posted
Did anyone see that cracking new BBC programme 'Balderdash and Piffle'? It is asking for viewers help on finding the first written evidence for words and phrases. The programme on 2nd January looked at words and phrases beginning with 'P'.
Specifically they need help with 'pear-shaped' and 'gay' (I know it doesn't beginning with 'P', but I am not the show's producer).
The BBC and OED can find nothing earlier than 1985 for 'pear-shaped' or 1935 for 'gay' (in its homosexual sense). Can any Snopester do better?
The programme has already scored a success with a written example of the phrase 'ploughman's lunch' dating from 1960 whereas the OED only had the date 1970. The OED website has already been updated (apparently).
-------------------- Andrew, Ware, England Posts: 1709 | From: Ware, England | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
"Gay" was included in the programme as an offshoot of "polari".
Having been to the BBC website I can't believe that there is no evidence of "bouncy castle" before 1986 - there must be funfair and village fete flyers around from before this time! How strange!
-------------------- I want you to lay down your life, Perkins. We need a futile gesture at this stage. It will raise the whole tone of the war. Posts: 4495 | From: Surrey, UK | Registered: Jun 2000
| IP: Logged |
Or perhaps you can find even earlier evidence on the following list than other Wordhunters have come up with so far?
back to square one* [1960] balti* [1984] Beeb [1967] boffin* [1941] bomber jacket [1973] chattering classes [1985] codswallop* [1963] Crimble [1963] cyberspace [1982] cyborg [1960] ditsy* [1978] dosh* [1953] full monty* [1985] gas mark [1963] gay (homosexual sense) [1935] handbags (at dawn) [1987] her indoors [1979] jaffa* (cricketing term) Mackem [1991] made-up [1980] minted [1995] muller* [1993] mushy peas [1975] naff* [1966] nip and tuck [1980] nit nurse [1985] nutmeg* (football use) [1979] Old Bill (police) [1958] on the pull [1988] pass the parcel [1967] pear-shaped [1983] ploughman's lunch [1970] porky [1985] posh* [1915] ska* [1964] smart casual [1945] snazzy* [1932] something for the weekend [1990] throw one's toys out of the pram (or cot) [1989] tikka masala [1975]
Like Embra I am surprised at how recent a lot of these common words and phrases are. For example, I thought 'back to square one' dated from the 1920s. When the BBC began radio broadcasts from football matches they wanted people to follow the match so a plan of a football ground was printed in The Radio Times which was divided into numbered squares. The commentators could then say where the ball was by giving the number of the square and hence came the expression 'back to square one'.
I know this sound like an UL.
Can anyone cast a light on this phrase or any of the other words/phrases in the list?
(If you want to know the meaning of each word/phrase then there is a link to each in the OP.)
-------------------- Andrew, Ware, England Posts: 1709 | From: Ware, England | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
No way does that dates from 1990! That phrase conjures up images of white jacketed barbers, cut-throat razors, pomagne and Brylcreem, with Sir heading up to the country for the weekend in his open topped MG! The 1930s, surely?
Posts: 126 | From: Scotland | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged |
No way does that dates from 1990! That phrase conjures up images of white jacketed barbers, cut-throat razors, pomagne and Brylcreem, with Sir heading up to the country for the weekend in his open topped MG! The 1930s, surely?
Posts: 126 | From: Scotland | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Moonies/moonys only in 1990? No way can that be right. I'm sure I heard it when I was in my teens or younger... they should scour the 1980s for it.
Posts: 457 | From: Sacramento, CA | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
I assume that "moonie" refers to flashing your arse, rather than the cult... MInd you, I agree that 1990 sounds much too late.
-------------------- I want you to lay down your life, Perkins. We need a futile gesture at this stage. It will raise the whole tone of the war. Posts: 4495 | From: Surrey, UK | Registered: Jun 2000
| IP: Logged |
I seem to recall old Goon show epesodes where (i think) Sellers is refering to "The Beeb Beeb Ceeb"
I wonder how Milligan/Sykes wrote it in the script?
-------------------- "British English speakers point to Americans adding more syllables so that they can make even more noise without actually saying anything." Llewtrah
Posts: 2235 | From: Sussex , UK | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Here's the OED Wordhunt appeal list which features the new entries written after the wordhunt.
I see that Mackem as an inhabitant/supporter of Sunderland first appeared in print in 1988, which is around when I remember hearing it first (usually Newcastle fans referring to "Mackem bastards").
-------------------- "You learn something new every day if you're not careful" - Wilf Lunn Posts: 893 | From: Durham City, England | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
No mushy peas before 1975? I am sure when I moved to Liverpool in the very early 1960s I came across this delicacy. Surely there must be photographs of fish and chip shop menus. (But does this count as printed evidence?
No nit nurse before 1985? When I was at school in the sixties/seventies I am sure we used that term.
Did no-one play pass the parcel before 1967? I am sure we played it before then. There must be books of games which contain this game.
