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Author Topic: Becoming an illegal alien
ThistleSoftware
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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quote:
Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:

I don't believe a nation should have different distinct cultures. I do believe a national culture can be an amalgam of multiple cultures, as America's is. But this requires a common language that may or may not also be a mixture. History has shown us that when separate cultures try to occupy the same land, they will clash. Look at the Middle East for modern examples.

Two responses to this statement:
1. The US already has distinct cultures, even among the white English-only population. The culture of Mississippi is distinct from the culture of Chicago. The culture of LA is distinct from the culture of Boston. Furthermore, in places like LA where there is a lot of cultural diversity, ethnic diversity, and lingual diversity, there is still relative peace. In my opinion more diversity will lead to more peace.
2. Since you think different languages=different cultures and different cultures=more strife, do you therefore think that everyone in the world should speak the same language and practice the same culture? If so, why don't we all switch to speaking Spanish and practicing Latin American culture?

My response to the topic in general:
Although I speak some Spanish and live in an area with an enormous number of native Spanish speakers, some of whome probably only speak Spanish, I have never once encountered a situation where I had to speak Spanish in order to accomplish my goal. I have encountered many situations where it helped, or where it made the other party more comfortable.

Furthermore I think that in this free market world those of us who embrace the oppurtunity to broaden our horizons and learn a new language such as Spanish will have the economic advantage over those who insist that they should not have to crawl out of the hole of monoglotism. So Mr. Hopkins, go ahead and make yourself into a dinosaur. In twenty years when my company is doing booming business with Latin American and I am conversing daily in Spanish with my wealthy colleagues we shall see whose worldview is triumphant.

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Officially Heartless

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Ed Hopkins
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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quote:
Originally posted by Ryda Wong:
quote:
Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
quote:
Originally posted by Ryda Wong:
Mr. Hopkins,

I have to ask. Why does the prospect of the country becoming bilingual offend you so much? I mean, really, what on earth could be wrong with that?

It depends on what you mean by a bilingual country.

If you mean a country where everyone speaks both English and Spanish, then my ojection is that it is an unecessarily difficult solution. It may seem more equitable to say "All the immigrants will learn English, and all the natives will learn Spanish, and everybody is happy." But think of the magnitude of teaching Spanish to all of the English-speakers. ....snip....America has the advantage of a nearly universal language already in place. It would be a shame not to preserve it.

Ah, yes. Because one must always do things the easy way. Quick, fast, cheap, and stupid. The national ethic. I forgot. thanks for reminding me.

Yes, a two language (or three language or more) system would more accuratly reflect the history and culture of our country, in which a large amount of it was removed, with dubious legality, from spanish-speaking folk (as well as folk with other languages, most of those now lost or so rarely spoken as to be nearly lost).


And, as an educator, I am sure you are aware that nothing but benefits are gained from teaching children two languages from birth, as it develops superior language acquisition skills, which are used in learning other languages later in life. Personally, i think it's a great failing in our educational and cultural system that many of our children don't receive instruction in a second language until high school.

I must say, Mr. Hopkins, your tone is rather condescending and nasty. Please note that this is coming from me, and I am regularly discussed as the bitchy witch of the boards, so normal nastiness doesn't bother me. Your tone, however, is a bit beyond the pale and quite out of bounds for a rational discussion.

My tone is condescending when it is called for. And you have called for it. Look at your post. Sarcasm at the start and insults at the end. Is this your idea of what is fit rational discussion? If so, I am glad to be beyond those bounds.

I simply state my ideas and explain where I find fault with what others are saying. I believe I am being calm and polite while others are unrestrained and rude. If that gives me a tone of condescension then so be it. Why not scold those who are routinely trying to insult me? When they become civil we will all be eye-to-eye and I won't have to look down on anyone.

The middle two paragraphs of your post contain some interesting fodder for debate. But since you find me so unfit for discussion, I will simply say that I disagree with the first and agree with the second.

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Methuselah
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
There is a reason to think Spanish-speaking people will be different. The current immigration situation is unprecedented in our history. The numbers are so great, the proportion of illegals so high, and the concentration so dense in certain areas, that we are already seeing patterns break. Large numbers of Spanish speaking people are not trying to blend, they are trying to fragment. I totally support the immigrants you speak of, who do make the effort. They are not the issue. In fact, they are often the very people who share my viewpoint.

