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Comment: I have a question regarding a story going around about the
Christian child psychologist Dr.Dobson. A friend of mine told me this
story of how his little dog Siggie ( named after Sigmund Freud) disobeyed
him and got beaten with a belt. Later on I Googled "James Dobson beats
dog" and found several sites that claim that this incident is
unfortunately true as it is in one of the chapters of his child rearing
books. If this is true then I would think anyone sane should not even
touch any of his so called "Christian" child rearing books with a ten foot
pole.

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Sara at home
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One of the people who reviewed Dr. James Dobson on Parenting* on Amazon writes:
quote:
Out of curiousity we picked up this book as it was referenced. One of the things that struck me was Dobson relates an encounter with his dog (a dachshund named 'siggie') to illustrate how to maintain/regain control. After reading that, I would not take Mr. Dobson's advice on anything and especially on that involving the gospel, and certainly that of rearing a child. His disgusting display over beating his dog to 'gain the upper hand' and control is simply sick. (Not even one star material except you need it to post a review.)
Someone with the book should be able to find it.

ETA: From RJ Reskow's blog on The Huffinton Post, the direct quote from the book:
quote:
I had seen this defiant mood before, and knew there was only one way to deal with it. The ONLY way to make Siggie obey is to threaten him with destruction. Nothing else works. I turned and went to my closet and got a small belt to help me "reason" with Mr. Freud …

What developed next is impossible to describe. That tiny dog and I had the most vicious fight ever staged between man and beast. I fought him up one wall and down the other, with both of us scratching and clawing and growling and swinging the belt.

ETA2: A correction and an even longer quote from The Bulldog Manifesto.
quote:
"Please don't misunderstand me. Siggie is a member of our family and we love him dearly. And despite his anarchistic nature, I have finally taught him to obey a few simple commands. However, we had some classic battles before he reluctantly yielded to my authority.

"The greatest confrontation occurred a few years ago when I had been in Miami for a three-day conference. I returned to observe that Siggie had become boss of the house while I was gone. But I didn't realize until later that evening just how strongly he felt about his new position as Captain.

"At eleven o'clock that night, I told Siggie to go get into his bed, which is a permanent enclosure in the family room. For six years I had given him that order at the end of each day, and for six years Siggie had obeyed.

"On this occasion, however, he refused to budge. You see, he was in the bathroom, seated comfortably on the furry lid of the toilet seat. That is his favorite spot in the house, because it allows him to bask in the warmth of a nearby electric heater..."

"When I told Sigmund to leave his warm seat and go to bed, he flattened his ears and slowly turned his head toward me. He deliberately braced himself by placing one paw on the edge of the furry lid, then hunched his shoulders, raised his lips to reveal the molars on both sides, and uttered his most threatening growl. That was Siggie's way of saying. "Get lost!"

"I had seen this defiant mood before, and knew there was only one way to deal with it. The ONLY way to make Siggie obey is to threaten him with destruction. Nothing else works. I turned and went to my closet and got a small belt to help me "reason" with Mr. Freud."

What developed next is impossible to describe. That tiny dog and I had the most vicious fight ever staged between man and beast. I fought him up one wall and down the other, with both of us scratching and clawing and growling and swinging the belt. I am embarrassed by the memory of the entire scene. Inch by inch I moved him toward the family room and his bed. As a final desperate maneuver, Siggie backed into the corner for one last snarling stand. I eventually got him to bed, only because I outweighed him 200 to 12!" -- The Strong Willed Child

*Wrong book, it's from The Strong Willed Child

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Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

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Sylvanz
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You know, I had a doctor for my kids for a while that recommended that book to me when I consulted with him about my younger son (that boy was a handful.) I read the thing and it truly made me feel ill. This man advocates beating kids. By this I mean he says that you should never hit a child with your hand something about only love should come from your hand blah blah, but you should hit them with belts, switches, hair brushes, etc. Like maybe the child doesn't know that the beating implement is in the hand of the person beating them? I wouldn't let this guy raise turnips.

