posted
So way back in early sixties Picasso created this painting of a king. Many years later, a limited edition lithograph of this painting was made, 500 all together, all of them numbered. At some point some or all of these lithographs were signed and authenticated. They are currently valued at a modest $2500-$10,000 signed.
One of these lithographs hung in my Grandmother's house all my life. Up until very recently, I could never find any record of the lithograph or painting anywhere including in the vast catalogs of the Picasso project.
So moving on the story with my associate quandry. I loved this lithograph all my life, even before I realized that it was a Picasso and long before I realized it was a limited edition, signed Picasso. Recognizing my love for this print, my Grandmother promised it to me repeatedly and in front of many witnesses. Her only caveat was that she wasn't planning on giving anything to here other grand kids, so she was going to officially leave it to my father with the understanding that he would give it to me.
To make a long story shorter, upon my grandmother's death my father and stepmother flew back to Indiana and had the Picasso packed and shipped back to California before they even told me grandma had passed on. I have been promised it at some inderminate time in the future though my father won't even agree to give it to me in his will (his current wife is 10 years younger than he is). This is a sore spot that has soured our relationship though I don't even mention it anymore as they know how I feel.
This lithograph has a lot of sentimental value for me so I'm always trying to find some other information on it. Ideally, I would love to buy a poster of it, but I can't even find any record of the orignal painting, so this is difficult. Until just this morning when I googled the American translation of the paintings name (something I've done many times before), and ding. There's a guy out west, a dealer in things other than art, who has come into the possesion of another signed lithograph of this painting. He's selling it for just a few thousand dollars.
It really want it, but I'm worried about two things. First of all, I don't really want this nearly as badly as I want to one that my grandmother had hanging in her house, and I worry that my father will see it and decide that I don't need two of them. Second, and related, I worry that my motivation is out of spite rather than desire for my own version of this lithograph.
posted
I don't have any advice at the moment, but please let me offer my sympathies for your loss. Also, I'm sorry that your father is not honoring both your and your grandmother's wishes.
-------------------- Officially Heartless Posts: 3065 | From: The Montgomery County of the West Coast- Berkeley, CA | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Couldn't you take the print down and put it away when you knew your father was coming to visit?
-------------------- "You hold the Prince so I can duct tape his bottom to keep the bugs out." - My Mom Posts: 193 | From: The Fabulous Finger Lakes, New York | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:To make a long story shorter, upon my grandmother's death my father and stepmother flew back to Indiana and had the Picasso packed and shipped back to California before they even told me grandma had passed on.
quote:There's a guy out west, a dealer in things other than art, who has come into the possesion of another signed lithograph of this painting. He's selling it for just a few thousand dollars.
Not the same one is it? Do you know the number of the one your parents absconded with? Might be worth double checking.
I'm not sure what to tell you other than that. I think the thing you want is not a copy but the one in your grandmother's house, not because it is a Picasso but because it was hers and of the memories you have of it. I'm not sure a copy is going to fill the hole that has been left. In fact, having your own copy may just make the bitterness worse, as you'll have a daily reminder of the rift.
I know you say you don't mention it anymore with your father but have you ever tried to find out why exactly they did this? Is it out of sheer greed or is there something deeper involved? Why does he want it so badly he'd risk the relationship with his own son?
I know this has bothered you for some time because it's not the first time you've spoken of it. I hope that you can find some way to move yourself past it. I know it's hard and may be impossible. But it doesn't sound like a healthy thing to hold on to this hurt for so long. Ask yourself what your grandmother would think about it all and what she'd say to you. Maybe that will provide some clarity.
Oh and a practical piece of advice in reference to the dude out west. If it's that valuable and he's selling it far below market value, be aware of counterfeits. Never trust too good of a deal.
Gibbie
-------------------- If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate. Posts: 3993 | From: Indiana | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
Gibbie, I thought the same thing. I wonder if it's your Grandma's Picasso that art dealer is selling. Just wanted to echo that.
I'm sorry to hear that you are going through this Beach. There were some things of my Grandma's that I was set on having. They were mostly just photos, but I had so many memories associated with them...
-------------------- "How do you make chocolate? You take dark chocolate, you mix it with white milk, and it becomes a delicious drink. That is the chocolate I am talking about." --Ray Nagin Posts: 1325 | From: Missouri | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:To make a long story shorter, upon my grandmother's death my father and stepmother flew back to Indiana and had the Picasso packed and shipped back to California before they even told me grandma had passed on.
quote:There's a guy out west, a dealer in things other than art, who has come into the possesion of another signed lithograph of this painting. He's selling it for just a few thousand dollars.
