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Maybe it's the "last bastion," but I submit that we are far, far away from tackling the last bastion of gender inequality. In mho there are many things that are much more important than whether or not we get squicked out sharing bathrooms or struggle to cover our backsides in the hospital. I don't know, perhaps it is totally emotional on my part, but I don't really think so.
My argument has been that a) it is nothing like racism and b) I don't think there is any compelling reason to completely do away with all same sex facilities. I also think that focusing on trying to ignore (deny?) the very real physical differences takes the attention away from the existing problems that unreal perceived differences cause.
There are people who are more open to physical openness and mixed sex facilities. I believe they are usually nudists. That is fine for them; that's why this life style option exists. Possibly, in the distant future this androgynous utopia will exist. Personally, I hope it's not in my life time. It sounds like an inconvenient, on occasion embarrassing, bore. YMMV of course.
P&LL, Syl
-------------------- Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire Posts: 1944 | From: Michigan | Registered: Jun 2001
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Then I think we agree on everything! That's awesome I would be too uncomfortable with it if it happened now, and I do think that there are much more important things to take care of first. And that it is nothing like racism.
But on an intellectual level, I would like to see it happen one day.
-------------------- "For me, religion is like a rhinoceros: I don't have one, and I'd really prefer not to be trampled by yours. But it is impressive, and even beautiful, and, to be honest, the world would be slightly worse off if there weren't any." -Silas Sparkhammer Posts: 3239 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Sep 2003
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I guess your last point is where we disagree. I would rather not see it come to pass. I think it's an unnecessary denial of ourselves as private sexual beings, but as long as I'm dead I won't care.
P&LL, Syl
-------------------- Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire Posts: 1944 | From: Michigan | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Sylvanz: I guess your last point is where we disagree. I would rather not see it come to pass. I think it's an unnecessary denial of ourselves as private sexual beings, but as long as I'm dead I won't care.
P&LL, Syl
I might go as far as unisex bathrooms that still have stalls. If we had our privacy, we wouldn't have to sacrifice the secret beauty that is nudity. But I'm not sure what we're trying to protect by segregating segretated stalls. "Okay, you people who can't see each other over here, and you people who can't see each other over there." The mystique that men have of women never making awful noises and smells? Trust me, we know you do, just like you know we do.
quote:Originally posted by Sylvanz: I don't think there is any compelling reason to completely do away with all same sex facilities.
This phrase is becoming a munchkin of mine. I would like people to stop using it.
There are plenty of "reasons" to do things. If you think they don't outweigh the reasons not to do them, then say that. But don't say there is "no reason." They're definitely there;
It sounds like the speaker either hasn't been listening or refuses to acknowledge what has already been said.
quote:This phrase is becoming a munchkin of mine. I would like people to stop using it.
There are plenty of "reasons" to do things. If you think they don't outweigh the reasons not to do them, then say that. But don't say there is "no reason." They're definitely there;
Amigone did you not notice the modifier "compelling"? Let me explain lest you don't understand what it means in this context: I don't believe that any evidence has been produced in this thread (or elsewhere for that matter) showing the absolute need to do away with same sex facilities. It really is my perogative to think this since there is no cite or study I know of claiming otherwise. If you think differently the burden is on you to prove it.
A munchkin of mine is when someone attempts to tell me what I'm allowed to think. This applies to when I'm posting a sincere opinion and not if the other poster is trying to call me on a dishonest debating tactic. I would like people to stop doing this. Frankly, though, I doubt either of us will get our wish.
As for "nasty noises and smells" made by the other sex? Don't be silly of course I know that males know that females make them. There is simply not enough privacy in public restrooms for my taste. This applies to whether they are same sex or mixed. It would, for me and I suspect other women and men, add another layer of discomfort to have to share such facilities with the opposite sex. As distasteful as I would find such arrangements, I could probably live with them if I had to. However, I still see no good, compelling, adequate, pick your own modifier, reason to change things now.
