posted
Where did this phrase come from? I'd always assumed there was something similar in one of the versions of the Bible, but I haven't been able to find anything.
-------------------- "For the U.S. to get involved militarily in determining the outcome of the struggle over who's going to govern Iraq strikes me as a classic definition of a quagmire." ~Dick Cheney. Posts: 747 | From: Kansas | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
It's not in the Bible in those words; that is more of a summary. Like "God helps those who help themselves" and "Do not go swimming until 30 minutes after eating," "Love the sinner, hate the sin" comes from what we seminary students call "4 Hezekiah," our dumping ground for trite sayings nowhere in the canon.
Avril
-------------------- There is no failure unless one stops. --Ray Bradbury Posts: 2115 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Aug 2002
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Canuckistan
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posted
quote:Originally posted by Avril: It's not in the Bible in those words; that is more of a summary. Like "God helps those who help themselves"
Nitpick: Isn't "God helps those who help themselves" really "The gods help those who help themselves"? Coming from Aesop, it would have little to do with Christianity, so it wouldn't really be a summary of the Bible as much as it would be a misquote.
-------------------- People need to stop appropriating Jesus as their reason for behaving badly. It's so irritating. (Avril) Posts: 8429 | From: New York run by the Swiss (Toronto) | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
It's actually from St. Augustine. His letter 211 (c. 424) contains the phrase Cum dilectione hominum et odio vitiorum, which translates roughly as "With love for mankind and hatred of sins."
The phrase has become more famous expressed as "Love the sinner but hate the sin" or "Hate the sin and not the sinner" (the latter form appearing in Mohandas Gandhi's 1929 autobiography).
-------------------- "For the U.S. to get involved militarily in determining the outcome of the struggle over who's going to govern Iraq strikes me as a classic definition of a quagmire." ~Dick Cheney. Posts: 747 | From: Kansas | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Avril: It's not in the Bible in those words; that is more of a summary. Like "God helps those who help themselves"
Nitpick: Isn't "God helps those who help themselves" really "The gods help those who help themselves"? Coming from Aesop, it would have little to do with Christianity, so it wouldn't really be a summary of the Bible as much as it would be a misquote.
"Love the sinner, hate the sin" was the summary; "God helps those who help themselves" is just another of several things people think are in the Bible--and aren't. I recall, for example, two girls railing against Christians for not following their own Bible and not acknowledging that "God helps those who helps themselves." "What, did they forget about that verse?" Girl A said to Girl B, whilst I rolled my eyes at a nearby table in the cafe...
I dare say "God helps those who help themselves" is somewhat outside the spirit of the Bible's message--more that God helps those who realize they cannot help themselves.
Avril
-------------------- There is no failure unless one stops. --Ray Bradbury Posts: 2115 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Aug 2002
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Canuckistan
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posted
quote:I recall, for example, two girls railing against Christians for not following their own Bible and not acknowledging that "God helps those who helps themselves." "What, did they forget about that verse?" Girl A said to Girl B, whilst I rolled my eyes at a nearby table in the cafe...
And you didn't say, "Cite, please" ? I'm disappointed, Avril.
-------------------- People need to stop appropriating Jesus as their reason for behaving badly. It's so irritating. (Avril) Posts: 8429 | From: New York run by the Swiss (Toronto) | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Avril: I dare say "God helps those who help themselves" is somewhat outside the spirit of the Bible's message--more that God helps those who realize they cannot help themselves.
Avril
The message I always got from the NT was that folks should be focused on helping others, not themselves. Which makes sense, since if everybody went around helping others, help would always be available to those who need it.
Nonny
-------------------- When there isn't anything else worth analyzing, we examine our collective navel. I found thirty-six cents in change in mine the other day. Let no one say that there is no profit in philosophy. -- Silas Sparkhammer Posts: 10141 | From: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: Apr 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Avril: I dare say "God helps those who help themselves" is somewhat outside the spirit of the Bible's message--more that God helps those who realize they cannot help themselves.
Avril
The message I always got from the NT was that folks should be focused on helping others, not themselves. Which makes sense, since if everybody went around helping others, help would always be available to those who need it.
Nonny
"God helps those who help themselves" means that when people pray for help in a situation, God will usually answer that prayer by providing a means the person can use to get themselves out of the situation rather than just zapping the situation away. If I pray because I don't have enough money to pay the rent, God is more likely to answer that prayer by providing a special opportunity to get cheaper accomodations if I make the effort to go apartment hunting than he is to answer it by magically making a bag full of money appear.
-------------------- There are 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary and those who do not.
"Are you pondering what I'm pondering?" - The Brain Posts: 587 | From: Colorado | Registered: Jul 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Avril: I dare say "God helps those who help themselves" is somewhat outside the spirit of the Bible's message--more that God helps those who realize they cannot help themselves.
