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Author Topic: Another "Is it cheating?" thread: BDSM
Echinodermata Q. Taft
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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OK, I bet I already know how most people are going to be answering this, but what the heck. [Smile]

Many, if not most, professional Dominatrixes (Dominatrices? I'll just say "Dommes") are pretty explicit that they don't actually engage in sexual acts with their clients -- therefore avoiding (or at least attempting to avoid) being charged for prostitution. Assuming you accept this as true, is engaging in non-sexual bondage or S&M cheating?

Say, for example, a guy is married to a woman with whom he has a satisfying, but vanilla, sex life, and who has no interest in anything kinky, so once in a while he sees another woman (pro or not) who ties him up and gives him a good spanking, or something. No nudity, and no one's naughty bits are touched. Is that cheating? Or is it something more like going to get a therapeutic massage? Does the sex of the dominant partner (or massage-giver) matter? What if there was some handling of the naughty bits, but not the type that led to orgasm?

For me (and as usual, for me, it's hypothetical, since I'm not -- *sigh* -- in any kind of relationship, and haven't been for about 20 NFBSKing years), as usual, it would have more to do with deception and intent than the specifics of the behavior. If the guy (or gal, if it happened to work out that way) is hiding the encounters from his partners, it's a form of cheating. If on the other hand, his (or her) partner is OK with it -- "If you need a spanking once in a while, well, I'm not into that, so go ahead -- but keep it to the spanking" -- then I have no problem. For me, it's all a matter of trust, openness, and keeping one's promises. (Heck, I know a guy who went to a concert with a woman other than his wife, without telling her -- and even though I know everyone involved well enough to be very sure no hanky-panky went on, I still consider it fairly reprehensible behavior.)

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Giselle
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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No nudity and no sex I consider it like a massage. For a lot of people BDSM is about power and giving it up so sex isn't even part of the equation. If my husband wants a beating though I'll gladly give it to him. [lol]

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Silver
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I have to agree with you. The couple should be open with each other. When, in one of my previous relationships, I found out that the guy was looking at porn, I felt betrayed and hurt. Oddly, I didn't mind if he told me he was looking at porn, or if he looked at it with me . . . but when he snuck around behind my back, hiding it for months, and I only found out because I walked in on him, THAT hurt. It was like he didn't trust me, didn't believe our relationship was strong enough to confide in me. Maybe I'm idealistic, but I believe that you shouldn't decieve your significant other, especially about things like going out with other people of the opposite sex (or same sex, if gay), watching porn, or, yes, seeing a Dominatirix.
I hope that I'm not wrong in believing my husband and I have the open, honest relationship that I've always longed for.

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Noemi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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If the person is not telling their partner(s) then it's cheating. If everyone knows about it and is OK with it, then it isn't.

Noemi "stock answer"

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Giselle
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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I should have mentioned that as well. I echo what Noemi said.

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Ralphie, get off the stage sweetheart.

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Midgard_Dragon
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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It all depends on what the partner feels is cheating. Taking that one step farther, I think it's a good idea for a couple to sit down and discuss what they consider cheating and not cheating.

I, personally, feel having any relationship that is "kept secret" from your partner is "cheating", even if nothing sexual happens. Cheating or not cheating is all about boundaries, and those boundaries have to be set by each individual couple.

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1958Fury
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Any cheating in any relationship is defined by what both partners feel is cheating. Is masturbation cheating? Is online sex cheating? Etc, etc. When in doubt, work these things out with your SO before you do them.

Still, some guys do seem to be more "grossed out" by the thought of their wife coming into contact with another man's penis. To them, it makes their wife/girlfriend seem "unclean" in a way that contact with another woman would not.

Somehow it reminds me of the "37 dicks" rant in Clerks.

Edit: Dang it, I'm getting all these "is it cheating?" threads confused. I meant to post this after the "Girl-on-Girl" thread. But it still applies.

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Friends of Alfred
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Does anybody on the board have any real life experience with this sort of thing? The closest I can offer is an old girlfriend who occasionaly liked to take control. I was more than happy to let her, because there was still loads of sex, and the roleplay was fun anyway (hey - it's fun to experiment!)

But, surely its still a sexual encounter, even if there is no actual intercourse? I mean, if a guy is seeing somebody "just" to get a spanking, chances or he is getting a sexual thrill from it?

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STF
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Noemi:
If the person is not telling their partner(s) then it's cheating. If everyone knows about it and is OK with it, then it isn't.

Noemi "stock answer"

I have to agree with this. As Midgard_Dragon also says it's not about what we all think counts as cheating, but what the partners in that relationship count as cheating.