Not the same one is it? Do you know the number of the one your parents absconded with? Might be worth double checking.
I don't know yet, though I thought of this already. That and the possibility that it's been a fake all along. Knowing my father and step-mother as well as I do, I took the time to extensively photo-document the print. I plan to have a look at those photos when I get home. I do not think it's the same one since my dad has an exagerated idea as to how much it's worth.
quote:Originally posted by Gibbie: I'm not sure what to tell you other than that. I think the thing you want is not a copy but the one in your grandmother's house, not because it is a Picasso but because it was hers and of the memories you have of it. I'm not sure a copy is going to fill the hole that has been left. In fact, having your own copy may just make the bitterness worse, as you'll have a daily reminder of the rift.
Which is at the heart of my concern over this issue. I don't really want to lay out the money only to have it em-bitter me all the more.
quote:Originally posted by Gibbie: I know you say you don't mention it anymore with your father but have you ever tried to find out why exactly they did this? Is it out of sheer greed or is there something deeper involved? Why does he want it so badly he'd risk the relationship with his own son?
Yes, we've talked about it on numerous occaisons. He feels (and my step mother is all over agreeing with him) that grandma never stated a timeframe for when I should get it. And he refused to tell me his plans.
I can tell you that my best guess, and that of my brothers, it's about greed and status. He couldn't possibly let me have what he thinks is a $10,000 print by Picasso hanging on my wall. He's told me that they hung it in their living room (where it's got to stand out like a sore thumb) and brag about to all their friends. That's the way they are, never missing an opportunity to point out how expensive something is. At least something they own.
His additude and that of his wife is that they're not risking the relationship with me, they're doing what they legally can do. If I decide to get pissy and not talk to them, it's me that has the problem. They have yet to notice that I refuse to set foot in their house as long as my painting is hanging on the wall. I think it's been 2-3 years now.
quote:Originally posted by Gibbie: I know this has bothered you for some time because it's not the first time you've spoken of it. I hope that you can find some way to move yourself past it. I know it's hard and may be impossible. But it doesn't sound like a healthy thing to hold on to this hurt for so long. Ask yourself what your grandmother would think about it all and what she'd say to you. Maybe that will provide some clarity.
Yeah, I know how my grandmother would have felt about it. I try not to dwell on it too much, but every once in a while it comes to the surface and I boil a little bit. My biggest issue is that I just want it to remind me of my grand mother and her house, while my dad wants it because it's valuable.
quote:Originally posted by Gibbie: Oh and a practical piece of advice in reference to the dude out west. If it's that valuable and he's selling it far below market value, be aware of counterfeits. Never trust too good of a deal...
I've thought of that too. I don't think that's the case as he doesn't sell anything else even in this category. We talked for quite some time about it, but I plan to get more details about how he acquired it before moving ahead. I don't honestly think that if someone was going to counterfeit a Picasso they'd ever chose this one. Oh, and it's not way below market value, it's at the lower end of market value. Picassos can surprisingly be had for some very reasonable prices.
posted
Maybe not the perfect solution, but perhaps you could buy the one in California and trade with your Dad.
-------------------- "A horse may be coaxed to drink, but a pencil must be lead" - Stan Laurel Posts: 249 | From: Dallas | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
Can you purchase this one and trade your father for it? If he's more interested in the dollar value than the fact that it was your Grandmother's, it shouldn't make a difference to him but it does to you.
Why are they between $2500 and $10000? Is it because of the numbers?
ETA- Spanked by Stan the Man!
-------------------- "The only thing a non-conformist hates more than a conformist is a non-conformist who does not adhere to the current standards of non-conformity." - found on a coffeehouse bathroom wall Posts: 55 | From: Chandler, AZ | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
Buying and trading is an option. I have a feeling he wouldn't go for it, but can't place my finger on why. It does give me food for thought.
I should be clear on the pricing, we can only get pricing on similar pieces since up until now there has never been available a second lithograph of the same painting. This particular series of Picasso lithographs have been known to sell within that price range.
Specific pricing is also affected by condition, whether it's signed and authenticated and the quality and nature of the framing.
Beach...but to me the one at my father's house is priceless...Life!
posted
Exactly my thought as I was reading this. Call your dad and see if he'd be willing to swap if you buy the other one. That might even help you to find out if he's selling the one that belonged to your Grandmother. I'm sorry you're going through this stuff. It seems that there's usually one jackass in every family. (Not you, him!) *hugs*
-------------------- "This air we're breathing. Oxygen, isn't it?"~I’mNotDedalus, impersonating Vincent D’Onofrio.|"Sometimes trying to communicate can be like walking through a minefield."~wanderwoman "Give people a break. It's not easy doing a life."~Joshua Halberstam Posts: 4020 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
I'd wager a guess that it's more his father's insensitivity than it is the lithograph...
