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"I think the fluidity of gender is the next big wave in terms of adolescent development," says Caitlin Ryan, a clinical social worker at San Francisco State University who's conducting a long-term sexual orientation and gender survey of youth and their families. "Gender has become part of the defining way that youth organize themselves and rebel against adults."
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Ummmm, am I a homophobe for thinking that decisions of being something other then a heterosexual of a specific gender should wait until your 18? Just for the fact your still a kid and that is kind of a HUGE decision.
I know people have those feeling long before 18, but to act on them and declare yourself something else seems like an adult decision.
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First off, I don't want some want some poor kid being tormented. Tolerance is a fuzzy word for kids. Too many are bullied because they are small and/or look a little different, let alone dressing in drag and not being heterosexual.
Also, there are a very few professions that are considered to be immoral in and of themselves. People make jokes about lawyers and insurance salesman, but they are still considered by most to be legit jobs. However, to a great many people in this country, there is something intrinsically immoral behavior that is not heterosexual. I'm not saying these same people are intolerant, they just don't accept homosexuality to be just as ethical as heterosexuality. In this cultural circumstance, that is why I think "coming out" should wait until a person is older.
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I see your point, ticrazyguy. At the same time, if there is abuse and intolerance, shouldn't that be considered the problem, not the harmless (if unconventional) behavior of the people they're vicitmizing? I know I have spent a good deal of my life in fear of the way others would react to the "real me" to the point where even I'm not entirely sure who the "real me" is. If the new generation is having the courage to break out of that, that in itself will result in more tolerance. The last thing you want to do is be ashamed; that's just asking for the abuse.
And it's not like we make people wait till they're 18 to "come out" as heterosexual -- rather the reverse.
Now, I admit it's not to my taste. Though I am a crossdresser (or transgendered, depending on your definition) I've always been oddly uncomfortable with androgyny or behavior that blurs gender lines. I want to be perecieved and treated as a woman when I'm dressed as one, and as a man the rest of the time -- but never as something in between. But that's totally subjective; objectively, I think the blurring is probably a healthier approach; so much of what we consider gender-specific behavior is arbitrary and a matter of cultural norms, and even for that which may be determined or influenced by biology, I think there's much more of a spectrum than a simple black-and-white with a solid line in between.
(I've also often thought that if someone is going to go the full route of surgical sex reassignment, the best time to do it, really, would be before puberty; this would result in much more normal physical and social development in the new gender. Of course, I recognize the problem, that allowing someone to make that decision for themselves before age 12 -- or having it made for them -- has pretty serious ethical issues. Still, in the case where the cross-gender behavior clearly has begun in early childhood, I think an argument can be made.)
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I was talking about this with a friend the other day. Her four year old loves pink. And wearing dresses. And earrings. And carrying a doll around as a baby and having tea parties with it.
And he gets beaten up. Just last week he got his face stamped on.
The thing is, she tried to disallow him from having and wearing such things because she knew how much trouble it would lend him. And he cried himself to sleep every single night. So now he's not allowed to wear that kind of thing outside the house. But you know what? He proudly talks about how much he likes that stuff, and that's what gets him beaten up. And he doesn't care. Because he thinks that they're silly and he's right.
And you know what? He's right. He's 4 and he's decided who he is and what he wants to be. I mean, sure he might change when he's older but, for now this is who he is.
My friend's trying to wean him on to more gender neutral colours, although she hates that she feels that she has to even try to do this to try to protect him, because she also doesn't feel that he's wrong - they are. But when "they" are 99% of other people and your son is 4 then what do you do?
In the mean time, he's being signed up for kung-fu lessons. So, at least, in a couple of years, if he still wants to dress like this and likes to wear pink, then he'll be tough enough to be the one stamping on faces.
But the point is that it might not necessarily be a choice for someone to declare who they are. And if the person wants to "out themselves" (as it might be) then who, exactly, is going to stop them?
-------------------- seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears. Posts: 16061 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2000
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It is also very sad that what happened to your friends 4-yo rarely if ever happens to a girl.
I was the biggest tomboy growing up. Around age 3-4 when my mom started giving limited options to dress myself, I ALWAYS chose pants and a blue/green/purple/black t-shirt. I never wore dresses unless I was forced to. In grade school I alwats hung around with guys. I was the only "girl" invited to several all boy parties because I just blnded right in (I didn't use the men's room though).