I will also say that if someone told me their spouse was upset with them for doing this and called it cheating I'd probably side with their spouse. It doesn't seem terribly appropriate to me and my default position would probably be that it is cheating unless there was some sort of agreement between the couple from the beginning.

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BeachLife
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by STF:
quote:
Originally posted by Noemi:
If the person is not telling their partner(s) then it's cheating. If everyone knows about it and is OK with it, then it isn't.

Noemi "stock answer"

I have to agree with this. As Midgard_Dragon also says it's not about what we all think counts as cheating, but what the partners in that relationship count as cheating.

I will also say that if someone told me their spouse was upset with them for doing this and called it cheating I'd probably side with their spouse. It doesn't seem terribly appropriate to me and my default position would probably be that it is cheating unless there was some sort of agreement between the couple from the beginning.

Yep, I'll add a me-three into that. I think the litmus test for cheating is very simple, 'ask your partner'. If you think they will get mad just because you asked, you already have your answer.

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Joe Bentley
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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Most of the responses here have hit it head on as far as I'm concerned.

I think there is a universal answer for any "Is -insert activity here- cheating?" question.

If you feel the need to hide it from you partner, its cheating. If your partner is honestly okay with whatever you're doing, its not.

Cheating isn't about an act, its about a breach of trust. A swinging couple in an open relation having sex with other people isn't cheating in my opinion.

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Mama Duck
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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Is it a sign of the coming apocalypse when Noemi, STF, Beachlife, and Joe Bentley agree on something? Is it worse if they're right? If you're hiding it or feel the need to hide it, it's cheating. If everyone's ok with it, it's not.

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BeachLife
The Bills of St. Mary's


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Holy crap, I think I just saw four horsemen gallop by my window...

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STF
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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Four Kitties
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Where did I put that vial of holy water?

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Mad Jay
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Joe Bentley:
Most of the responses here have hit it head on as far as I'm concerned.

I think there is a universal answer for any "Is -insert activity here- cheating?" question.

If you feel the need to hide it from you partner, its cheating. If your partner is honestly okay with whatever you're doing, its not.

Hmm.. so if I smoke without my wife's knowledge, is that cheating?

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Nico Sasha
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Joe Bentley
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Mad Jay:
Hmm.. so if I smoke without my wife's knowledge, is that cheating?

Well no but its in the same vein. It's dishonesty, which is really what cheating is about.

Cheating isn't about what you do with another person, its about what you do that you promised your partner you wouldn't.

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Mad Jay
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Joe Bentley:
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Jay:
Hmm.. so if I smoke without my wife's knowledge, is that cheating?

Well no but its in the same vein. It's dishonesty, which is really what cheating is about.

Cheating isn't about what you do with another person, its about what you do that you promised your partner you wouldn't.

I agree with you that smoking without your partner's knowledge would be dishonest, but the level of dishonesty is not in the same grade as getting spanked without your partner's knowledge.

Personally, I feel that engaging in any activity that the person considers sexual without their partner's knowledge is cheating. So, according to me, it is cheating if the spankee is getting spanked without his partner's knowledge and the spankee considers the spanking as a sexual activity. There has to be a sexual component to the activity for that activity to be considered as cheating.

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Nico Sasha
In between my father's fields;And the citadels of the rule; Lies a no-man's land which I must cross; To find my stolen jewel.

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Oualawouzou
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by Mad Jay:
There has to be a sexual component to the activity for that activity to be considered as cheating.

Not necessarily. Some (most?) people would consider a platonic but deeply emotionnal secret relation with a third party to be cheating.

ETA: Wait, did this "that" refer to the specific spanking situation, or to "any situation" as in the first sentence of the last paragraph?

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Nonny Mouse, on Santa's laptop
Once in Royal Circuit City


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quote:
Originally posted by Oualawouzou:
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Jay:
There has to be a sexual component to the activity for that activity to be considered as cheating.

Not necessarily. Some (most?) people would consider a platonic but deeply emotionnal secret relation with a third party to be cheating.
Just because there's no actual physical hanky-panky going on does not mean the relationship is not sexual. 90% of sex is mental. If you're pursuing a relationship based on mutual attraction, the sexual element is there.

And BTW, if you also decieve the outside person about your existing relationship, you're cheating on both of them.

Nonny

ETA: a rather significant "not".

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Mad Jay
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Oualawouzou:
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Jay:
There has to be a sexual component to the activity for that activity to be considered as cheating.

Not necessarily. Some (most?) people would consider a platonic but deeply emotionnal secret relation with a third party to be cheating.

ETA: Wait, did this "that" refer to the specific spanking situation, or to "any situation" as in the first sentence of the last paragraph?