Are you trying to seriously claim that there is more immigration, legal or illegal, now than at any point in America's history? Immigration is a fraction of what it was during the massive migrations of the past. Legal and illegal immigration accounts for approximately 1.3 million people per year in the United States according to the Center for Immigration studies. In a population of over 250 million people, that's approximately .5%.

In the mid to late 1800's, immigration accounted (keep in mind that the only illegal immigration in those days were the Chinese, who were excluded for reasons identical to the arguments you present in regards to Latinos) for approximately 1.5% of the population per year. And a good number of those immigrants arrived speaking no English whatsoever. They spoke German, Polish, Russian, Yiddish. They had native language newspapers, businesses, clubs, and other organizations. And in the midst of all of this was the industrial boom of the late 1800s.

It was in the 1920's, in the wake of WWI, when isolationist Americans began strict quotas for immigration. One of the strongest proponents was Albert Johnson, who drafted the Quota act of 1921. He is quoted as saying:
quote:
The United States of America, a nation great in all things, is ours today. To whom will it belong tomorrow? . . . The United States is our land. If it was not the land of our fathers, at least it may be, and it should be, the land of our children. We intend to maintain it so. The day of unalloyed welcome to all people, the day of indiscriminate acceptance of all races, has definitely ended.
Personally, I find this attitude extremely xenophobic and irrational. It's the same attitude that I see in your arguments, Mr. Hopkins.
quote:
I hope you will believe me and support me when I say I want this discussion to be civil and mature. Notice that I have not called anyone "slimy" nor their ideas "filth."
Perhaps you haven't, but you have said:
quote:
Just stop being an ass long enough to tell me what your point is...
And
quote:
It is not literal it's literary. Read a book!
And
quote:
I will use small words.
But, what I find most ironic is that you so vigorously despise the sarcastic attitude of some of those in this thread, yet you defended the OP specifically because of its sarcasm:
quote:
The topic of this thread was whether or not the OP was real. The OP was being sarcastic. He did not want to become an illegal alien. He wanted to make it known he favors government getting tougher on illegals, not softer. It was obvious to me, and, I suspect, to most of you too.
You entered this debate and attacked the sarcastic posts that were in direct response to the sarcastic OP. I would have to define that as hypocrisy.

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"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." - G.K. Chesterton

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Ryda Wong, EBfCo.
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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Sarcasm isn't wrong. It can reinforce an excellent point. If you can't handle sarcasm, might I suggest you not attempt debate. And as for the insults? Please! I was insulting myself.

Look, if you're going to play the "I'm gonna take my toys and go home and tell daddy on you" tactic, be my guest.

However, I would suggest you grow a bit of spine if you ever expect to have a decent discussion.

--------------------
So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus:

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PallasAthena
Xboxing Day


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Hey, I calls it like I sees it Ed Hopkins. You have a right to say xenophobic things, and I have a right to tell you you're a xenophope.

You know, I'm from the south, and you wouldn't believe how many times I hear, "I'm not a racist, but..." Or "Not to sound bigoted or anything, because I'm so not, but..."

Lately I've been hearing this: "It's not hispanic people I have a problem with, it's those Spics. You know. Those ones that cram 40 people into an apartment, and can't even speak English. All they do is drink beer and lay around. Lazy spics. And then they cram a dozen people into a car like they're clowns or something. Har Har Har. Oh, but I'm not biggoted. I have a hispanic friend. And the boy who does my yard is awfully sweet. Such hard workers."

You know, sort of like my racist uncle who doesn't have a problem with black people, "It's just those n*ggers. You know, they aren't like regular black people who I don't have a problem with. I'm not racist by the way. There's a difference between blacks and n*ggers."

Sorry Paradiddle! Don't smack me for the above paragraph. [Wink]

It's like those people who say, "They were such stereotypical greedy Jews! Not the regular kind. The stereotypical kind."

Just like those stereotypical single moms who have a bunch of kids for the welfare check. Not the regular single mom. The stereotypical one.

You know Ed, the admitting you've got predjudices is the first step to overcoming them.

ETA: Oh, and, "I'm not a bigot or anything, but it's those hispanics that are driving up crime. A lot of 'em just come up here to sell drugs and stuff."