P&LL, Syl

Anyone else think this review is parody?
quote:
Great Advice, the kids are all right, December 21, 2004
This book helped us tremendously, from the time she was born our now 14 month old was constantly crying, whining and difficult. Dr. Dobson's advice to follow God's will and enforce discipline made an almost instant impact on our daughter. Who would have thought that a small pat on the rear of our 3 month old would work so well? We continued this (some call it abuse) for most of the last year and she hardly ever makes a sound!
We now have a quiet little girl, who finally keeps to herself.
Now we need to find a book to stop her nightmares... Suggestions?

Syl

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Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. — Voltaire

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TheBobo
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quote:
Originally posted by Sara at home:
From RJ Reskow's blog on The Huffinton Post, the direct quote from the book:
quote:
..What developed next is impossible to describe. That tiny dog and I had the most vicious fight ever staged between man and beast. I fought him up one wall and down the other, with both of us scratching and clawing and growling and swinging the belt.

So let me get this straight. Siggie was also swinging the belt? That whole statement by Dobson is not only funny but absurd. Too bad Siggie didn't kick his ass.

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Sara at home
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I just hope the man never gets a taller dog, one that could bite his ass if not kick it.

What a man, used a belt to fight a dachshund and won. Such strength, such bravery......

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Mistletoey Chloe
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I hope he gets a *really* big dog.

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unklesamta
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I would like to introduce him to my dog. An American Stafforshire Terrier whom we rescued from a man that liked putting his cigarettes out on her, and I cannot even take my belt off around her or she will go nuts. I am guessing she had a bad experience with one once, and believe you me, I do not intend on finding out!

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The less you know, the more you believe. -Bono

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TrishDaDish
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My pound puppy, Rory the Wonder Dog, has "flashbacks" to previous owners, too. She's terrified of men's voices, and the first time we picked up a newspaper around her, she winced and bowed her head. I let her know that no newspaper would hurt her here, and let her rip it up (when we were done reading) as a form of therapy. She takes her aggresssion out on paper airplanes now. She'll grab one after it's landed, sit down, and somehow shred it, piece by piece, into thin strips, like a document shredder.

Yes, I have a goofy dog. But at least she knows she's loved in this house.

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Silas Sparkhammer
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The biggest dog I ever knew -- Great Dane/St. Bernard hybrid! -- had been owned by someone who beat him. Now, the sheer idiocy of beating any animal is staggering in itself, but to beat a dog that would grow up to be that size verges on the suicidal.

Fortunately (?) the dog's spirit was broken, and he was a big cowardly puppy all his life. Whenever anyone came to the door, he would try to hide under the bed (where he didn't fit!)

(I say "fortunately" because the other most common response would be for the dog to become vicious, which would be far more dangerous for everyone, including him.)

His name was "Bear." It was a very fitting name!

Silas

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ravynwriter
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This makes me ill. Anyone who has to take a weapon or even use their bare hands and resort to beating anything smaller and weaker than it, is someone who has lost total control. There are very calm ways to handle a defiant dog who is challenging you, and none of them involve a belt or thrashing the dog from one end of the house to the other.

As a daschshund owner, I'm disgusted and furious on so many levels.

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rocksong
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FWIW, Sara at home's quote is incomplete (i.e. a number of paragraphs are omitted). An apparently complete excerpt can be found at a Christian book site here:

http://shop.cwfa.org/cwfa/item_0842336222.htm&ct=Chapter_Excerpt

I don't think it changes the meaning much, but let the reader decide.

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Flaming June
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I have a cat that weighs about as much as Siggie did, and he bites and claws to boot. And when he doesn't want to go where I want him to go? I pick him up and move him. It's not difficult. I am bigger than he is, and he's less likely to kill me in my sleep after the fact.

(My cat, it should be noted, has a fully developed sense of revenge, and if I tried beating him with a belt, I would be armless.)

June

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Metaphors be with you!

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Sara at home
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quote:
Originally posted by rocksong:
FWIW, Sara at home's quote is incomplete (i.e. a number of paragraphs are omitted). An apparently complete excerpt can be found at a Christian book site here:

http://shop.cwfa.org/cwfa/item_0842336222.htm&ct=Chapter_Excerpt

I don't think it changes the meaning much, but let the reader decide.