When I was around 8, I convinced my mom to take me to get my hair cut short and kept it that way for years. I played with GI Joes, Ninja Turtles, Ghostbusters. I dug holes in the backyard to catch worms and fling them at people, around 6 my dad noticed my interest in tools and started teaching me about them. By 8 I was helping him saw branches off trees and bushes. My coordination wasn't great and I got cut alot but it never bothered me. When I saw blood I was fascinated not scared. I was constantly mistaken for a boy and I didn't care. My parents didn't care either. They just let me be me because for the most part, society doesn't care how girls dress.
I spent from about age 3 to age 14 acting like a boy. And I was pretty happy with myself, and no one tried to stop, and no one beat me up because I was wierd. Then I hit high school with the breed of girls who will convince even other wierdos you aren't cool enough to talk to and threaten to beat you up at the gas station. So I changed. And since then I haven't felt as myself because it was hard, hmm impossible, to change back after 4 years of everyone scrutinizing everything about me.
Posts: 789 | From: Illinois | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by ticrazyguy: However, to a great many people in this country, there is something intrinsically immoral behavior that is not heterosexual. I'm not saying these same people are intolerant, they just don't accept homosexuality to be just as ethical as heterosexuality.
Whether you like it or not, that is pretty close to the very definition of intolerance. And it's their problem, not that of gay kids and teenagers. Almost all GLBT people will tell you they knew they were "different" long before they turned 18. Perhaps they were in denial about it for years - often because of the severe intolerance they'd have to endure at school if they were out - but they knew. School is usually not a safe place for gays and lesbians to be open about whom they are, and that's got to change.
-------------------- Another lifetime I'd have fallen in love with you Swept away by my feelings, ashamed and confused But just now it's enough to be walking with you Let the mystery play as it will! -Lui Collins Posts: 2669 | From: Jouy en Josas, France | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by ticrazyguy: Ummmm, am I a homophobe for thinking that decisions of being something other then a heterosexual of a specific gender should wait until your 18? Just for the fact your still a kid and that is kind of a HUGE decision.
I know people have those feeling long before 18, but to act on them and declare yourself something else seems like an adult decision.
No problem, as long as straights have to wait until 18 as well. Otherwise it's discriminatory, bigoted, and intolerant.
While we're at it, let's make sure no one practices any particular religion before 18, as well. Because, after all, if you're under 18 you're still a kid, and that's a pretty adult decision.
Four Kitties
-------------------- If swimming is so good for your figure, how do you explain whales? Posts: 13275 | From: Kindergarten World, Massachusetts | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by ticrazyguy: Ummmm, am I a homophobe for thinking that decisions of being something other then a heterosexual of a specific gender should wait until your 18? Just for the fact your still a kid and that is kind of a HUGE decision.
I know people have those feeling long before 18, but to act on them and declare yourself something else seems like an adult decision.
When I first read your response, I hadn't yet looked at the article and thought that it was about sex change operations. But if the kids are dressing like the opposite gender (like, makeup and skirts), then what's the problem? It seems strange to me, but if those kids really want to do it, then fine, no skin off my back. I would just hope that other kids would not torment those who wish to dress, sooooo... differently, I should say.
Roo "Never thought about this one before" Bug
-------------------- The Snopester formerly known as RooBug Posts: 556 | From: Pittsburgh | Registered: Jan 2005
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Lots of people decalre and explore their heterosexual sexuality long before they are legally adults, or even before they can legally explore that sexuality. In other words, boys and girls have been having underage sex for a long time, and it is more or less accepted as a "normal" reaction to puberty. Right?
Fair is fair, or at least it should be, for those who are exploring homosexual sexuality. The very same laws for age should apply for same-sex or opposite-sex relationships.
The law *should* be blind to gender issues.
-------------------- "The fate of *billions* depends on you! Hahahahaha....sorry." Lord Raiden - Mortal Kombat Posts: 1587 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Originally posted by ticrazyguy: Ummmm, am I a homophobe for thinking that decisions of being something other then a heterosexual of a specific gender should wait until your 18? Just for the fact your still a kid and that is kind of a HUGE decision.
I know people have those feeling long before 18, but to act on them and declare yourself something else seems like an adult decision.
Why is sexuality and dress choice such a HUGE decision that only adults can make it? Adolescence is the time for trying on bits of behavior and seeing if they fit. Personally, I keep in touch with none of my high school acquaintances. I think high school is the perfect time to experiment, because if you change your mind you can easily start fresh after graduation without repercussions.