P&LL, Syl'modifiers are important parts of sentences pay attention to them'vanz
ETA quote and attribution.
-------------------- Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire Posts: 1944 | From: Michigan | Registered: Jun 2001
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MapleLeaf's doing a far better job of it than I was
I don't think that there's that much of a similarity to racism really, but I am somewhat troubled by opinions such as Sylvanz's "there are some things women need to do in the bathroom that I would prefer not to have a man in the next stall while I'm doing them" (sorry to pick you out the Syl, just a handy example) - troubled because again, I just don't see where the speaker's coming from. It's outside my realm of comprehension, I suppose.
I don't particularly want anyone seeing me naked and vulnerable or being probed or hearing me take a dump or whatever. But the very fact that I might be seen/heard doing these things is what I don't like, rather than the gender (or age, race, sexual orientation, etc.) of whoever's unfrotunate enough to witness such a thing.
MapelLeaf:
quote:I think if we could acknowledge the biological differences between men and women, but treat them in a "so what?" manner, things would be better for all. Hmm, now that I think about it, I guess this is really close to the idea of irradicating all notions of gender (which I've always strongly opposed without giving it much thought). Interesting things happen when I think...
The "so what?" attitude is what I have now, I think, but IMO it's not even close to eradicating notions of gender: quite the opposite. For me, it's an acknowledgement that there are differences between genders - many differences - but...well, so what? Yes they exist, but are they so important that we have to shut ourselves off from one another when we do them? In my own opinion, no.
-------------------- Silence should never under any circumstances be construed as agreement. A lot of the time, it's simply a reflection that someone just said something so stupid that no response could possibly do it justice. - Ramblin' Dave Posts: 8528 | From: Nottingham, England | Registered: Feb 2000
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Mosh, perhaps it's my age or my personal need for a lot of privacy? Really though sharing bathrooms with men would just be adding insult to injury for me. I just hate how unprivate public restrooms are. I could never figure out why the stalls couldn't possibly go all the way to the floor and up to the ceiling. Hell, many of them a tall female can look over. It's just a matter of comfort and I bet I'm not the only one who feels this way.
As for sharing hospital rooms: I absolutely do not think that is a good idea. Men's and women's health concerns are different. Men's and women's bodies respond differently to meds and diseases. Why should they not have their own wards where their unique needs can be met individually? Human beings are also sexual creatures and being in such a vulnerable intimate situation would be very uncomfortable to some of us. These are just a few reasons I can think of and I really think that they are good reasons.
I think you are unusual in your casual approach which is good for you. However, this implies that you wouldn't care one way or the other if your room was mixed sex, where as for me it would make me terribly uncomfortable...so why change it? It doesn't hurt anyone to remain the way it is, but it would affect many of us negatively to change it. As I said to Amigone there seems to be no compelling reason to change, and a few good ones not to change.
This is really rather funny; I'm usually the big rebel who wants everything to change.
P&LL, Syl'hope they don't take away my rebel card'vanz
-------------------- Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire Posts: 1944 | From: Michigan | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Sylvanz: Mosh, perhaps it's my age or my personal need for a lot of privacy? Really though sharing bathrooms with men would just be adding insult to injury for me. I just hate how unprivate public restrooms are. I could never figure out why the stalls couldn't possibly go all the way to the floor and up to the ceiling. Hell, many of them a tall female can look over. It's just a matter of comfort and I bet I'm not the only one who feels this way.
It's one of those things that bothers me when I visit the U.S. The vast majority of public restrooms in Switzerland, even those in the work area, have doors that go almost down to the floor and are much higher than those typically found in the U.S.
There are many upscale departments stores that each bathroom customer has full (except for noise) privacy while using the toilet. Except for a vent, the "stall" is completely enclosed. For this reason it is important to heed the color of the lock as it's not possible to look underneath to see if a stall is occupied. I am sometimes amazed at the people who don't notice the lock color (red/green).