-------------------- "I reject your reality and substitue my own!" - Adam Savage, Mythbusters Posts: 411 | From: Indiana | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
Aud, I can't speak for BeachLife, but I would imagine it's not just the piece of paper, but his father's actions that are the problem.
ETA: Spanked by kingfan
-------------------- Me: "He's 19? Uh oh, I bought him a beer." A: "You contributed to the deliquency of a minor in drag!" "Sweet spell check: keeping drunks off the radar since 1995."- IND GodRe-AnimateGreenPorkBush Posts: 3986 | From: Illinois, jealous? | Registered: Nov 2005
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guruwan2b
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
It doesn't matter if it is a piece of paper, a ring, a vase, or a Dale Earnhart plate. Beach's grandmother wanted him to have it. Stated so in front of his father. The only reason she left it to his father (to leave to him) was that she didn't have anything that she wanted to leave to the other grandkids. So in her mind she saw the print going to Beach, not hanging in his father's house with no plans of when it will go to Beach. I would be hurt if one of my parents did that to me.
-------------------- Too much of this navel gazing and we'll disappear up our own arses. Danvers Carew Posts: 7465 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
You are both assigning that piece of paper more than it's worth - be it money or sentimentality.
Stuff shouldn't stand between people. If you choose to let it go he might drop his power stuggle too.
Hey, I don't get along with my father at all but recoginize it's about his behavior. He threatented to cut me out of his will and I just laughed. I don't let him have that kind of power over me.
Look, I studied art. I get that people can put a great deal of value into art either because they think it's pretty or because other people do. I have also seen people fill their house with sentimental items that remind them of dead relatives. They can't move or function in the present because of these mementos.
Posts: 1168 | From: Missouri | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by guruwan2b: It doesn't matter if it is a piece of paper, a ring, a vase, or a Dale Earnhart plate. Beach's grandmother wanted him to have it. Stated so in front of his father. The only reason she left it to his father (to leave to him) was that she didn't have anything that she wanted to leave to the other grandkids. So in her mind she saw the print going to Beach, not hanging in his father's house with no plans of when it will go to Beach. I would be hurt if one of my parents did that to me.
Thanks for stating it better than I can. To me, it is a tangible link to my grandmother that was taken away because it has some other value to my father.
And just in case I haven't said it yet, my father was left with all kind of heirlooms and items he hand picked for their memories. This Picasso has never part of it, and has no memories for him.
quote:originally posted by Aud You are both assigning that piece of paper more than it's worth - be it money or sentimentality.
Stuff shouldn't stand between people. If you choose to let it go he might drop his power stuggle too.
Hey, I don't get along with my father at all but recoginize it's about his behavior. He threatented to cut me out of his will and I just laughed. I don't let him have that kind of power over me.
Look, I studied art. I get that people can put a great deal of value into art either because they think it's pretty or because other people do. I have also seen people fill their house with sentimental items that remind them of dead relatives. They can't move or function in the present because of these mementos.
But why should Beach "let it go" when his father is the one who wronged him, and his own mother's wishes in the first place?
ETA:quote
-------------------- Me: "He's 19? Uh oh, I bought him a beer." A: "You contributed to the deliquency of a minor in drag!" "Sweet spell check: keeping drunks off the radar since 1995."- IND GodRe-AnimateGreenPorkBush Posts: 3986 | From: Illinois, jealous? | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Aud: You are both assigning that piece of paper more than it's worth - be it money or sentimentality.
Stuff shouldn't stand between people. If you choose to let it go he might drop his power stuggle too.
Hey, I don't get along with my father at all but recoginize it's about his behavior. He threatented to cut me out of his will and I just laughed. I don't let him have that kind of power over me.
Look, I studied art. I get that people can put a great deal of value into art either because they think it's pretty or because other people do. I have also seen people fill their house with sentimental items that remind them of dead relatives. They can't move or function in the present because of these mementos.
I honestly can't tell whether you're not making sense, don't know what you are talking about or both...
posted
I don't let my relatives use material possessions to control me. Is that clear?
Posts: 1168 | From: Missouri | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Neither do I, but my grandparents/parents still have things that I want to have due to the memories associated with them.
You don't have anything from grandparents, relatives, friends that have memories, Aud?
If not, I find that odd. And vaguely wrong.