Posts: 2115 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2003
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Just as a note: one shouldn't minimize the importance of "dress choice" because it isn't just dress choice; it's a matter of gender identity. Every few years as I was growing up, there'd be some article in a newspaper or magazine showing how some fashion designer was bringing out "skirts for men" and predicting they'd catch on. They never have, but if they ever did, I imagine some friends of mine who still don't "get it" would think I'd be thrilled and wear them a lot. I don't think so, any more than I've ever felt any great urge to wear a kilt, which would be perfectly acceptable in some social contexts I've been involved in. The reason I want to wear dresses and skirts is because they are associated with women, not just because I have some irrational dislike of pants.
GooglyEyes points out that no one really thought it all that odd when she was growing up that she was a tomboy. True, and she's right there's an unfairness there. On the other hand, while she says she wore pants, hung out with boys, and engaged in a lot of traditionally masculine behaviors, she doesn't say that she actually wanted to be a boy. She says she didn't mind being mistaken for one, but she doesn't say that it thrilled her, either. There is a difference.
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Maybe there is some misunderstanding of what I said. When I was talkign about being 18 before coming out as GLBT (did I get all of them?) I was NOT talking in a legal sense. They CAN do be whatever they want, but I think it is a bad idea for parents and community to nurse those beliefs. They should tolerate and be kind, but no has to think it's perfectly ok.
quote: Originally posted by ticrazyguy: However, to a great many people in this country, there is something intrinsically immoral behavior that is not heterosexual. I'm not saying these same people are intolerant, they just don't accept homosexuality to be just as ethical as heterosexuality. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Whether you like it or not, that is pretty close to the very definition of intolerance.
BULL! Accepting something and tolerating are 2 completely different things, at least in my definition. For example, person A is around somebody person B. Person B is GLBT, take your pic. Person A thinks GLBT is completely immoral, but treats person B with respect and does not treat him in any different way then anybody else. That is tolerance, even though person A thinks person B is acting incredibly poorly and may not even like him for it, he doesn't mistreat him. Accepting would be if person A didn't think there was anything wrong with GLBT. An individual's thoughts are that person's own. They can have completely bigoted thoughts, but still be tolerant as long as their thoughts don't translate into action.
quote: Originally posted by ticrazyguy: Ummmm, am I a homophobe for thinking that decisions of being something other then a heterosexual of a specific gender should wait until your 18? Just for the fact your still a kid and that is kind of a HUGE decision.
I know people have those feeling long before 18, but to act on them and declare yourself something else seems like an adult decision. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No problem, as long as straights have to wait until 18 as well. Otherwise it's discriminatory, bigoted, and intolerant.
Nope, cultural context has to be considered. The vast majority in this country have religious views that regard GLBT as immoral/sin. Weather you like it or not, the majority culture has to be taken in to consideration.
My position on all of this is NOT that culture, it is for those children. I do not want to see or hear about kids getting hurt and mistreated because they are different. I was picked on a lot as a little kid and I cringe at the thought of how I would have been treated if I was GLBT.
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quote:Originally posted by Echinodermata Q. Taft: Just as a note: one shouldn't minimize the importance of "dress choice" because it isn't just dress choice; it's a matter of gender identity.
I don't want to speak for kismet, but I got the impression that she was saying something along the lines of "wearing a dress or becoming a goth at 14 is going to get you beaten up". It's a matter of gender identity where you are concerned. To the kind of person that is going to beat a cross-dresser up the reasons for it are immaterial, they just see a target.
quote:ticrazyguy said: They should tolerate and be kind, but no has to think it's perfectly ok.
But it is perfectly okay.
quote:My position on all of this is NOT that culture, it is for those children. I do not want to see or hear about kids getting hurt and mistreated because they are different. I was picked on a lot as a little kid and I cringe at the thought of how I would have been treated if I was GLBT.
Yup. We should also outlaw mixed-race marriages and sex so that there are no mixed-race children. Also we should ghettoise everybody because the white kids will beat up the black ones and the black ones will beat up the white ones. Those who are adopted better go to a different school. But they might get picked on outisde the gates. Okay, so we'll have a different community for them....
And so on. As you yourself have said, kids will get beaten up. It happnes, and you cannot change it. Take my friend's son. He is 4. He doesn't dress any differently to the other kids when he is outside the home. But he still gets beaten up because he is proud of who he is and will loudly and proudly talk about how much he likes pink and dressing as a girl and having tea parties with dolls. He gets beaten up for it and he doesn't care because he considers getting beaten up a fair price for being who he is.