But then, there was someone who attempted to get in the airplane bathroom while it was occupied by me. "Occupied" is written in three different languages, and still people don't notice.
-------------------- "Strength is the capacity to break a chocolate bar into four pieces with your bare hands - and then eat just one of the pieces." Judith Viorst Posts: 1082 | From: Luzern, Switzerland | Registered: Jan 2005
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Richard W
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
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quote:Sylvanz said: However, this implies that you wouldn't care one way or the other if your room was mixed sex, where as for me it would make me terribly uncomfortable...so why change it?
In the UK this is current news because of pledges to abolish mixed sex wards, not to introduce them.
Posts: 8725 | From: Ipswich - the UK's 9th Best Place to Sleep! | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Sylvanz: Mosh, perhaps it's my age or my personal need for a lot of privacy? Really though sharing bathrooms with men would just be adding insult to injury for me. I just hate how unprivate public restrooms are. I could never figure out why the stalls couldn't possibly go all the way to the floor and up to the ceiling. Hell, many of them a tall female can look over. It's just a matter of comfort and I bet I'm not the only one who feels this way.
It's one of those things that bothers me when I visit the U.S. The vast majority of public restrooms in Switzerland, even those in the work area, have doors that go almost down to the floor and are much higher than those typically found in the U.S.
This, coupled with Richard's notation of the fact we have mixed wards already, goes a long way to explaining my difference in attitude to Sylvanz's. Toilets here are like Die Capicitrix describes in Switzerland; they're basically little rooms within a bigger room. And it's not uncommon for them to actually be so, with doors that, when shut, completely seal you off from the larger bathroom. The last time I encountered toilets like the ones Syl describes was when I was at school.
-------------------- Silence should never under any circumstances be construed as agreement. A lot of the time, it's simply a reflection that someone just said something so stupid that no response could possibly do it justice. - Ramblin' Dave Posts: 8528 | From: Nottingham, England | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Sylvanz: Mosh, perhaps it's my age or my personal need for a lot of privacy? Really though sharing bathrooms with men would just be adding insult to injury for me. I just hate how unprivate public restrooms are. I could never figure out why the stalls couldn't possibly go all the way to the floor and up to the ceiling. Hell, many of them a tall female can look over. It's just a matter of comfort and I bet I'm not the only one who feels this way.
There's at least one bathroom stall on campus that only reaches my chin. There's a large crack between the door and the stall wall, too, so anyone standing there can watch you do your business. I hate it and I'm at the point where I won't use that bathroom unless no one else is in it. I've been in dressing rooms that had such tiny little doors I felt like I was being covered only by one of those black rectangles they use on TV.
Is anyone advocating the abolishment of gender-segregated dressing rooms?
The point is, the majority of people in the US are uncomfortable enough with some mixed-gender facilities that they haven't caught on. No one should be forced to be uncomfortable. For example, I prefer female doctors especially when dealing with gynecological issues. I don't think male doctors are incompetent, I just have a personal preference that reflects my comfort level. Likewise, I don't want to share private space with anyone, but if I had to I'd prefer to share it with females.
-------------------- "There is no constitutional right to sleep with endangered reptiles." -- Carl Hiaasen Won't somebody please think of the adults! Posts: 8254 | From: Florida | Registered: Oct 2002
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quote:Is anyone advocating the abolishment of gender-segregated dressing rooms?
Not anytime soon. I agree that people aren't ready yet. I'm not advocating it now. What I am suggesting is that, once all the other social inequalities between the genders have been rectified, the fall of gender segregated stuff will signal the arrival of full equality. Think of it as the holy grail of gender equality.
-------------------- "For me, religion is like a rhinoceros: I don't have one, and I'd really prefer not to be trampled by yours. But it is impressive, and even beautiful, and, to be honest, the world would be slightly worse off if there weren't any." -Silas Sparkhammer Posts: 3239 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Sep 2003
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I'd just like to throw my hat in with Mosherette and MapleLeaf in terms of hoping for a world where we don't have this visceral feeling of discomfort when dealing with the opposite gender. I am of the opinion that these feelings mostly have to do with shame about our bodies, and I believe that eradicating that shame is critical to achieving gender equality.