--------------------
"How do you make chocolate? You take dark chocolate, you mix it with white milk, and it becomes a delicious drink. That is the chocolate I am talking about." --Ray Nagin

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Ed Hopkins
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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quote:
Originally posted by ThistleS:
quote:
Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:

I don't believe a nation should have different distinct cultures. I do believe a national culture can be an amalgam of multiple cultures, as America's is. But this requires a common language that may or may not also be a mixture. History has shown us that when separate cultures try to occupy the same land, they will clash. Look at the Middle East for modern examples.

Two responses to this statement:
1. The US already has distinct cultures, even among the white English-only population. The culture of Mississippi is distinct from the culture of Chicago. The culture of LA is distinct from the culture of Boston. Furthermore, in places like LA where there is a lot of cultural diversity, ethnic diversity, and lingual diversity, there is still relative peace. In my opinion more diversity will lead to more peace.
2. Since you think different languages=different cultures and different cultures=more strife, do you therefore think that everyone in the world should speak the same language and practice the same culture? If so, why don't we all switch to speaking Spanish and practicing Latin American culture?

My response to the topic in general:
Although I speak some Spanish and live in an area with an enormous number of native Spanish speakers, some of whome probably only speak Spanish, I have never once encountered a situation where I had to speak Spanish in order to accomplish my goal. I have encountered many situations where it helped, or where it made the other party more comfortable.

Furthermore I think that in this free market world those of us who embrace the oppurtunity to broaden our horizons and learn a new language such as Spanish will have the economic advantage over those who insist that they should not have to crawl out of the hole of monoglotism. So Mr. Hopkins, go ahead and make yourself into a dinosaur. In twenty years when my company is doing booming business with Latin American and I am conversing daily in Spanish with my wealthy colleagues we shall see whose worldview is triumphant.

1. Different parts of the US have their own separate traditions, but there is also a common culture that binds us together as a nation. An example of distictly different cultures would be the north and south prior to the Civil War. Or the Arabs and the Kurds in the Middle East. Or the Tutsis and Hutus in Rwanda. Historically, unitity leads to peace, and (too much) diversity to conflict.

There should be some differences, though. A totally homogenous society may be peaceful but it can stagnate. It's a game of finding the right balance. People knowing more than one language is a good kind of diversity. A language barrier is bad.

2. No, I don't think the whole world should have one culture. But one nation should. The question is, "Should America be a nation or just a country." A country is land inside a recognized border. A nation is a group of people with a shared identity. In colonial days we had 13 separate national identities. The success of America came when the states learned to forge a single nation. This didn't happen until after the Civil War when "United States" began to be used as a sigular name, not a plural. ("The United States is..." vs. "These United States are...")

Different people prefer living under different cultures. Those who want to experience multiple cultures can travel. Those who want their native culture can stay at home. Those who wish to exchange their native culture for another one can emmigrate. This variety of nations in the world gives us choices. I would not want to see that change. I, personally, am a stay at home type. I like American culture. I react negitively to people who don't like American culture but who want to live here any way. I view those who want to transplant their home culture into my home as invaders. My position is not unique. Most people feel that way about their homeland. It is not xenophobia, it's natural self-preservation.


At the end of your post you deride me for not wanting to learn Spanish. You imply that you are smart and headed for triumph because you have learned the language of Latin America. You believe that I will not be successful in dealing with those nations since I only speak my native tongue.

Fair enough.

How would you advise me if I happened to be a Mexican who refused to learn English but wanted success in America? Would your position be the same or do you have a double standard?

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PallasAthena
Xboxing Day


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quote:
How would you advise me if I happened to be a Mexican who refused to learn English but wanted success in America? Would your position be the same or do you have a double standard?
Chances are, you wouldn't be refusing. You'd be struggling and possibly failing since learning a second language as an adult is incredibly difficult.

failure to learn English != refusal to speak English

--------------------
"How do you make chocolate? You take dark chocolate, you mix it with white milk, and it becomes a delicious drink. That is the chocolate I am talking about." --Ray Nagin

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pinqy
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
quote:
Originally posted by pinqy:
Just to address one false claim (for now):
quote:
Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
Illegals don't show up on census data.