Now how, exactly, do you figure to stop him? He'd have to stay at home all day every day until either he goes through this phase (if that's what it is) or turns 18. That'll help him integrate into society, won't it?
You're essentially saying that to stop queerbashing everybody should remain in the closet. No, if there's a prejudice in society, the answer to stopping those that are being discriminated against from getting hurt isn't hiding them away, it's changing society. And you foster such change by learning and understanding. It's a long and painful process, but it doesn't happen by pretending that those who are discriminated against don't exist.
-------------------- seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears. Posts: 16061 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Four Kitties: No problem, as long as straights have to wait until 18 as well. Otherwise it's discriminatory, bigoted, and intolerant.
Nope, cultural context has to be considered. The vast majority in this country have religious views that regard GLBT as immoral/sin. Weather you like it or not, the majority culture has to be taken in to consideration.
Vast majority? Really? I was unaware of this, which is odd since this is an issue that I have studied quite extensively. Perhaps you can back this up with something other than taking your word for it.
Here, for instance, is a non-partisan poll taken in October of 2003 which says "a 55% majority believes it is a sin to engage in homosexual behavior." That doesn't seem very vast to me, particularly since that attitude has been changing so rapidly over the last decade. Considering that rapid change, two years since that poll is a long time (not a vastly long time, but still...).
Four Kitties
-------------------- If swimming is so good for your figure, how do you explain whales? Posts: 13275 | From: Kindergarten World, Massachusetts | Registered: Jul 2003
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Besides that, even if it were a "vast" majority, that wouldn't make it right. There was a time when a vast majority of Americans supported slavery, barring women and minorities from going to school or owning property, etc. The fact that vast majorities supported those things didn't make them any less reprehensible.
Also, that hypo of yours holds no water. When was the last time you heard of children thinking a characteristic was reprehensible but not hassling their peers over it? It's not that much more common with adults either, come to think of it.
-------------------- Another lifetime I'd have fallen in love with you Swept away by my feelings, ashamed and confused But just now it's enough to be walking with you Let the mystery play as it will! -Lui Collins Posts: 2669 | From: Jouy en Josas, France | Registered: May 2005
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Dave is right. Kids will find something no matter what.
Obviously, we must not permit any child under 18 to wear glasses, or braces. And hand-me-downs? Never! All children must wear only brand-new clothing in the latest style (at least until they are capable of defending "vintage" as a fashion choice).
Let's see, what else? PE must be eliminated, so that kids who are not good at sports won't be teased. Music and art, same thing. Academics! Chess club, math club -- out. All those poor nerds -- better not teach anyone anything, for fear that a kid will be labeled too smart or too dumb and be hassled.
Makeup! All the same, or none? Let's get all these little munchkins in lockstep. Shoes, too.
And heaven forfend we keep mainstreaming the differently-abled: deaf, blind, and physically handicapped kids. We must lock those poor children into institutions for their own protection.
Soon all but the perky cheerleader/football player types will be safely hidden away until they are 18; then the Stepford world will be a perfect place.
Four Kitties
-------------------- If swimming is so good for your figure, how do you explain whales? Posts: 13275 | From: Kindergarten World, Massachusetts | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote: And he gets beaten up. Just last week he got his face stamped on.
Sorry, what? Where is this 4-year old hanging out that this happens, the pool-hall?
Over here, 4-year olds are usually in what's called pre-K or Nursery school (kindergarten generally starts around 5). And where are the teacher or day-care providers while this is happening?
Additionally, most 4-year olds wouldn't be passing that kind of judgement. Is your friend quite sure the fight wasn't over possession of a toy or something?
Just seems really unlikely that there are troops of red-neck 4-year olds running around, beating up other kids. And if it's older kids doing this, I can only ask again, where is this kid spending his time?
Ali "or maybe my kids were unusually docile when they were 4" Baba
Posts: 3068 | From: Kensington, MD | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote:Originally posted by ticrazyguy: Ummmm, am I a homophobe for thinking that decisions of being something other then a heterosexual of a specific gender should wait until your 18? Just for the fact your still a kid and that is kind of a HUGE decision.
That is unfortunately a common misconception.People do not choose their sexual orientation,it's just the way they are,sometime they just don't fully realize it yet.And of course the big taboos don't help either.