-------------------- Suddenly she realizes that amongst a crazy drunken schoolmarm, a navy swim instructor with a food fetish, a southern hick farmer, a porn star turned used car dealer, and a horny ex-football player, she won't be this strange outsider. Posts: 701 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2000
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Sara at home
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quote:Originally posted by MapleLeaf:
quote:Is anyone advocating the abolishment of gender-segregated dressing rooms?
Not anytime soon. I agree that people aren't ready yet. I'm not advocating it now. What I am suggesting is that, once all the other social inequalities between the genders have been rectified, the fall of gender segregated stuff will signal the arrival of full equality. Think of it as the holy grail of gender equality.
I've been in stores that have mixed gender fitting rooms. Most stores have fitting rooms in particular areas of the store that make them more likely to be used by either males or females, but I haven't seen a fitting room marked with "Women's" or "Men's" in ages. One store I shop regularly has a small men's area and no separate fitting room for men.
-------------------- Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread. Posts: 8317 | From: Reading, PA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Is anyone advocating the abolishment of gender-segregated dressing rooms?
Not anytime soon. I agree that people aren't ready yet. I'm not advocating it now. What I am suggesting is that, once all the other social inequalities between the genders have been rectified, the fall of gender segregated stuff will signal the arrival of full equality. Think of it as the holy grail of gender equality.
Oddly I think of the holy grail of gender equality to be equality of choice. Arguing that gender equality has anything to do with sharing dressing rooms is missing the point by that proverbial country mile.
-------------------- If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr Posts: 18428 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
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quote:Originally posted by HazyCosmicJive: I'd just like to throw my hat in with Mosherette and MapleLeaf in terms of hoping for a world where we don't have this visceral feeling of discomfort when dealing with the opposite gender. I am of the opinion that these feelings mostly have to do with shame about our bodies, and I believe that eradicating that shame is critical to achieving gender equality.
I, for one, don't want gender equality. I want women to have equality of opportunity, but I don't want to be a man's equal, nor do I want any man to be my equal. We are different and I see no need to make us all the same or even pretend like we aren't different.
-------------------- Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread. Posts: 8317 | From: Reading, PA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by HazyCosmicJive: I'd just like to throw my hat in with Mosherette and MapleLeaf in terms of hoping for a world where we don't have this visceral feeling of discomfort when dealing with the opposite gender. I am of the opinion that these feelings mostly have to do with shame about our bodies, and I believe that eradicating that shame is critical to achieving gender equality.
I, for one, don't want gender equality. I want women to have equality of opportunity, but I don't want to be a man's equal, nor do I want any man to be my equal. We are different and I see no need to make us all the same or even pretend like we aren't different.
"Equal", in this context, doesn't mean "the same". I am, legally and socially equal to any other woman in the same country and economic background. I am, however, different from them in appearance, personality, and history. You can make people "equal". You can't make them "the same".
-------------------- "My sandwich choice is uncertain, until I actually order. It's like Schrodinger's Sandwich." "Is plutonium involved in this sandwich in any way?" "Maybe." Posts: 496 | From: Whitby, ON, Canada | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by HazyCosmicJive: I'd just like to throw my hat in with Mosherette and MapleLeaf in terms of hoping for a world where we don't have this visceral feeling of discomfort when dealing with the opposite gender. I am of the opinion that these feelings mostly have to do with shame about our bodies, and I believe that eradicating that shame is critical to achieving gender equality.
I, for one, don't want gender equality. I want women to have equality of opportunity, but I don't want to be a man's equal, nor do I want any man to be my equal. We are different and I see no need to make us all the same or even pretend like we aren't different.
Equal does not mean same in any context.
