for that possibility, you are a victim? Do you propose that people stay in relationships that they are no longer interested in to avoid "victimizing" people like you?
Wait, "people like me"!?! When did I ever say this applied to me? PLease don't assume that when I refer to women getting thrown over, that I include myself in that statement.
When I say "people like you", I mean "people who consider their partner leaving them an act that makes them a victim". Obviously I would not need to worry about ending a relationship with someone who, unlike you, does not think that that action on my part victimizes them.
-------------------- Fools! You've over-estimated me! Posts: 3745 | From: New York City | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Just harking back to the pain thing [I know, I know, but I just can't keep up with this conversation, sometimes ]
The Mr and I were discussing this and I came to an interesting [for me, anyway] conclusion:
TMI WARNING in case anyone was actually planning to look away
Because of problems I have with my hips and related gynae stuff, it's very very rare for me to orgasm without suffering intense cramping pain*, which has lingering effects for some days afterwards. This goes far beyond the slightly achy pleasant reminder of the night before - sometimes I've been left unable to walk properly [fodder for a lot of jokes. heard it. yep, heard that one, too ]
So, we were discussing the effect this has had on our sex lives. Basically, it's been six or eight years since mutual hibbity-dibbety has been lightly entered into, and these days, it's not without a lot of forethought [what am I doing this week? Nah, the kid's got sportsday on Tuesday, so...]
In spite of how closely passion and pain have become linked for me, and how, if he chooses to cause me pleasure he is by default certain to cause me equal or greater pain - you'd think that it might become something we grew to be comfortable with.
A couple of days of discussion, and we are each equally vehement - nope. Causing pain for your pleasure, or even for their pleasure...just isn't something we want to do. Given the option, we wouldn't. To the extent that we are spending chunks of cash, time and effort to not be able to.
YMMV, eh?
[* I'm being treated for it now that a cause has been isolated]
-------------------- Windows cannot open this file. To open this file correctly, defenestrate, then try running the file again... Posts: 5383 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Llewtrah: [QUOTE]A great deal is in our natures and is determined by evolution. You may find that fact unpalatable, but it won't go away, nor is it an excuse. You may consider research biased, but you give the impression that the only valid view in all of this is your own in which case no amount of research will satisfy you.
It ain't just me. Start with texts by Gould and Fox-Keller. We simply can't prove what is nature and what is nurture
Come out of your bunker and start reading some genetics and neuroscience texts e.g. Matt Ridley, Steve Jones, Robet Winston et al. You appear to be unaware of the huge amount of research and data outside of your reading list.
quote: As Edna Einsiedel points out (1986, p. 60):
Current evidence suggests a high correlation between deviant fantasies and deviant behaviors....Some treatment methods are also predicated on the link between fantasies and behavior by attempting to alter fantasy patterns in order to change the deviant behaviors (1986, p. 60).
Essentially you are saying that deviant fantasies cause deviant behaviour. But this says nothing of the sort. It could just as easily say that people with devian behaviours have deviant fantasies - which sounds obvious.
Posts: 9 | From: London, UK | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Bettie Page Turner: I think the title of this thread needs to be changed to How bad does Ryda hurt?
I mean, nothing personal to Ryda, as I don't know her from Eve, but isn't it obvious that viewpoints coming from such a skewed perspective should be taken as such...skewed viewpoints? She seems to have had an inordinate number of bad experiences, and (self-admitted) severe psychological problems stemming from them. I just wonder about somebody who seems to really enjoy waving personal, painful facts like a banner in a public forum.
My experiences were brought up in direct response to questions asked of me. I'm not ashamed by them. I see no reason to cover them over.
Fine. If all of you want to dismiss the reality that sexual violence and sexualized violence is a problem in our culture, go ahead. If you want to dismiss that there are vast and unresolved power imbalances built into our culture that have yet to be addressed, go ahead. If you want to believe that our internal lives have nothing to do with our outside perspectives and behavior, go ahead. If you want to believe that our cultural conscieness does not inform our behavior as a culture, go ahead.
With these attitudes, sexual violence and gender-based inequalities will continue unabaited.
I guess I'm still a fan of slaughtering all the men except a few sperm carriers until the combining of 2 Ova is perfected. Perfect solution and everyone is equal!
(At least until all the dynamic, driven, and ambitious female take charge and begin to fight it out at the top - start their armies up and begin to duke it out like, well, men) All I can say is my wife is WAY more ambitious, competitive and assertive than I am - both in AND out of the bedroom.
Posts: 9 | From: London, UK | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by GenYus: So your parents and fiancee thought that rape was okay. And from three people you extrapolate that all of society thinks it was okay? I thought I remembered El Camino getting raked over the coals because he extrapolated from one person to all women. I guess somewhere between one and three is the magic number where it is okay to extrapolate to large numbers of people.
Once again, GenYus, the above personal experiences are in direct response to questions asked of me. They have very little to do with why I state that rape is enshrined in our culture.
For example, it was just in the last few years that date rape and domestic rape were even considered rape. Prior to 1976, a husband could be charged with raping his wife, due to a section in the rape laws called the Marital Rape Exemption.