-------------------- "I love God,he's so deliciously evil!" -Stewie,Family Guy
The fun thing about standards is that they come in so many varieties. Posts: 510 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Sep 2004
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ticrazyguy
The Red and the Green Stamps
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quote: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ticrazyguy said: They should tolerate and be kind, but no has to think it's perfectly ok. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Trollface said: But it is perfectly okay.
As a Christian, I don't think so. Don't get me wrong, a lot of things aren't "okay" and some of them I and everyone is guilty of doing. I was trying to keep this out of "my christian views vs. your humanism views," but I think that might be worth mentioning.
quote:Four Kitties said: Vast majority? Really? I was unaware of this, which is odd since this is an issue that I have studied quite extensively. Perhaps you can back this up with something other than taking your word for it.
Whatever your doing, stop. Take a deep breath and calm down. Your right, I should have put up a link. My bad and thank you for your link to la Pew. Now 55% is still pretty hi IMO. Not to mention anti gay marriage is even higher at 59%. So it seems even in that other 45%, there is some major doubters. Oh, and kitties, I get the feeling your taking this personaly. Relax . You can let your kid dress in any way and be GLBT, I might disagree and be a bit concerned, but your entitled to parent any way you see fit.
I think I need to address something in general. I am reading a lot of comments comparing not wanting your kid to crossdress or openly be GLBT to not being something/doing something what "normal" kids do. Get braces, practice religion, be of a mixed race, all of the above. Unless you live in San Fran, there is no way a little boy who constently wears a dress and and thinks of himself as "gay" is going to be treated the same way as the skinney biracial kid with glasses. Not to mention how he would be treated by some adults.
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quote:Originally posted by AliBaba: Sorry, what? Where is this 4-year old hanging out that this happens, the pool-hall?
That's school. It's a fairly rough and intolerant town - having spent quite a few of my formative years there, I can personally attest to that.
quote:And where are the teacher or day-care providers while this is happening?
I assume that they put a stop to it, and punished the other child if they saw it. I honestly didn't enquire. But 2 workers with 40 kids (or whatever) can't see everything that everybody does, can they?
quote:Additionally, most 4-year olds wouldn't be passing that kind of judgement. Is your friend quite sure the fight wasn't over possession of a toy or something?
He gets teased and beaten up a lot for exactly this. He's also one of those scrupulously honest kids that would have said if it'd been about a toy.
quote:Just seems really unlikely that there are troops of red-neck 4-year olds running around, beating up other kids.
Really? That's exactly how I remember it being when I was that age.
quote:ticrazyguy said: As a Christian, I don't think so.
Where in the bible does it say anything about men not wearing dresses? Did Jesus wear trousers? Do vicars?
And does this explain why you're only concerned about the kids who get bullied for gender and sexuality issues, rather than ones, say, of mixed race?
Besides, you make that statement, but you've not answered the important things you've been asked. My friend's son - what do you propose she does?
-------------------- seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears. Posts: 16061 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2000
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My son, who will be three soon, likes to play with and brush my hair, and have his nails painted. Does this mean he's going to be a homosexual when he grows up? I have no idea, but I want him to be happy being himself as long as he can, before society and the preconceived notions of what boys and girls are take over.
I don't know what my point really is (it is almost 6am with no sleep). I guess trollface's story got to me. Maybe because I could be in his friend's situation, but I'll have to deal with his father's prejeduices already, never mind the rest of the world.
Just ignore my post.
-------------------- Come on, come on, we were once upon a time in love If the only prayer you say in your life is thank you, that would suffice. - Meister Eckhart My Blog Posts: 7725 | From: Columbus, Ohio | Registered: Nov 2000
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quote:My son, who will be three soon, likes to play with and brush my hair, and have his nails painted. Does this mean he's going to be a homosexual when he grows up?
I don't think there's any real way of knowing. When my son was young, he liked to play with my daughter's Barbie dolls - but I think that was more a fascination with the bumps and curves on them (that the other dolls around the house didn't have) than anything. Letting him play with Barbies and sleep with stuffed animals didn't do a damn thing to stop him from being straight now - it's not a choice.
My personal opinion is that any parent who can't except their own child's sexual or gender identity is not really a parent. You wouldn't say that it's ok to stop loving them if they came out with green eyes instead of blue, or red hair instead of blond - I just don't see how this is any different.
Ali "love is not love which alters when it alteration finds" Baba
Posts: 3068 | From: Kensington, MD | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ticrazyguy said: They should tolerate and be kind, but no has to think it's perfectly ok. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Trollface said: But it is perfectly okay.