-------------------- Officially Heartless Posts: 3065 | From: The Montgomery County of the West Coast- Berkeley, CA | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by HazyCosmicJive: I'd just like to throw my hat in with Mosherette and MapleLeaf in terms of hoping for a world where we don't have this visceral feeling of discomfort when dealing with the opposite gender. I am of the opinion that these feelings mostly have to do with shame about our bodies, and I believe that eradicating that shame is critical to achieving gender equality.
I, for one, don't want gender equality. I want women to have equality of opportunity, but I don't want to be a man's equal, nor do I want any man to be my equal. We are different and I see no need to make us all the same or even pretend like we aren't different.
Equal does not mean same in any context.
I'm not trying to be snarky here but do you really think Sara is not well aware of that? It's just that obsessing over whether or not men and women share a public bathroom is not in the least bit critical in the fight for gender equality.
-------------------- If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr Posts: 18428 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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Sara at home
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
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Look, anyone who makes the argument that I can't be "equal" until I'm comfortable with allowing any and all men see my parts and be inimately involved in my bodily functions is ......making an irrational argument. I'm trying to be nice about this, but that's in incredibly stupid argument. Creepy, even.
-------------------- Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread. Posts: 8317 | From: Reading, PA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Sara at home: Look, anyone who makes the argument that I can't be "equal" until I'm comfortable with allowing any and all men see my parts and be inimately involved in my bodily functions is ......making an irrational argument. I'm trying to be nice about this, but that's in incredibly stupid argument. Creepy, even.
Absodamnedlutely!
So, who wants to be "equal," in the first place? I'd rather remain superior, thankyewverymuch. Wouldn't you?
-------------------- "This air we're breathing. Oxygen, isn't it?"~ImNotDedalus, impersonating Vincent DOnofrio.|"Sometimes trying to communicate can be like walking through a minefield."~wanderwoman "Give people a break. It's not easy doing a life."~Joshua Halberstam Posts: 4020 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Sara at home: Look, anyone who makes the argument that I can't be "equal" until I'm comfortable with allowing any and all men see my parts and be inimately involved in my bodily functions is ......making an irrational argument. I'm trying to be nice about this, but that's in incredibly stupid argument. Creepy, even.
Why do I have the strong suspicion that those who think sharing showers, bathrooms and bedrooms with strangers of the opposite sex are the wave of our brave new future aren't anticipating sharing those facilities with my 70 year old handicapped mother or Naked Fat Guy from Friends?
-------------------- If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr Posts: 18428 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Christie: Why do I have the strong suspicion that those who think sharing showers, bathrooms and bedrooms with strangers of the opposite sex are the wave of our brave new future aren't anticipating sharing those facilities with my 70 year old handicapped mother or Naked Fat Guy from Friends?
I give up. Why?
pinqy
-------------------- Don't Forget! Winter Solstice Hanukkah Christmas Kwanzaa & Gurnenthar's Ascendance Are Coming! Posts: 8671 | From: Washington, DC | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote:Look, anyone who makes the argument that I can't be "equal" until I'm comfortable with allowing any and all men see my parts and be inimately involved in my bodily functions is ......making an irrational argument. I'm trying to be nice about this, but that's in incredibly stupid argument. Creepy, even.
Other people have disagreed with me and politely pointed out why they felt how they did, Sylvanz being one. And I understand that what I am saying makes no sense to some people. But if you are going to tell me that anyone who makes my argument is being irrational, and that my argument is incredibly stupid, the least you could do is tell me why. ETA: You are also misconstruing my argument. I never said that men (or women) should "see all your parts" or be intimately involved in your bodily functions. Unless, of course, the women you share bathrooms with right now often see all your parts or are intimately involved with your bodily functions. I'm not arguing for a lack of personal privacy. Only for a lack of the entire population of each gender to be segregated from one another. Within this mixed setting there is always room for personal privacy.
quote:Why do I have the strong suspicion that those who think sharing showers, bathrooms and bedrooms with strangers of the opposite sex are the wave of our brave new future aren't anticipating sharing those facilities with my 70 year old handicapped mother or Naked Fat Guy from Friends?