30 years ago, certain types of rape were legal. Prior to 1972, it was OK to bring a defendent's sexual history and dress/deportment into a rape trial. this basically meant that if a woman had sex with many men, or the wrong kind of sex, or the wrong kind of clothes, the rape charge was often dismissed. So this type of rape was understandable as well.
So, yeah. Rape is enshrined in our culture. Until recently, it was protected. Plenty of people still believe that rape in those cases, and others, is understandable, and the woman is to blame. This is easily ascertained by casual conversation, but you could also use this:
more than a quarter (26%) of those asked said that they thought a women was partially or totally responsible for being raped if she was wearing sexy or revealing clothing, and more than one in five (22%) held the same view if a woman had had many sexual partners.
Around one in 12 people (8%) believed that a woman was totally responsible for being raped if she’d had many sexual partners.
Similarly, more than a quarter of people (30%) said that a woman was partially or totally responsible for being raped if she was drunk, and more than a third (37%) held the same view if the woman had failed to clearly say “no” to the man.
Hmm... I wonder if this survey was ONLY asked of men, or included women. I betcha it was deliberately selected to be statistically even. So basically, (men are evil men are evil) ALMOST EVERY SINGLE MAN on this survey must have picked 'yes' on the "I rape drunk women, and it's OK" box of the survey - and by extension, none of the women.
So what does it mean if BOTH parties are drunk, and really regret it later? Have BOTH parties been raped? How about if only the MAN is drunk, but didn't want to have sex? Has HE been raped?
What if both parties wanted to at the time, and both are drunk but change their mind later?
This leads to a reducto ad absurdum really, doesn't it.
Men are evil. Kill the men.
Women are perfect goddesses with nary an aggressive, assertive or domineering bone in their bodies. Ask my wife, she'l tell you.
Posts: 9 | From: London, UK | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
The following is not directed at anyone in particular, but is my reaction from reading the rest of this thread:
I'm really tired of hearing what I am prone to do or think about from people who aren't me. Some men are rapists. The vast vast vast vast VAST majority are not and are repulsed by it happening IN REAL LIFE. Lots of people love watching people kick the living shit out of each other on TV and in movies. But most of those people are not okay with real-life shit-kickings. Lots of people love watching the drama and significant-other swapping and cheating on some soap operas, but that doesn't mean they condone cheating in real life. Lots of people laugh at racist jokes, but they are appalled by actual racism and discrimination by people who really feel that way...
And lots of people who have rape fantasies DO NOT ACTUALLY WANT TO DO IT IN REAL LIFE...whether it were legal or not. TV/Movies/Videos/Pictures correspond to real life is not the norm. The people with this tendency to carry over fiction into reality are not normal. They have a problem, and that doesn't correspond to everyone or most people in society.
and...
quote: I guess I'm still a fan of slaughtering all the men except a few sperm carriers until the combining of 2 Ova is perfected. Perfect solution and everyone is equal!
Ygarl, this was probably made in jest, but I could turn around and say that we should just slaughter all of the women and figure out how to have 2 men reproduce.
-------------------- "For me, religion is like a rhinoceros: I don't have one, and I'd really prefer not to be trampled by yours. But it is impressive, and even beautiful, and, to be honest, the world would be slightly worse off if there weren't any." -Silas Sparkhammer Posts: 3239 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Phil'sGirl, hoping for sun:
quote:Originally posted by Phil'sGirl, hoping for sun: Of course you don't see it as a bad thing, you don't have to worry about being thrown over for a trophy wife.
Of course, if you would have worried about actually reading and understanding the thread, you wouldn't have brought up this point. I have never advocated anyone using their fantasies as an excuse for their immorality.
Perhaps we both need reading instruction, I said you didn't have to worry, I never said you advocated it. Totally different verb, nest-ce pas? [/QB][/QUOTE]
How do you know that I don't have to be worried about being thrown over for a trophy husband? Totally presumptious of you, n'est ce pas?
-------------------- Nico Sasha In between my father's fields;And the citadels of the rule; Lies a no-man's land which I must cross; To find my stolen jewel. Posts: 4912 | From: VA | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Phil'sGirl, hoping for sun:
quote:Originally posted by Troodon: Victim of what? If a person decides that they don't like you anymore, and you failed to plan for that possibility, you are a victim? Do you propose that people stay in relationships that they are no longer interested in to avoid "victimizing" people like you?
Wait, "people like me"!?! When did I ever say this applied to me? PLease don't assume that when I refer to women getting thrown over, that I include myself in that statement.
When I say "people like you", I mean "people who consider their partner leaving them an act that makes them a victim". Obviously I would not need to worry about ending a relationship with someone who, unlike you, does not think that that action on my part victimizes them.
Don't worry about me. If you're the kind of man that would blame the woman for your decision to leave, then you will never be the kind of man I would go out with.
-------------------- "Nobody ever looks like McCarthy, sir. That's how they get in the door in the first place" Toby on The West Wing Posts: 816 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I don't see the need for blame at all - if a person is no longer happy in a relationship, he or she can choose to leave, and that's not wrong. There's no need to blame anyone.
Of course, often other blameworthy things (such as lying) are associated with ending a relationship, but ending the relationship is not itself blameworthy.
-------------------- Fools! You've over-estimated me! Posts: 3745 | From: New York City | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I know he wasn't making porn, Mama Duck; it's only a joke.![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
]