As a Christian, I don't think so. Don't get me wrong, a lot of things aren't "okay" and some of them I and everyone is guilty of doing. I was trying to keep this out of "my christian views vs. your humanism views," but I think that might be worth mentioning.
quote:Four Kitties said: Vast majority? Really? I was unaware of this, which is odd since this is an issue that I have studied quite extensively. Perhaps you can back this up with something other than taking your word for it.
Whatever your doing, stop. Take a deep breath and calm down. Your right, I should have put up a link. My bad and thank you for your link to la Pew. Now 55% is still pretty hi IMO. Not to mention anti gay marriage is even higher at 59%. So it seems even in that other 45%, there is some major doubters. Oh, and kitties, I get the feeling your taking this personaly. Relax . You can let your kid dress in any way and be GLBT, I might disagree and be a bit concerned, but your entitled to parent any way you see fit.
I think I need to address something in general. I am reading a lot of comments comparing not wanting your kid to crossdress or openly be GLBT to not being something/doing something what "normal" kids do. Get braces, practice religion, be of a mixed race, all of the above. Unless you live in San Fran, there is no way a little boy who constently wears a dress and and thinks of himself as "gay" is going to be treated the same way as the skinney biracial kid with glasses. Not to mention how he would be treated by some adults.
This is the most disturbing post I've seen in quite some time. I am really hoping that you are a clever troll, ticrazyguy. Do you really consider yourself a "christian"?
-------------------- Support you local community newspaper! CNN.com probably won't be covering your child's spelling bee. Posts: 609 | From: Rhode Island | Registered: May 2005
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"Where in the bible does it say anything about men not wearing dresses?"
Deuteronomy 22:5. And you can't get any tattoos, either. Read up.
ticrazyguy, I am a little disturbed by your saying that you can feel someone is completely immoral but that you wouldn't treat them any differently than someone else, so you are still "tolerating" them. How far does that go? What if they're torturing the hostages in their basement?
More generally, I think the OP is stating what is already a matter of fact--youth culture today is messing around with gender identity, in subtle and not-so-subtle ways. Discussions of whether or not it is ethical, or whether or not the parent's approve of it, are in a way only tangentially related.
Posts: 330 | From: New Haven, VT | Registered: Sep 2005
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I don't want to draw too much firepower, lord knows anybody who pays attention to my posts knows my poision on homosexual issues (and also probobly has suffered severe brain damage as a result of reading my stuff, feel free to join in the class action suit..) but, to a point, I can see what ticrazyguy is saying.. To a point.
You cannot really, in my opinion, fully control how you feel. If you think that homosexuality is gross, or wrong, or evil, or whatever.. You really cannot control it, at least in your mind, that is without lying to yourself.
However you can control how you act on it in society, that is where tolerance comes in.
Now where I think he's wrong is by saying that cause a little over half of the country thinks its wrong all people should stifle their true selves (or their experimentations) until they are 18..
I mean lets start with one simple fact.. Kids may be cruel.. But they learn it from adults. I don't think that adult GLBT's have it particularly easy. Depending on where you live they have to deal with mild contempt/neverousness to extreme physical violence.. So to pretend that at the magical age of 18 the world all of a sudden becomes gay friendly, or that a person magically gains the ability to deal with all the prejudices of the world.. Well its just silly.
Better they start early, because it will be useful on two levels..
One, sadly it will help get them used to how alot of the country is gonna treat them. People aren't very tolerant of homosexuals in alot of areas, and even if you may not get beat up, you can certainly expect alot of other problems to crop up, better to learn to deal with the idiots of the world early rather then later.
Secondly, in a Zap Branigan level of logic*, the more people who 'come out' as gay and are seen for who they are (not crazy flamboiant effeminat men or ice pick killers) the more tolerant people will get. Granted, its probobly not gonna pay of for you (the person who is 'coming out') but it works toward the ultimate goal. The more 'normal' homosexuality is the less people will have problems with it..
I mean who do you think will have more problems, the only black kid in an all white school or the black kids in a school that has about 25% minorties? ..Ok, poor analogy, but my brain is only working at 7% capacity today. The point being the more people can relate to GLBT's (and one level is by knowing one) the more tolerant, nay even accepting, people will be.