I thought tikka masala was a British (Scottish?) invention rather than American, but this may be a UL. 1975 seems to be a reasonable date for its first use as Indian take-aways were becoming more popular then (at least in Britain).
-------------------- Andrew, Ware, England Posts: 1709 | From: Ware, England | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
Richard W
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
quote:Originally posted by Andrew of Ware, England: No nit nurse before 1985? When I was at school in the sixties/seventies I am sure we used that term.
I'm sure we used it in primary school, and I started secondary school in 1982. If only my parents had kept the school letters informing them of her visits...
Posts: 8725 | From: Ipswich - the UK's 9th Best Place to Sleep! | Registered: Feb 2000
| IP: Logged |
-------------------- I want you to lay down your life, Perkins. We need a futile gesture at this stage. It will raise the whole tone of the war. Posts: 4495 | From: Surrey, UK | Registered: Jun 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'd be interested in their reference for cyberspace being 1982. AFAIK, it was coined by William Gibson, in Neuromancer, published 1984. This is "common knowledge", so anything published in 1982 with it would be very interesting indeed.
-------------------- "We don't keep a certified whale-vomit expert on staff." - Larry Penny, Director, Natural Resources Department, Town of East Hampton Posts: 377 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
1982W. GIBSON in Omni July 72/2, I knew every chip in Bobby's simulator by heart; it looked like your workaday Ono-Sendai VII, the 'Cyberspace Seven', but I'd rebuilt it so many times that [etc.].
-------------------- Se non è vero, è ben trovato. Posts: -99014 | From: Chapel Hill, North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Embra: I assume that "moonie" refers to flashing your arse, rather than the cult... MInd you, I agree that 1990 sounds much too late.
We used "moonie" to refer to flashing your arse when I was at school, that was in the 80's.
Posts: 289 | From: Leicester, UK | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Embra: I assume that "moonie" refers to flashing your arse, rather than the cult... MInd you, I agree that 1990 sounds much too late.
We used "moonie" to refer to flashing your arse when I was at school, that was in the 80's.
It's obviously a term in use in the 80s, but can you find a written source? This is what is required to confirm a useage at a certain time. It should be made clear that this particular example can only be traced written to 1990, but that it is also understood to have a much earlier time of origin.
-------------------- This is where I come up with something right? Something really clever... Posts: 6552 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I believe that's more "moon" than "moonie". Personally, I never heard of "moonie" referring to your ass at all.
As for (admittedly non-printed) evidence of moon/mooning, there's the scene in Grease where the boys moon the camera and the song the soundtrack switches to is Blue Moon. Okay, not so much saying "they are mooning", but a reference to the term. Perhaps a written evidence may exist in a script to Grease? I'm sure "mooning" has been in a hundred movies.
-------------------- "We don't keep a certified whale-vomit expert on staff." - Larry Penny, Director, Natural Resources Department, Town of East Hampton Posts: 377 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:I believe that's more "moon" than "moonie". Personally, I never heard of "moonie" referring to your ass at all.
It may be a Britishism, but it makes perfect sense. 'Moon' is the verb, 'moonie' is the noun, as in 'I'm going to pull a moonie at the Teacher' as an alternative to 'i'm going to moon the Teacher'.
Is there an American equivalent to 'Last chicken in Sainsbury's'
-------------------- This is where I come up with something right? Something really clever... Posts: 6552 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Re. the hunt for the origin of the 99 flake, I've heard that it was because the flake itself was 99 millimetres long. This seems unlikely if the 99 was invented in 1930s Britain, but could be plausible if it was invented by Italians.
-------------------- "You learn something new every day if you're not careful" - Wilf Lunn Posts: 893 | From: Durham City, England | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
Richard W
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
Hmm, is the length of a flake really accurate to within 1mm?
Posts: 8725 | From: Ipswich - the UK's 9th Best Place to Sleep! | Registered: Feb 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
The origin of '99' must surely be related to the cone, not the chocolate?
-------------------- This is where I come up with something right? Something really clever... Posts: 6552 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Jay Tea: The origin of '99' must surely be related to the cone, not the chocolate?
But it's only a '99' if it has a chocolate flake stuck in the ice cream, otherwise it's just an ice cream cone? Posts: 19 | From: Edinburgh, Scotland | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Jay Tea: The origin of '99' must surely be related to the cone, not the chocolate?
But it's only a '99' if it has a chocolate flake stuck in the ice cream, otherwise it's just an ice cream cone?
Aye, my point being there's no point looking up the chocolate if you want to find the origin of the term '99' (Not that anybody will) The origin lies in the ice cream cone itself, such as the theory it being made popular at a Scottish address '99 High Street' etc. The chocolate is Cadbury's Flake, and if they are 99 mm in length 'and' are the cause of the ice cream nomenclature then I shall eat my hat - though i'd much rather eat a Cadbury's flake
-------------------- This is where I come up with something right? Something really clever... Posts: 6552 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Jay Tea: The origin of '99' must surely be related to the cone, not the chocolate?