Yes, they do. Neither the decennial census nor the monthly Current Population Survey ask about legal status, and by law the Census could not tell law enforcement even if they knew. Illegals are counted.

pinqy

You can't back that up logically. The most you can say is we don't know if they are counted or not.
It's rare that someone criticizes their own claim when trying to dispute the opposite claim. How is it that the most I can say is that we don't know, but you can freely say none are counted? That amuses me. And yes I can back it up logically. The Census is very throrough they check houses, then they check again, then they ask neighbors, all the time making it clear that they do not ask about legal status and cannot, by law, report any information to law enforcement except failure to respond to the census, which is a legal requirement. Of course they don't get everybody, but they do get almost everybody. I'm not making this up...I've been to Suitland many times and spoken with numerous officials at the Census Bureau.

quote:
If the survey doesn't ask about legal status then we don't know how many of the respondents are illegal. However, I can guess that illegals would be wary of the census and not participate for fear that law enforcement would find out.
Why would they be afraid law enforcement would find out when it is made clear that legal status is not asked and no information will be given to the police? Do you really stand by your claim that all illegals avoid the census? You can guess all you want, I know from experience that Census does not miss many people.

quote:
I'm not sure how the government estimates the number of illegals, and it is certainly possible that those estimates are high. But I would bet any amount of money that illegals are far underrepresented in Census data.
I'd take that bet. First, the government doesn't estimate the number of illegals. Second, as I've said, there is no logical reason for illegals to avoid the Census, and the Census takes excruciating care to get everyone. It just doesn't make any sense for them to be "far underrepresented."

pinqy

--------------------
Don't Forget!
Winter Solstice Hanukkah Christmas Kwanzaa & Gurnenthar's Ascendance Are Coming!

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pinqy
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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To slightly correct myself, I wrote
quote:
First, the government doesn't estimate the number of illegals.
but the Office of Immigration Statistics (now part of Homeland Security) did do an estimate in 1996 (updated in 2001) Illegal Alien Resident Population. The estimates were made by calculating overstays by examining INS arrival/departure records, and by looking at the Current Population Survey figures on country of origin, adjusting by the number from each country legally admitted, and adjusting for the number of overstays.

pinqy

--------------------
Don't Forget!
Winter Solstice Hanukkah Christmas Kwanzaa & Gurnenthar's Ascendance Are Coming!

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wanderwoman
Bluetooth Christmas


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The government made a special effort in the 2000 census to increase the accuracy of their count of Hispanic and Black populations because it was clear those populations had been undercounted in 1990. There were census workers in minority neighborhoods who were part of the community, and who worked with people to get the census forms filled out and to make sure that everyone was aware that they could be counted without coming to the attention of the government in a negative way.

There was a big incentive for leaders in minority communities to aid this effort because so much economic and political power depends on an accurate count. Having talked to friends who worked as census workers, I know how careful and persistent they were in counting everyone.

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"But I'm adding this to my reasons why I never really liked really good looking men much. Sheesh, what good is good looking if you have to stuff a sock in his mouth." - Sara at home
NFBSK, IIRC and other mysterious Snopester language

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Methuselah
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
1. Different parts of the US have their own separate traditions, but there is also a common culture that binds us together as a nation. An example of distictly different cultures would be the north and south prior to the Civil War. Or the Arabs and the Kurds in the Middle East. Or the Tutsis and Hutus in Rwanda. Historically, unitity leads to peace, and (too much) diversity to conflict.

[off topic nitpick]The Tutsi and Hutu people of Rwanda did not have distinctly different cultures.[/off topic nitpick]
Back on topic, again you make the assumption that people speaking a language other than English is 'too much diversity'. There is no historical reference to support that assertion. There is no logical reference to support that assertion.

However, there is historical and logical reference to support the assertion that refusal to accept differences in people and populations has led, and will lead, to much violence and war. It's not the differences, it's the intolerance.

--------------------
"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." - G.K. Chesterton

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Gale
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:


2. No, I don't think the whole world should have one culture. But one nation should. The question is, "Should America be a nation or just a country." A country is land inside a recognized border. A nation is a group of people with a shared identity. In colonial days we had 13 separate national identities. The success of America came when the states learned to forge a single nation. This didn't happen until after the Civil War when "United States" began to be used as a sigular name, not a plural. ("The United States is..." vs. "These United States are...")

Different people prefer living under different cultures. Those who want to experience multiple cultures can travel. Those who want their native culture can stay at home. Those who wish to exchange their native culture for another one can emmigrate. This variety of nations in the world gives us choices. I would not want to see that change. I, personally, am a stay at home type. I like American culture. I react negitively to people who don't like American culture but who want to live here any way. I view those who want to transplant their home culture into my home as invaders. My position is not unique. Most people feel that way about their homeland. It is not xenophobia, it's natural self-preservation.