Morrigan
-------------------- "The woods are lovely, dark and deep. But I have promises to keep, And miles to go before I sleep, And miles to go before I sleep." Robert Frost, Stopping by the Woods on a Snowy Evening Posts: 1701 | From: Michigan | Registered: Mar 2001
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Rhiandmoi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
quote:Originally posted by candiru from strangers: But why should Beach "let it go" when his father is the one who wronged him, and his own mother's wishes in the first place?
Because the only person that he can control is himself.
-------------------- I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.
Funny thing; you apparently don't do anything to have a good relationship with your dad, but you seem to think I should forget my father's theft of something my grandmother wanted me have to stay in good standing with my father. Hmm, still sounds like you are either making no sense or don't know what you're talking about.
quote:Originally posted by candiru from strangers: But why should Beach "let it go" when his father is the one who wronged him, and his own mother's wishes in the first place?
Because the only person that he can control is himself.
I had meant this in response to Aud's comment that "stuff shouldn't get between people", and I've since added her quote.
What I mean to say is that it's his father's behaviour that is a problem, but just the lithograph.
-------------------- Me: "He's 19? Uh oh, I bought him a beer." A: "You contributed to the deliquency of a minor in drag!" "Sweet spell check: keeping drunks off the radar since 1995."- IND GodRe-AnimateGreenPorkBush Posts: 3986 | From: Illinois, jealous? | Registered: Nov 2005
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ComicBookGeek
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales
posted
Sounds like Aud is asking Beach to roll over and piss away his own feelings.
"Yes, I screwed you son, but I'm your father and you should worship me"
posted
Aud, the sort of relative who would steal an heirloom from his own child for status, and deny his son something that means the world to him and symbolizes love for his grandmother? Not so much the sort of person one could have a positive relationship with just by forgiving the slight, I would think.
If he cares so little for the feelings of his own mother and son, surely the father would feel free to wound the son in other ways than through mementos as well, given the chance?
In my experience, people who try to control you through things are not nice people in general. Nothing you can do will stop them from being mean, you can only control how much access they have to your life.
Posts: 2115 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
If it weren't for this one issue would you have a sterling relationship with your father Beachlife? If this is the only thing keeping you two apart then that's just plain wrong and you should let it go. If you and your father have many other problems then this issue is way beyond the possession of a lithograph. Seek counseling. I certainly don't see spending a few thousand dollars to recreate a connection with your late grandmother.
Morrigan - I have knick knacks from both sets of grandparents. Sentimental items but nothing I'd wrestle my cousins for. I don't need much else. It's just more to dust.
Posts: 1168 | From: Missouri | Registered: Oct 2005
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Rhiandmoi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
quote:Originally posted by BeachLife: Who's being controlled?
Funny thing; you apparently don't do anything to have a good relationship with your dad, but you seem to think I should forget my father's theft of something my grandmother wanted me have to stay in good standing with my father. Hmm, still sounds like you are either making no sense or don't know what you're talking about.
I don't know if you are talking to me or not. But you are the one that is being eaten up inside over not having this exact lithograph. You don't want to get the other one because it will make you more and more bitter about the one you don't have. I think you should let go for yourself. I don't care if you ever see your father or his living room again. But you shouldn't let an object hold this much power over you. What if there was a fire and it burnt up and was gone forever? You can't do anything about your father not giving you what is rightfully yours, but you can decide to keep your happy memories of this painting and not be bitter every time you think about it.
-------------------- I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.
posted
I wonder if having the same print (albeit not the one in your gm's house) would still serve to remind you of your gm in a good way. I know my mother purchased a particular coffee cup in an antique store that was the same kind that her father had used. It wasn't the same as his (obviously), but it still brings her good thoughts when she uses it.
-------------------- "My name is the symbol for my identity and must not be lost." Motto of the Lucy Stone League. Posts: 1815 | From: Pennsylvania | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Lydia Oh Lydia: I wonder if having the same print (albeit not the one in your gm's house) would still serve to remind you of your gm in a good way. I know my mother purchased a particular coffee cup in an antique store that was the same kind that her father had used. It wasn't the same as his (obviously), but it still brings her good thoughts when she uses it.
That was gonna be my advice too.
BeachLife: how about a reduced-size reproduction of it -- say, a framed 8X10 that you keep in your bedroom or something like that -- where you can be cheered by the good associations you have with it.
This might involve a little "self-hypnosis." You'd have to make sure that you were doing it for the good reasons, not the bad reasons.