Good find.

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Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

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Grand Illusion
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Remember that the plural of anecdote is not data. My suspicion is that the account in question is either exaggerated or fabricated, as authors of nonfiction books often have to bend the truth in anecdotes to illustrate the exact point they have. If you really read this, it sounds like he gave the dog one and only one "firm swat." We don't even know how hard that "firm" swat was...it could have been hard enough to break bones and cause internal bleeding, or it could have been a gentle pop only hard enough to make casual impact.

I'm not particularly fond of Dr. Dobson, but methinks that someone is circulating that story as a politically motivated attack on him. In the last few election seasons, I've seen many smear ads that spin the reputation of the opposition so they look as evil as possible.

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"Are you pondering what I'm pondering?" - The Brain

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Sara at home
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quote:
Originally posted by Grand Illusion:
Remember that the plural of anecdote is not data. My suspicion is that the account in question is either exaggerated or fabricated, as authors of nonfiction books often have to bend the truth in anecdotes to illustrate the exact point they have. If you really read this, it sounds like he gave the dog one and only one "firm swat." We don't even know how hard that "firm" swat was...it could have been hard enough to break bones and cause internal bleeding, or it could have been a gentle pop only hard enough to make casual impact.

I'm not particularly fond of Dr. Dobson, but methinks that someone is circulating that story as a politically motivated attack on him. In the last few election seasons, I've seen many smear ads that spin the reputation of the opposition so they look as evil as possible.

Then Dobson is a liar.

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Assume that all my posts will be edited at least once. Dyslexic -- can't spell, can't type, can't proofread.

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Ryda Wong, EBfCo.
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Anyone who needs to result to physical violence to "control" either human or dog is a pretty poor trainer.

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So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus:

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Barbara R.
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To begin with, no dog should ever be spanked with a belt! Of course in my family we believed in corporal punishment for pets as well as children. Our dogs were always spanked with either the hand or a rolled-up newspaper.

Barbara R.

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Grand Illusion
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quote:
Originally posted by Barbara R.:
To begin with, no dog should ever be spanked with a belt! Of course in my family we believed in corporal punishment for pets as well as children. Our dogs were always spanked with either the hand or a rolled-up newspaper.

Barbara R.

Interestingly enough, one of the things that Dobson has also said is that when a parent disciplines a child corporally, they need to do it with an object other than a hand, and use the same object every time. That way, when a child sees a parent raising their hand, they won't be confused as to whether a hug or a swat is coming. And when a child sees the parent fetching that object, the intent is clear and usually the parent won't have to follow through with anything. IIRC, Dobson also says that spanking should only be done on the bottom and only rarely in severe cases of blatant rebellion.

I think I spanked my dog three times or so in her life. She got into the habit of flinching when I would reach for her because she thought I was going to hit her, and I hated that because I wanted her to underdstand that I was going to pet her.

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"Are you pondering what I'm pondering?" - The Brain

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Lainie
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quote:
Originally posted by Grand Illusion:
Remember that the plural of anecdote is not data. My suspicion is that the account in question is either exaggerated or fabricated, as authors of nonfiction books often have to bend the truth in anecdotes to illustrate the exact point they have. If you really read this, it sounds like he gave the dog one and only one "firm swat." We don't even know how hard that "firm" swat was...it could have been hard enough to break bones and cause internal bleeding, or it could have been a gentle pop only hard enough to make casual impact.

The point he's bending the truth to illustrate is that it's acceptable for a human to beat a small dog. The very fact that he would exaggerate the story in such way says something quite nasty about his character, IMO.

quote:
I'm not particularly fond of Dr. Dobson, but methinks that someone is circulating that story as a politically motivated attack on him.
Circulating Dr. Dobson's own words is an attack? If his words smear him, he has no one to blame but himself.

quote:
In the last few election seasons, I've seen many smear ads that spin the reputation of the opposition so they look as evil as possible.
Attack ads are nothing new. Smears of political opponents are nothing new. And again, if circulating Dr. Dobson's own words makes him appear evil, that is his fault and no one else's.