I cannot even imagine having to make the call that the parents of the four year old would have to make.. But ultimatly, this is not something that will affect the rest of his life, its something that affectst he here and now. The main concequence is he gets beaten up, not that he won't qualify for a boat loan at 35, so I say let him make the call. If he dosn't mind paying the price of a beating from idiots.. Well then thats his call to make.
All this said, there is something to be said for knowing when and where to say something for your own good. I'm an athiest, something that while bad (in the south, where I live) its nowhere near as difficult as having to be gay and deal with people (i'd assume). So I've learned that, while I never lie about it, there are some places it may be good not to mention it. While I've never been worried about physical violence, I have in the past had to deal with verbal abuse and such..
But how people want to deal with this choice, when to 'hide' who you are and when not to, is up to them and something they need to work out on their own..
Hope at least some of that made senese..
Ticrazyguy.. While I do understand the point you are trying to make, you need to look at some past examples of the same idea (integrated schools, interracial marriages, etc) before you really make the call because while stifling who you are may make the here and now a little easier it can make the future much much worse..
*Adapted from the quote explaining how he vanquished the horde of rampaging killbots...
"I sent wave after wave of my own men against them until they reached their pre-set kill limit and shut down"..
By 'coming out' you are gonna be one of those 'men' who's probobly not gonna make it. You'll probobly be made fun of at best, beaten up at worse.. But by doing so you move 'society' one step closer to seeing homosexuality as 'normal' so that people of the future will have less problems when they decide to 'come out'.
-------------------- "All people are responsible for the good that they didn't do" Posts: 4774 | From: Virginia | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by ticrazyguy: As a Christian, I don't think so. Don't get me wrong, a lot of things aren't "okay" and some of them I and everyone is guilty of doing. I was trying to keep this out of "my christian views vs. your humanism views," but I think that might be worth mentioning.
But it is perfectly okay.
They should tolerate and be kind, but no has to think it's perfectly ok.
I'm also Christian, unless you think Catholic doesn't count as Christian.
quote:Originally posted by ticrazyguy:
quote:Originally posted by Four Kitties: Vast majority? Really? I was unaware of this, which is odd since this is an issue that I have studied quite extensively. Perhaps you can back this up with something other than taking your word for it.
Whatever your doing, stop. Take a deep breath and calm down.
Whatever I'm doing, stop? WTF does that mean? Stop objecting to bigotry whenever and wherever I see it? Not gonna happen.
Do share what it is that I'm doing that you think you can tell me to stop, won't you?
quote:Originally posted by ticrazyguy: Your right, I should have put up a link. My bad and thank you for your link to la Pew. Now 55% is still pretty hi IMO. Not to mention anti gay marriage is even higher at 59%. So it seems even in that other 45%, there is some major doubters.
55% is still not a vast majority by any stretch of the imagination, particularly since that number has been crashing downward for the last decade or so.
quote:Oh, and kitties, I get the feeling your taking this personaly. Relax . You can let your kid dress in any way and be GLBT, I might disagree and be a bit concerned, but your entitled to parent any way you see fit.
I do take it personally. Not because I'm gay, or because my child is gay, but because this is human rights issue and I am a human being.
If my child grows up to be gay, bi, or trans, I will love her and support her. And I will warn her about encountering people like you as she goes through life.
As a matter of fact, I will warn her about people like you anyway. I will not allow my child to grow up to be a bigot no matter what her sexual orientation.
Four Kitties
-------------------- If swimming is so good for your figure, how do you explain whales? Posts: 13275 | From: Kindergarten World, Massachusetts | Registered: Jul 2003
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zakor
The Red and the Green Stamps
posted
quote:As a Christian, I don't think so. Don't get me wrong, a lot of things aren't "okay" and some of them I and everyone is guilty of doing. I was trying to keep this out of "my christian views vs. your humanism views," but I think that might be worth mentioning.
I'm not sure where you're getting your interpretation of "Christian," but the Jesus Christ that I read about didn't spread a whole lot of ideas of intolerance. May I suggest that the "Christians" telling you that you'll burn in hell turn to a different chapter of Leviticus, which, as you'll recall, is the Old Testament, not the New Testament.
Take Leviticus 20:
quote:12: And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them.
Seems pretty straight forward, doesn't it? The Bible states that homosexuality is wrong. Maybe it is. Let's look at what else that *same* book of the Bible says...Leviticus 11:
quote:9: These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat. 10: And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
That's right, no shellfish...In the same book of the Bible that tells you to "not be gay," you're also told that shellfish will also cause you to burn in eternal heck.
quote:13: And these are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray,
One might twist this passage into thining that God hates the USA...