And which culture would that be? Do you want the Texans and New Mexicans to give up Cinco de Mayo? Maybe Lousiana should give the ol' heave ho to Mardi Gras? Let's tell those folks in Chicago that dying a river green once a year is being a bad American. I understand Hawaii has quite a few ceremonies and celebrations which we don't have in the main 48. Should we tell them to lose hundreds of years of their history? Hey, let's go kick some Amish butt, too! Crikey, I forgot about religion. This is going to be very tricky.

Are we all going to eat the same thing, too? Cause I like breakfast tacos with refried beans and jalepenos for breakfast. Does that make me un-American? I guess we could compromise and make the American breakfast those round bread things where you pour batter on a hot pan and serve them with butter and syrup. Thing is, what are we going to call them? Flapjacks? Pancakes? Griddle cakes? Crepes? What about those blasphemers who like them with jelly and powdered sugar? This afternoon would you like a milkshake, an egg cream, or a frappe? This language & culture thing is going to be tricky.

A study of early English settlers to the New World will show very diverse groups as far back as the early 1700's even within the groups of white Anglo caucasions. Albion's Seed

We've never been the same people and we never will be exactly alike. We don't even speak the same English from border to border.

I've already made my points about language and those who want to live here in another post. for a first hand account by an illegal alien of 16 years, Texas Monthly has a very good story. You have to register, but if you want a different viewpoint, the story is well worth it.

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Ryda Wong, EBfCo.
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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Actually, I vote we ditch either the mid-western caucasian or the stuck-up northeastern caucasian cultures. They have the most boring food and the worst clothes.

--------------------
So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus:

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PallasAthena
Xboxing Day


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And the food isn't anything to write home about either, Ryda. Blech.

--------------------
"How do you make chocolate? You take dark chocolate, you mix it with white milk, and it becomes a delicious drink. That is the chocolate I am talking about." --Ray Nagin

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Ryda Wong, EBfCo.
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by PallasAthena:
And the food isn't anything to write home about either, Ryda. Blech.

That was my point exactly. Really. The WASPS don't even put BACON in their vegetables. The nerve. And they can't make a biscuit to save their lives.

Off with their heads.

--------------------
So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus:

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ThistleSoftware
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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quote:
Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
quote:
Originally posted by ThistleS:
quote:
Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:

I don't believe a nation should have different distinct cultures. I do believe a national culture can be an amalgam of multiple cultures, as America's is. But this requires a common language that may or may not also be a mixture. History has shown us that when separate cultures try to occupy the same land, they will clash. Look at the Middle East for modern examples.

Two responses to this statement:
1. The US already has distinct cultures, even among the white English-only population. The culture of Mississippi is distinct from the culture of Chicago. The culture of LA is distinct from the culture of Boston. Furthermore, in places like LA where there is a lot of cultural diversity, ethnic diversity, and lingual diversity, there is still relative peace. In my opinion more diversity will lead to more peace.
2. Since you think different languages=different cultures and different cultures=more strife, do you therefore think that everyone in the world should speak the same language and practice the same culture? If so, why don't we all switch to speaking Spanish and practicing Latin American culture?

My response to the topic in general:
Although I speak some Spanish and live in an area with an enormous number of native Spanish speakers, some of whome probably only speak Spanish, I have never once encountered a situation where I had to speak Spanish in order to accomplish my goal. I have encountered many situations where it helped, or where it made the other party more comfortable.

Furthermore I think that in this free market world those of us who embrace the oppurtunity to broaden our horizons and learn a new language such as Spanish will have the economic advantage over those who insist that they should not have to crawl out of the hole of monoglotism. So Mr. Hopkins, go ahead and make yourself into a dinosaur. In twenty years when my company is doing booming business with Latin American and I am conversing daily in Spanish with my wealthy colleagues we shall see whose worldview is triumphant.

1. Different parts of the US have their own separate traditions, but there is also a common culture that binds us together as a nation. An example of distictly different cultures would be the north and south prior to the Civil War. Or the Arabs and the Kurds in the Middle East. Or the Tutsis and Hutus in Rwanda. Historically, unitity leads to peace, and (too much) diversity to conflict.

There should be some differences, though. A totally homogenous society may be peaceful but it can stagnate. It's a game of finding the right balance. People knowing more than one language is a good kind of diversity. A language barrier is bad.