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Ryda Wong, EBfCo.
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quote:
Originally posted by Grand Illusion:
quote:
Originally posted by Barbara R.:
To begin with, no dog should ever be spanked with a belt! Of course in my family we believed in corporal punishment for pets as well as children. Our dogs were always spanked with either the hand or a rolled-up newspaper.

Barbara R.

Interestingly enough, one of the things that Dobson has also said is that when a parent disciplines a child corporally, they need to do it with an object other than a hand, and use the same object every time. That way, when a child sees a parent raising their hand, they won't be confused as to whether a hug or a swat is coming. And when a child sees the parent fetching that object, the intent is clear and usually the parent won't have to follow through with anything. IIRC, Dobson also says that spanking should only be done on the bottom and only rarely in severe cases of blatant rebellion.

I think I spanked my dog three times or so in her life. She got into the habit of flinching when I would reach for her because she thought I was going to hit her, and I hated that because I wanted her to underdstand that I was going to pet her.

I've trained hundreds of dogs, some to pretty high performance levels. I've NEVER had to result to spaking or hitting them. NEVER. If you have to hit your dog to communticate with them, you don't need a dog. Personally, I feel the same
about children.

And, from personal experience, Dobson is full of shit. It didn't make a damned bit of difference if my parents were beating me with a belt or with a hand. The fear resulted either way, just like it did in your dog. And, not to mention, belts can do a whole hell of a lot of damage. Trust me on that one.

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So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus:

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Morrigan
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We spank our dogs. Mess in the house, you get spanked once and told that you're a "bad dog" and then put right outside. With a puppy, you just get told "bad dog" and put outside. But with the adult dog that did it (and had apt opportunity to go), you get spanked.

I've also hit both Jock (the one I had put down last year) and Miss Molly, due to them biting me when I fed them treats. Hit them both across the nose, hard, told "no" and then to "go lay down."

I've been training, breeding etc dogs for more than a decade, and I've had no problems with my training methods.

I also don't have a problem with spanking children. But that's another opinion for another thread.

Morrigan

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Ryda Wong, EBfCo.
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Morrigan:
We spank our dogs. Mess in the house, you get spanked once and told that you're a "bad dog" and then put right outside. With a puppy, you just get told "bad dog" and put outside. But with the adult dog that did it (and had apt opportunity to go), you get spanked.

I've also hit both Jock (the one I had put down last year) and Miss Molly, due to them biting me when I fed them treats. Hit them both across the nose, hard, told "no" and then to "go lay down."

I've been training, breeding etc dogs for more than a decade, and I've had no problems with my training methods.

I also don't have a problem with spanking children. But that's another opinion for another thread.

Morrigan

I've seen these training methods work. I just don't think they are necessary. For example, a grave tone of voice with Jake sends him tail and ears down into apology mode. And he usually does not repeat errors.


I've really had no behavior problems (other than general stupidity) result from a no physical correction approach. Then again, my speciality was dogs with confidence issues....

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So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus:

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Morrigan
Happy Holly Days


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When I trained my friends dog, she had a confidence issue also. With her, we just used "that tone."

With the one's I've got now, it's one spank followed by being put outside.

I mean, if it's something they couldn't help, like having the runs, they just get cleaned up, given medicane and put in one of the outdoor kennels until they're better.

But they are completely housebroken. Lizz did it just to test us. Dominance issues.

Morrigan

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"The woods are lovely, dark and deep. But I have promises to keep, And miles to go before I sleep, And miles to go before I sleep." Robert Frost, Stopping by the Woods on a Snowy Evening

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PrincessLeia
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Somewhat coincidently, my church started a new series of evening lectures last night. Every Sunday, we will be watching part of his 'Essentials of Discipline' series of videos. Last night's episode was an introduction, so it wasn't too controversial. It basically stated why discipline is necessary, and that parents need to balance love with control.
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