But it's only a '99' if it has a chocolate flake stuck in the ice cream, otherwise it's just an ice cream cone?
Aye, my point being there's no point looking up the chocolate if you want to find the origin of the term '99' (Not that anybody will) The origin lies in the ice cream cone itself, such as the theory it being made popular at a Scottish address '99 High Street' etc. The chocolate is Cadbury's Flake, and if they are 99 mm in length 'and' are the cause of the ice cream nomenclature then I shall eat my hat - though i'd much rather eat a Cadbury's flake
Ah, I think I see what you meant now, but in that case the '99' refers to the combination of ice cream, cone and chocolate. It's definitely not just the cone (or at least it wasn't growing up in Ayrshire in the 70's ).
Posts: 19 | From: Edinburgh, Scotland | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Ah, I think I see what you meant now, but in that case the '99' refers to the combination of ice cream, cone and chocolate.
But we don't know this do we?
It certainly does in an evil 'Mr Whppy' sort of fashion (modern) but for all we know (and a small part of me now really hopes!) '99' was a certain type of cone in itself, and '99' is just a modern reduction of the phrase "I'd like a 99 cone with a flake please". We're after origins here and so far all I can see is Scotch mist.
-------------------- This is where I come up with something right? Something really clever... Posts: 6552 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
They did have someone on the programme claiming that '99' was just the cone - he had some advertising paraphenalia from the 30s which had just cones with 99 written on them (unfortunately I can't remember the manufacturer's name).
-------------------- "You learn something new every day if you're not careful" - Wilf Lunn Posts: 893 | From: Durham City, England | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
The manufacturer was Askey's, but the earliest Askey's 99 cone reference they could find was 1937. They had an advert for a 99 from Cadbury's from 1935, albeit in a different form - an ice cream-flake-wafer sandwich - than the familiar 99 of today.
-------------------- Silence should never under any circumstances be construed as agreement. A lot of the time, it's simply a reflection that someone just said something so stupid that no response could possibly do it justice. - Ramblin' Dave Posts: 8528 | From: Nottingham, England | Registered: Feb 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
In that case, I may have to bow to Jay Tea's argument.
All I can say in my defence, by the mid to late 70's, it was definitely used in the reduced version.
Posts: 19 | From: Edinburgh, Scotland | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
The OED, to which I am addicted, sez: "5. ninety-nine Brit. (also 99), an ice-cream cone made with soft ice cream with a stick of flaky chocolate inserted into it. [The reason for the name is uncertain. The web site of the manufacturer, Cadbury, notes ‘The name 99 for the short Flake dates back to its launch in 1930 when the UK ice-cream industry was dominated by Italians. Legend had it that a King of Italy surrounded himself with an elite bodyguard of 99 soldiers. Therefore, to Italians, the number 99 signified the very finest quality.’ (www.cadbury.co.uk/choc_enc/brands/flake.htm).]" Its first use is in the Times in 1977, though, and corporations are rarely above a little self-promoting etymology.
I have another theory: in numerology, 99 is said to represent artistic genius. I dare you to tell me that the first person who shoved a flake into an ice cream was not an artistic genius!
-------------------- ~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~ Posts: 10111 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Chloe, that theory was debunked on the TV programme and will be removed from the next edition of the OED.
-------------------- Silence should never under any circumstances be construed as agreement. A lot of the time, it's simply a reflection that someone just said something so stupid that no response could possibly do it justice. - Ramblin' Dave Posts: 8528 | From: Nottingham, England | Registered: Feb 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
That's a bit odd. After all, there are enough weasel terms in it. It says only that the Cadbury site "notes" the theory, and even that site says "legend had it." I don't see any problem with the OED referring even to spurious etymologies, as long as it doesn't endorse then, which it clearly didn't here.
-------------------- ~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~ Posts: 10111 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by TheHoodedClaw: something for the weekend [1990]
No way does that dates from 1990! That phrase conjures up images of white jacketed barbers, cut-throat razors, pomagne and Brylcreem, with Sir heading up to the country for the weekend in his open topped MG! The 1930s, surely?
I've just caught up with the videoed edition from last week. They have pushed the phrase back to 1972. It was in a 'Monty Python' sketch about a zebra going into a barbers (don't ask) and being offered 'something for the weekend'.
-------------------- Andrew, Ware, England Posts: 1709 | From: Ware, England | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
All somebody needs to do is ask the management at Adil's to dig out one of their early menus from 1977. Everyone knows that they invented it.
-------------------- 'I don't care what they say about me as long as they spell my name right.' P.T. Barnam Posts: 128 | From: Staffordshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
They're doing B words tonight, so it could be on then. (Last week's edition on C words was very good, especially with Germaine Greer doing the history of the C word.)
-------------------- "You learn something new every day if you're not careful" - Wilf Lunn Posts: 893 | From: Durham City, England | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[lol]](graemlins/lol.gif)
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
).