2. No, I don't think the whole world should have one culture. But one nation should. The question is, "Should America be a nation or just a country." A country is land inside a recognized border. A nation is a group of people with a shared identity. In colonial days we had 13 separate national identities. The success of America came when the states learned to forge a single nation. This didn't happen until after the Civil War when "United States" began to be used as a sigular name, not a plural. ("The United States is..." vs. "These United States are...")

Different people prefer living under different cultures. Those who want to experience multiple cultures can travel. Those who want their native culture can stay at home. Those who wish to exchange their native culture for another one can emmigrate. This variety of nations in the world gives us choices. I would not want to see that change. I, personally, am a stay at home type. I like American culture. I react negitively to people who don't like American culture but who want to live here any way. I view those who want to transplant their home culture into my home as invaders. My position is not unique. Most people feel that way about their homeland. It is not xenophobia, it's natural self-preservation.


At the end of your post you deride me for not wanting to learn Spanish. You imply that you are smart and headed for triumph because you have learned the language of Latin America. You believe that I will not be successful in dealing with those nations since I only speak my native tongue.

Fair enough.

How would you advise me if I happened to be a Mexican who refused to learn English but wanted success in America? Would your position be the same or do you have a double standard?

-What is our common culture? What do I, an Irish-American liberal Californian raised by Catholics, have in common with a Southern Baptist? I have a lot more in common with my Spanish-speaking neighbors. Why do we need a common culture or language to be a successful nation? We have not needed those things up until this point.
-I agree with the person who said that it's intolerance, not diversity, that creates conflict. All the homogeneity in the world cannot make people get along when they want to hate each other.
-How progressive of you to agree that there should be some diversity. I suppose you get to pick which ways people are allowed to diverge from your norm.
-What is this American culture that you love so much? Honestly I don't agree that there is an overall American culture, other than the overarching desire for freedom. If that is what you are speaking of then I don't see how speaking a language other than English or participating in any other cultural rituals could be contrary to it. Also, I like that America is a salad bowl of various immigrant cultures. This way I don't have to spend thousands of dollars travelling to be able to learn Spanish or learn to eat sushi or have friends and neighbors from all different backgrounds. I don't want everyone who lives in America to be the same or speak the same language, because that actually harms me.
-There is nothing self-preservative about wanting to shut yourself off from different cultures. Different cultures cannot hurt you. They cannot even hurt your culture. I suspect that what you are afraid of is that some day there will be no one else who speaks your language or is part of your culture. To that I say tough noogies. That's what happens when population changes. Change with it or be left in the dust.
-If you were a Mexican who wanted success with English-speaking America and you didn't want to learn English, I would say the same thing. Learn it or fail. I would like to remind you once again, though, that not all of America is English-speaking. Many of us are happily bilingual or monolingually non-English speaking. If someone who spoke only Spanish wanted to succeed with Spanish-speaking Americans, I would tell them godspeed and good luck.

--------------------
Officially Heartless

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ThistleSoftware
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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quote:
Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
quote:
Originally posted by ThistleS:
quote:
Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:

I don't believe a nation should have different distinct cultures. I do believe a national culture can be an amalgam of multiple cultures, as America's is. But this requires a common language that may or may not also be a mixture. History has shown us that when separate cultures try to occupy the same land, they will clash. Look at the Middle East for modern examples.

Two responses to this statement:
1. The US already has distinct cultures, even among the white English-only population. The culture of Mississippi is distinct from the culture of Chicago. The culture of LA is distinct from the culture of Boston. Furthermore, in places like LA where there is a lot of cultural diversity, ethnic diversity, and lingual diversity, there is still relative peace. In my opinion more diversity will lead to more peace.
2. Since you think different languages=different cultures and different cultures=more strife, do you therefore think that everyone in the world should speak the same language and practice the same culture? If so, why don't we all switch to speaking Spanish and practicing Latin American culture?

My response to the topic in general:
Although I speak some Spanish and live in an area with an enormous number of native Spanish speakers, some of whome probably only speak Spanish, I have never once encountered a situation where I had to speak Spanish in order to accomplish my goal. I have encountered many situations where it helped, or where it made the other party more comfortable.

Furthermore I think that in this free market world those of us who embrace the oppurtunity to broaden our horizons and learn a new language such as Spanish will have the economic advantage over those who insist that they should not have to crawl out of the hole of monoglotism. So Mr. Hopkins, go ahead and make yourself into a dinosaur. In twenty years when my company is doing booming business with Latin American and I am conversing daily in Spanish with my wealthy colleagues we shall see whose worldview is triumphant.