I already find myself sharing showers and bathrooms with 70-year-old handicapped men and fat ugly men. Would it be worse sharing it with 70-year-old handicapped women and fat ugly women? I don't use sexual attraction as a basis for who I change with.
-------------------- "For me, religion is like a rhinoceros: I don't have one, and I'd really prefer not to be trampled by yours. But it is impressive, and even beautiful, and, to be honest, the world would be slightly worse off if there weren't any." -Silas Sparkhammer Posts: 3239 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Sep 2003
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I can see both sides. There are much more important gender issues to address than sex-segregated facilities.
But, I think that eventually, gender equality will be reached once sex-segregated facilities are no longer needed/used. Because to some (small) extent, the sex-segregation contributes to gender stereotypes. For example, do delicate, fragile women need to be sheltered from the curlish rude males? Do men need to preserve the idea of the pristine woman who never farts?
If we are seperating men and women based on just being men or women, then we are intimating that all women are of a type and all men are of a type and there is no crossover. This ignores the man who appreciates bodily noises being supressed and ignores the woman who wants to be able to let go and not have to smother what naturally comes out of her body.
-------------------- IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan Posts: 3694 | From: Arizona | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by MapleLeaf: I already find myself sharing showers and bathrooms with 70-year-old handicapped men and fat ugly men. Would it be worse sharing it with 70-year-old handicapped women and fat ugly women? I don't use sexual attraction as a basis for who I change with.
Which, of course, is as it should be. Frankly though I find it incredibly difficult to believe that you would be comfortable showering with your grandmother though.
-------------------- If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr Posts: 18428 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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quote:Originally posted by MapleLeaf: I already find myself sharing showers and bathrooms with 70-year-old handicapped men and fat ugly men. Would it be worse sharing it with 70-year-old handicapped women and fat ugly women? I don't use sexual attraction as a basis for who I change with.
Which, of course, is as it should be. Frankly though I find it incredibly difficult to believe that you would be comfortable showering with your grandmother though.
Well not without some kind of partition. I'm not advocating open showers. I don't like them when it's all men showering together. I like individual showers. But seeing my hypothetical still-alive grandmother in a towel after the shower (and of course, changing in cubicles) would not bother me any more than it would were it my hypothetical still-alive grandfather.
ETA: Don't get me wrong. I am strongly in favour of personal privacy. I just think we'd be better off if we didn't have an extra level of privacy between the genders on top of this.
And let me reiterate that I do think it is off the radar in terms of a major concern at the moment.
-------------------- "For me, religion is like a rhinoceros: I don't have one, and I'd really prefer not to be trampled by yours. But it is impressive, and even beautiful, and, to be honest, the world would be slightly worse off if there weren't any." -Silas Sparkhammer Posts: 3239 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by GenYus: IIf we are seperating men and women based on just being men or women, then we are intimating that all women are of a type and all men are of a type and there is no crossover. This ignores the man who appreciates bodily noises being supressed and ignores the woman who wants to be able to let go and not have to smother what naturally comes out of her body.
Well-put. Not a pretty image , but well-put.
-------------------- So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus: Posts: 3216 | From: Denver, CO | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by GenYus: IIf we are seperating men and women based on just being men or women, then we are intimating that all women are of a type and all men are of a type and there is no crossover. This ignores the man who appreciates bodily noises being supressed and ignores the woman who wants to be able to let go and not have to smother what naturally comes out of her body.
Well-put. Not a pretty image , but well-put.
Hang on. I don't want to get too excited just in case I'm wrong...but...are Ryda and I on the same page?
-------------------- "For me, religion is like a rhinoceros: I don't have one, and I'd really prefer not to be trampled by yours. But it is impressive, and even beautiful, and, to be honest, the world would be slightly worse off if there weren't any." -Silas Sparkhammer Posts: 3239 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by MapleLeaf: I already find myself sharing showers and bathrooms with 70-year-old handicapped men and fat ugly men. Would it be worse sharing it with 70-year-old handicapped women and fat ugly women? I don't use sexual attraction as a basis for who I change with.