But I digress. Leviticus is where many sanitary laws are made religious edict. It's where the Jewish kosher ideas have their origin.
I'd like to think that we've come a long way, you know, learning to boil shellfish rather than eat them out right....Cook your PORK a long time, and eat it, unlike Leviticus 20:4 which proscribes pork.
I respectfully submit that you ask any "Christian" who tells you that homosexuality is wrong if he/she follows the kosher laws similar to those of Judaism, if not, you may rest assured that they will stand near you at the entryway to heck.
To make a long story short: use your imagination, you're gay, it's the year 30 AD, and some hippie with long hair and 12 guys who hang around in the countryside come up to you. You say, "Jesus, I'm gay, do you still love me? Is there a place for me in Your eternal plan?"
Jesus answers: ______________________________
(Don't let the turkeys get you down)
. . . .
Someone else said:
quote:Whether you like it or not, that is pretty close to the very definition of intolerance. And it's their problem, not that of gay kids and teenagers.
While that's true, it's hard to get that point across while the five guys who jumped out of the pickup truck are beating on a gay kid.
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quote:Originally posted by EthanMitchell: Deuteronomy 22:5. And you can't get any tattoos, either. Read up.
Well, there you go. And women aren't allowed to wear trousers, it seems. Nor are we allowed to wear fabrics made of two kinds of thread, build a house without a parapet (and, presumably not live in one, either), or wear clothes that don't have tassels.
Oh, and if a man accuses his wife of not being a virgin when they were married, and her parents can't prove that she was, then we get to kill her. Bargain.
-------------------- seriously , everyone on here , just trys to give someone crap about something they do !! , its shitting me to tears. Posts: 16061 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
How odd, EthanMitchell. The KJV version of Deut 22:5 in my bible doesn't say anything about dresses. Instead, it says "The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so [are] abomination unto the LORD thy God."
This raises an interesting question: did men of that time go about in clothes that were more similar to trousers, or clothes that were more similar to dresses? Perhaps you could "read up" and let the rest of us know.
-------------------- ~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~ Posts: 10111 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by trollface: ...build a house without a parapet (and, presumably not live in one, either....
Does a chimney count?
-------------------- If swimming is so good for your figure, how do you explain whales? Posts: 13275 | From: Kindergarten World, Massachusetts | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
Men have worn what we know know as skirts at a variety of times throughout history, though I'm not sure about the biblical era. The fact that they don't do so today is mostly just a reflection of the fact that pants are more convenient for doing manual labor, which was strictly male territory until the fairly recent past. So it's not really here nor there with respect to sexual orientation.
-------------------- Another lifetime I'd have fallen in love with you Swept away by my feelings, ashamed and confused But just now it's enough to be walking with you Let the mystery play as it will! -Lui Collins Posts: 2669 | From: Jouy en Josas, France | Registered: May 2005
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Sub-Contractor
The Red and the Green Stamps
posted
Hmmm, the OP was about gender roles which can, but does not have to, include sexual preferences.
So with this in mind, why can't we just go with not beating people up as a standard response? Try to teach that to kids and ourselves instead of just hauling off and hitting.
How about we concentrate on reaching, teaching and if necessary punishing the hitters?
As far as "Omigawd, think of the future!", and teenage rebellion and oddities, I tend to be very biblical on this...most specifically Ecclesiastes:
The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.
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posted
Well.. Before we can punish the hitters we really need to educate the adults that what they are hitting over is 'wrong'. There are alot of people out there who would probobly love to bust up some gays if they could get away with it.. Knowing that their kids can and usually will get a slap on the wrist at best.. Well they aren't likely to disapline them a whole lot..
I mean think if your kid got fed up with a Phelps Jr. type out there and popped him in the nose.. Sure you'd probobly tell him/her that hitting is wrong and isn't a good way to solve your problems.. But deep down you'd probobly wish you could do the same to some of the Phelps-ish adults out there.. This is the mentality alot of people have regarding gays..
Not beating up people who are different then us would be great.. But we have a long way to go until that happens and the proper disapline of school bullies is a huge other topic.
-------------------- "All people are responsible for the good that they didn't do" Posts: 4774 | From: Virginia | Registered: Feb 2004
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. You can let your kid dress in any way and be GLBT, I might disagree and be a bit concerned, but your entitled to parent any way you see fit. 
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