1. Different parts of the US have their own separate traditions, but there is also a common culture that binds us together as a nation. An example of distictly different cultures would be the north and south prior to the Civil War. Or the Arabs and the Kurds in the Middle East. Or the Tutsis and Hutus in Rwanda. Historically, unitity leads to peace, and (too much) diversity to conflict.

There should be some differences, though. A totally homogenous society may be peaceful but it can stagnate. It's a game of finding the right balance. People knowing more than one language is a good kind of diversity. A language barrier is bad.

2. No, I don't think the whole world should have one culture. But one nation should. The question is, "Should America be a nation or just a country." A country is land inside a recognized border. A nation is a group of people with a shared identity. In colonial days we had 13 separate national identities. The success of America came when the states learned to forge a single nation. This didn't happen until after the Civil War when "United States" began to be used as a sigular name, not a plural. ("The United States is..." vs. "These United States are...")

Different people prefer living under different cultures. Those who want to experience multiple cultures can travel. Those who want their native culture can stay at home. Those who wish to exchange their native culture for another one can emmigrate. This variety of nations in the world gives us choices. I would not want to see that change. I, personally, am a stay at home type. I like American culture. I react negitively to people who don't like American culture but who want to live here any way. I view those who want to transplant their home culture into my home as invaders. My position is not unique. Most people feel that way about their homeland. It is not xenophobia, it's natural self-preservation.


At the end of your post you deride me for not wanting to learn Spanish. You imply that you are smart and headed for triumph because you have learned the language of Latin America. You believe that I will not be successful in dealing with those nations since I only speak my native tongue.

Fair enough.

How would you advise me if I happened to be a Mexican who refused to learn English but wanted success in America? Would your position be the same or do you have a double standard?

-What is our common culture? What do I, an Irish-American liberal Californian raised by Catholics, have in common with a Southern Baptist? I have a lot more in common with my Spanish-speaking neighbors. Why do we need a common culture or language to be a successful nation? We have not needed those things up until this point.
-I agree with the person who said that it's intolerance, not diversity, that creates conflict. All the homogeneity in the world cannot make people get along when they want to hate each other.
-How progressive of you to agree that there should be some diversity. I suppose you get to pick which ways people are allowed to diverge from your norm.
-What is this American culture that you love so much? Honestly I don't agree that there is an overall American culture, other than the overarching desire for freedom. If that is what you are speaking of then I don't see how speaking a language other than English or participating in any other cultural rituals could be contrary to it. Also, I like that America is a salad bowl of various immigrant cultures. This way I don't have to spend thousands of dollars travelling to be able to learn Spanish or learn to eat sushi or have friends and neighbors from all different backgrounds. I don't want everyone who lives in America to be the same or speak the same language, because that actually harms me.
-There is nothing self-preservative about wanting to shut yourself off from different cultures. Different cultures cannot hurt you. They cannot even hurt your culture. I suspect that what you are afraid of is that some day there will be no one else who speaks your language or is part of your culture. To that I say tough noogies. That's what happens when population changes. Change with it or be left in the dust.
-If you were a Mexican who wanted success with English-speaking America and you didn't want to learn English, I would say the same thing. Learn it or fail. I would like to remind you once again, though, that not all of America is English-speaking. Many of us are happily bilingual or monolingually non-English speaking. If someone who spoke only Spanish wanted to succeed with Spanish-speaking Americans, I would tell them godspeed and good luck.

--------------------
Officially Heartless

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ThistleSoftware
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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quote:
Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
quote:
Originally posted by ThistleS:
quote:
Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:

I don't believe a nation should have different distinct cultures. I do believe a national culture can be an amalgam of multiple cultures, as America's is. But this requires a common language that may or may not also be a mixture. History has shown us that when separate cultures try to occupy the same land, they will clash. Look at the Middle East for modern examples.

Two responses to this statement:
1. The US already has distinct cultures, even among the white English-only population. The culture of Mississippi is distinct from the culture of Chicago. The culture of LA is distinct from the culture of Boston. Furthermore, in places like LA where there is a lot of cultural diversity, ethnic diversity, and lingual diversity, there is still relative peace. In my opinion more diversity will lead to more peace.
2. Since you think different languages=different cultures and different cultures=more strife, do you therefore think that everyone in the world should speak the same language and practice the same culture? If so, why don't we all switch to speaking Spanish and practicing Latin American culture?