You have emotional conflicts here (don't we all?) that are obviously troubling to you. In a pragmatic sense, you have to decide what is most important to you: the good feelings you have, or the bad feelings you have. If it were as simple as that, we'd all be in paradise. (If clinical depression could be cured simply by saying, "Cheer up!")
And yet, to this degree, I am with Aud on this: you are placing conditions on your own happiness, specifically relating to a material object of relatively minor worth. It really is "just a piece of paper" in the ultimate moral sense: the memories of your youth and of your Grandmother in happier times are what are precious beyond all the artworks in the Louvre.
Anyway, that's my opinion, worth every penny you've paid for it!
Silas
Posts: 16801 | From: San Diego, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Aud: If it weren't for this one issue would you have a sterling relationship with your father Beachlife? If this is the only thing keeping you two apart then that's just plain wrong and you should let it go. If you and your father have many other problems then this issue is way beyond the possession of a lithograph. Seek counseling. I certainly don't see spending a few thousand dollars to recreate a connection with your late grandmother.
Morrigan - I have knick knacks from both sets of grandparents. Sentimental items but nothing I'd wrestle my cousins for. I don't need much else. It's just more to dust.
Where ever did you get the idea that if it weren't for this incident I would have a sterling relationship with my father? Why is it you think anything is keeping us apart?
I said I refuse to enter his house while the painting is hanging there. I've seen my dad several times since then, I just won't visit his house in California.
You really need to think about what he did, and then add to it the fact that the item that he decieved his mother about and hijacked from me is hanging over the mantle as a kind of trophy. Yes, I'm letting him control me by not walking into his house to look at his sick little trophy every time I turn around.
I'm also not sure where anyone gets the idea I'm being eaten up insider over it. As I said before every once in a while it bubbles to the top and bothers me. As it should, its a pretty ugly symbol of how my father puts things above the relationships with his sons.
Rhiandmoi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
But you aren't letting him have his things. You are angry and hurt over the things. If he has always been like this, maybe you need to start saying to yourself "that's just the way he is" and letting go. He's not going to give you the painting. He's probably not going to trade you paintings. He's going to keep the painting until he dies, then his wife is going to keep it until she dies. Hopefully you'll live long enough to see it again, since you won't go visit it in their living room, you're going to be waiting a long while.
-------------------- I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.
posted
Aud and Rhi, at the risk of being accused of a poor analogy, would you be giving the same advice to someone who was trying to retrieve a piece of art stolen during WWII? From what I have heard and read, for a lot of these people, the only value that matters is sentimental, and they are not willing to settle for a reproduction or for letting someone else hold onto what they feel is rightfully theirs.
Beach wants the print that hung in his grandmother's house. It just so happens to be worth some money. If it were to be appraised tomorrow and found to be a worthless fake, he would still want it and treasure it just the same.
Every now and then beach gets mad over the fact that his father and stepmother have the print because of its value, not because of its sentiment (I suspect he would feel better about his father having it if he felt it was being treasured for its link to grandma, not its link to Picasso). I think this is fine. He's letting off steam in a healthy way, by ranting here. He's controlling the situation by making sure he doesn't see the print where it will get him upset (in his father's house). He's not plotting revenge or agonizing over the unfairness of it all every minute or even every day. He doesn't need to let the hurt go, just not let it control his life. I think he's got that covered.
Beach, you could sound your dad out about the print swap, but I don't think he'll go for it. He'll probably be convinced the other one is inferior to what he has, even if you had professional appraisers tell himn otherwise. And because you want it and he's a jerk like that.
-------------------- Like every good third-in-a-series it contains a whole load of ewoks, ‘Clubber’ Lang, whey-faced Sophia Coppola, Sean Connery as the Pirate Captain’s estranged dad, a crappy CGI alien, and Richard Pryor on a donkey. -- Gideon Defoe Posts: 2211 | From: Harford County, MD | Registered: Oct 2005
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Rhiandmoi
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
I would give the same advice to someone that was trying to retrieve lost artwork if they were meeting the same resistance that Beach is reaching. If they had no paperwork listing them as the rightful owner, it's not legally theirs. It might be rightfully theirs, but try convincing the legal owner of that.
-------------------- I think that hyperbole is the single greatest factor contributing to the decline of society. - My friend Pat.
posted
Just because someone posts about something and the thread is all about that, doesn't mean it's the only thing they can think about.
Beach, I understand a little how you feel-- I was promised my grandma's emerald ring (we share that as a birthstone), but it somehow disappeared while she was in the hospital for the last time. I have yet to see it on any relative's finger, though, so at least I haven't had to face a shock of betrayal like that. Your father and stepmother have done an extremely scummy thing here. I'm sorry you have to deal with it.
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