I meant any activity that the participant considers to be sexual is a sexual activity. Any sexual activity hidden from a person's significant partner is cheating.

I wouldn't consider a deeply emotional, platonic, secret relationship to be eligible for cheating. However, I would consider my wife hiding such a relationship from me as extremely dishonest, even more than certain forms of cheating.

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Nico Sasha
In between my father's fields;And the citadels of the rule; Lies a no-man's land which I must cross; To find my stolen jewel.

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Noemi
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quote:
Originally posted by Mama Duck:
Is it a sign of the coming apocalypse when Noemi, STF, Beachlife, and Joe Bentley agree on something? Is it worse if they're right?

Damn I wondered what that noise was outside, it must be Ragnarok starting.

Noemi " [Eek!] "

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Alluvian
I Saw Three Shipments


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quote:
Originally posted by Silver:
I have to agree with you. The couple should be open with each other. When, in one of my previous relationships, I found out that the guy was looking at porn, I felt betrayed and hurt. Oddly, I didn't mind if he told me he was looking at porn, or if he looked at it with me . . . but when he snuck around behind my back, hiding it for months, and I only found out because I walked in on him, THAT hurt. It was like he didn't trust me, didn't believe our relationship was strong enough to confide in me. Maybe I'm idealistic, but I believe that you shouldn't decieve your significant other, especially about things like going out with other people of the opposite sex (or same sex, if gay), watching porn, or, yes, seeing a Dominatirix.
I hope that I'm not wrong in believing my husband and I have the open, honest relationship that I've always longed for.

Didn't read the rest of the thread yet, but just wanted to comment on this.

There are some pretty hefty taboos around porn and/or masturbation in many cultures, North America far from being excluded. I can watch naughty videos with my wife and really enjoy it, and I can also watch naughty videos alone and really enjoy it. It is a hurdle to tell my wife I am going to watch a naughty video alone and then enjoy it. Even when she says to me she does not mind and even encourages it when my sex drive is more than hers. Despite the explicit okay, I still will choose the sneaky route when available. I just don't feel comfortable with it otherwise.

It might be more than just a cultural taboo and something to do with the intersection of fantasy and reality though. Pornography is completely about fantasy, and some fantasies are weird, sick, or just silly. There is a concern that whatever pornography happens to be on will be taken as some sort of weird fetish by my wife when instead of it being a completely unimportant sidenote.

Wife: Do you like women in stilettos?
Me: Huh? She has stilettos?

Heh, Ah well. I don't think I am getting across my intent. ANYWAY, about the original post, I think as long as it remains non-sexual AND not emotionally intimate then it would be okay if the other member of the relationship was aware of it. Both parties should be comfortable with it though, or it will cause a problem weather or not you call it 'cheating'.

Compulsively watching sports is nothing anyone would call cheating, but if it interferes with the relationship who cares what category you put it under?

As with any behavior, it is okay if it does not harm the relationship. Weather it is cheating or not is really just semantics.

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Bad Actor
I Saw Three Shipments


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To quote Pulp Fiction, "If it isn't sex, give me one" in reference to a foot massage. If this isn't sex, is it okay to do with you mother?

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First of Two
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Mama Duck:
Is it a sign of the coming apocalypse when Noemi, STF, Beachlife, and Joe Bentley agree on something?

If it's not, well... I agree with them, too, so it should be, now.

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Mama Duck
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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Well, we're doomed now. Thanks a lot First.

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nurple
We Three Blings


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I know several couples into the BDSM lifestyle that have open relationships and switch between Domming and subbing, but reserve one or the other for their SO. For example, if a woman subs to her husband, she will sub to him only, but will be free to top anyone else.

I've met a few Pro Dommes like that: professionally, they are Dommes, but at home with their SOs, they are submissives.

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Ms. Kringle
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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Okay....I agree with Joe, Noemi, BeachLife, STF, and First.

Yeah...we're all screwed.

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Noemi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Ms. K:
Okay....I agree with Joe, Noemi, BeachLife, STF, and First.

Yeah...we're all screwed.

Jeezy Creezy, what are we supposed to do now? Do you think we can reverse it if we start to disagree on something?

Noemi "quick First, say something extreme"

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First of Two
The Bills of St. Mary's


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Um... Naked hangliding over volcanic updrafts!

That's pretty extreme...

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"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle

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me, no really
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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Somehow I don't think you're helping here. Most people would still agree with you - That is indeed pretty extreme.

[Eek!] [Eek!] [Eek!] [Eek!] We're all gonna die

me

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Noemi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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Damn it First, I was hoping that you'd come up with something everyone could disagree on.

I guess we really are doomed. If anyone is looking for me I'm probably going to be on the ship made from dead men's fingernails.

Noemi

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