Avril
The message I always got from the NT was that folks should be focused on helping others, not themselves. Which makes sense, since if everybody went around helping others, help would always be available to those who need it.
Nonny
Oh, that too. That's a very good point. See why you shouldn't try to summarize things in trite sayings? People always come along to point out that you missed the boat. But I suppose I meant something more along the lines of the more direct divine intervention, rather than divine intervention through God's children, with the comment about when God helps people. Knowing how it feels to be helpless, however, can provoke the desire to help others. This is far too complex for a single sentence. I'm going to have to think more on this.
Meanwhile, Canuck, I wasn't supposed to be listening, you know--I was alone attempting to study in the cafe while these girls were in a table next to me speaking all sorts of drivel. I maintained my decorum by not involving myself in a conversation in which I was not a part. But not rolling my eyes? Well, that would be too much to ask! I doubt they saw me, though. They were too involved in their own stuff.
Avril
-------------------- There is no failure unless one stops. --Ray Bradbury Posts: 2115 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Grand Illusion: "God helps those who help themselves" means that when people pray for help in a situation, God will usually answer that prayer by providing a means the person can use to get themselves out of the situation rather than just zapping the situation away. If I pray because I don't have enough money to pay the rent, God is more likely to answer that prayer by providing a special opportunity to get cheaper accomodations if I make the effort to go apartment hunting than he is to answer it by magically making a bag full of money appear.
That's why I pray to Saint Blackjack...he's much more likely to deliver the bag of money.
-------------------- "The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." - G.K. Chesterton Posts: 1514 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: May 2005
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Canuckistan
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posted
quote:I maintained my decorum by not involving myself in a conversation in which I was not a part.
Decorum is highly overrated.
-------------------- People need to stop appropriating Jesus as their reason for behaving badly. It's so irritating. (Avril) Posts: 8429 | From: New York run by the Swiss (Toronto) | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Grand Illusion: "God helps those who help themselves" means that when people pray for help in a situation, God will usually answer that prayer by providing a means the person can use to get themselves out of the situation rather than just zapping the situation away. If I pray because I don't have enough money to pay the rent, God is more likely to answer that prayer by providing a special opportunity to get cheaper accomodations if I make the effort to go apartment hunting than he is to answer it by magically making a bag full of money appear.
That's why I pray to Saint Blackjack...he's much more likely to deliver the bag of money.
Luck is a lady whose smile is as cold as a stone She'll bring you things, many things you might never have known But when your die is cast she'll have the final laugh at you She'll lock you in a duel, where you come out the fool
CHORUS Beware of the Queen of Spades Her black widow's curse might find you yet Beware of a love that you will regret Her love means only your death
(Do I get a bonus for creative use of smileys?)
-------------------- There are 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary and those who do not.
"Are you pondering what I'm pondering?" - The Brain Posts: 587 | From: Colorado | Registered: Jul 2000
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quote: Either the gods have no power or they have power. If they have no power, why do you pray to them? But if they have power, why do you not pray for deliverance from the fear or the desire or the pain, which a thing causes, rather than pray that any of these things should or should not happen? For certainly if they can help at all, they can help to this end. But perhaps you will say that the gods have placed all that in my own power. Well, then, is it not better to use what is in your power like a free man than to desire in a slavish and abject way what is not in your power? And who has told you that the gods do not aid us even in the things which are in our power? Begin then to pray for such things, and you will see. One man prays to be able to lie with a certain woman; rather should he pray to be freed of desire for her. Another prays to be rid of his enemy; he should pray against wanting to be rid of him. Instead of praying that you may not lose your little one, pray for the release from fear. Turn your prayers this way, and see what comes.
--Logoboros
-------------------- "If Men were Wise, the Most arbitrary Princes could not hurt them. If they are not wise, the Freest Government is compelld to be a Tyranny."
quote:Originally posted by Logoboros: I'm fond of Marcus Aurelius' take on this:
quote: Either the gods have no power or they have power. If they have no power, why do you pray to them? But if they have power, why do you not pray for deliverance from the fear or the desire or the pain, which a thing causes, rather than pray that any of these things should or should not happen? For certainly if they can help at all, they can help to this end. But perhaps you will say that the gods have placed all that in my own power. Well, then, is it not better to use what is in your power like a free man than to desire in a slavish and abject way what is not in your power? And who has told you that the gods do not aid us even in the things which are in our power? Begin then to pray for such things, and you will see. One man prays to be able to lie with a certain woman; rather should he pray to be freed of desire for her. Another prays to be rid of his enemy; he should pray against wanting to be rid of him. Instead of praying that you may not lose your little one, pray for the release from fear. Turn your prayers this way, and see what comes.
--Logoboros
Succinctly, pray not for lighter burdens, but for stronger backs.
-------------------- There are 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary and those who do not.
"Are you pondering what I'm pondering?" - The Brain Posts: 587 | From: Colorado | Registered: Jul 2000
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