Which, of course, is as it should be. Frankly though I find it incredibly difficult to believe that you would be comfortable showering with your grandmother though.
Well not without some kind of partition. I'm not advocating open showers. I don't like them when it's all men showering together. I like individual showers. But seeing my hypothetical still-alive grandmother in a towel after the shower (and of course, changing in cubicles) would not bother me any more than it would were it my hypothetical still-alive grandfather.
But the argument you and others have made is that there should be no towel. If you can honestly, hand on heart, tell me that you have absolutely no problems changing in a room full of much older women and having these much older women change in front of you, then fine. But I think you would be an exception.
-------------------- If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr Posts: 18428 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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Others? Maybe. This is the first suggestion I made yesterday:
quote:We would all be self-conscious showering in front of a stranger of the opposite sex because we don't want them to see us naked. Because we have something that they don't and we don't want them to see it. But what if we all used the same changerooms and the showers had doors, and we'd walk out wearing a towel, and if we so desired we could change in individual cubicles...I just think that completely separate facilities for men and women only adds to a focusing on the differences between men and women, rather than looking at how similar they are for the most part (genitals aside).
I'm not advocating everyone seeing each other naked all the time. I'm just saying that having facilities that are designated to one sex or the other and strictly so adds to the divisive nature of how we view the sexes.
-------------------- "For me, religion is like a rhinoceros: I don't have one, and I'd really prefer not to be trampled by yours. But it is impressive, and even beautiful, and, to be honest, the world would be slightly worse off if there weren't any." -Silas Sparkhammer Posts: 3239 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by MapleLeaf: Others? Maybe. This is the first suggestion I made yesterday:
quote:We would all be self-conscious showering in front of a stranger of the opposite sex because we don't want them to see us naked. Because we have something that they don't and we don't want them to see it. But what if we all used the same changerooms and the showers had doors, and we'd walk out wearing a towel, and if we so desired we could change in individual cubicles...I just think that completely separate facilities for men and women only adds to a focusing on the differences between men and women, rather than looking at how similar they are for the most part (genitals aside).
I'm not advocating everyone seeing each other naked all the time. I'm just saying that having facilities that are designated to one sex or the other and strictly so adds to the divisive nature of how we view the sexes.
Actually I was referencing the comment you made just a few posts ago:
quote: I don't use sexual attraction as a basis for who I change with.
How, exactly, do you change with someone and not end up removing that towel?
-------------------- If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr Posts: 18428 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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By "change with" I mean change in the same change room. Not stand in the same cubicle and watch the other person change while naked.
-------------------- "For me, religion is like a rhinoceros: I don't have one, and I'd really prefer not to be trampled by yours. But it is impressive, and even beautiful, and, to be honest, the world would be slightly worse off if there weren't any." -Silas Sparkhammer Posts: 3239 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by GenYus: IIf we are seperating men and women based on just being men or women, then we are intimating that all women are of a type and all men are of a type and there is no crossover. This ignores the man who appreciates bodily noises being supressed and ignores the woman who wants to be able to let go and not have to smother what naturally comes out of her body.
Well-put. Not a pretty image , but well-put.
Hang on. I don't want to get too excited just in case I'm wrong...but...are Ryda and I on the same page?
Yup. Hear that sound? That's the hoofbeats of four very scary horsepeople.
-------------------- So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus: Posts: 3216 | From: Denver, CO | Registered: Dec 2005
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Actually, I would be more scared that Ryda and I agree.
-------------------- IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan Posts: 3694 | From: Arizona | Registered: Aug 2005
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I would be too uncomfortable with it if it happened now, and I do think that there are much more important things to take care of first. And that it is nothing like racism.![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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Wouldn't you?![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