My response to the topic in general:
Although I speak some Spanish and live in an area with an enormous number of native Spanish speakers, some of whome probably only speak Spanish, I have never once encountered a situation where I had to speak Spanish in order to accomplish my goal. I have encountered many situations where it helped, or where it made the other party more comfortable.

Furthermore I think that in this free market world those of us who embrace the oppurtunity to broaden our horizons and learn a new language such as Spanish will have the economic advantage over those who insist that they should not have to crawl out of the hole of monoglotism. So Mr. Hopkins, go ahead and make yourself into a dinosaur. In twenty years when my company is doing booming business with Latin American and I am conversing daily in Spanish with my wealthy colleagues we shall see whose worldview is triumphant.

1. Different parts of the US have their own separate traditions, but there is also a common culture that binds us together as a nation. An example of distictly different cultures would be the north and south prior to the Civil War. Or the Arabs and the Kurds in the Middle East. Or the Tutsis and Hutus in Rwanda. Historically, unitity leads to peace, and (too much) diversity to conflict.

There should be some differences, though. A totally homogenous society may be peaceful but it can stagnate. It's a game of finding the right balance. People knowing more than one language is a good kind of diversity. A language barrier is bad.

2. No, I don't think the whole world should have one culture. But one nation should. The question is, "Should America be a nation or just a country." A country is land inside a recognized border. A nation is a group of people with a shared identity. In colonial days we had 13 separate national identities. The success of America came when the states learned to forge a single nation. This didn't happen until after the Civil War when "United States" began to be used as a sigular name, not a plural. ("The United States is..." vs. "These United States are...")

Different people prefer living under different cultures. Those who want to experience multiple cultures can travel. Those who want their native culture can stay at home. Those who wish to exchange their native culture for another one can emmigrate. This variety of nations in the world gives us choices. I would not want to see that change. I, personally, am a stay at home type. I like American culture. I react negitively to people who don't like American culture but who want to live here any way. I view those who want to transplant their home culture into my home as invaders. My position is not unique. Most people feel that way about their homeland. It is not xenophobia, it's natural self-preservation.


At the end of your post you deride me for not wanting to learn Spanish. You imply that you are smart and headed for triumph because you have learned the language of Latin America. You believe that I will not be successful in dealing with those nations since I only speak my native tongue.

Fair enough.

How would you advise me if I happened to be a Mexican who refused to learn English but wanted success in America? Would your position be the same or do you have a double standard?

-What is our common culture? What do I, an Irish-American liberal Californian raised by Catholics, have in common with a Southern Baptist? I have a lot more in common with my Spanish-speaking neighbors. Why do we need a common culture or language to be a successful nation? We have not needed those things up until this point.
-I agree with the person who said that it's intolerance, not diversity, that creates conflict. All the homogeneity in the world cannot make people get along when they want to hate each other.
-How progressive of you to agree that there should be some diversity. I suppose you get to pick which ways people are allowed to diverge from your norm.
-What is this American culture that you love so much? Honestly I don't agree that there is an overall American culture, other than the overarching desire for freedom. If that is what you are speaking of then I don't see how speaking a language other than English or participating in any other cultural rituals could be contrary to it. Also, I like that America is a salad bowl of various immigrant cultures. This way I don't have to spend thousands of dollars travelling to be able to learn Spanish or learn to eat sushi or have friends and neighbors from all different backgrounds. I don't want everyone who lives in America to be the same or speak the same language, because that actually harms me.
-There is nothing self-preservative about wanting to shut yourself off from different cultures. Different cultures cannot hurt you. They cannot even hurt your culture. I suspect that what you are afraid of is that some day there will be no one else who speaks your language or is part of your culture. To that I say tough noogies. That's what happens when population changes. Change with it or be left in the dust.
-If you were a Mexican who wanted success with English-speaking America and you didn't want to learn English, I would say the same thing. Learn it or fail. I would like to remind you once again, though, that not all of America is English-speaking. Many of us are happily bilingual or monolingually non-English speaking. If someone who spoke only Spanish wanted to succeed with Spanish-speaking Americans, I would tell them godspeed and good luck.

--------------------
Officially Heartless

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wanderwoman
Bluetooth Christmas


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quote:
Originally posted by Ryda Wong:
quote:
Originally posted by PallasAthena:
And the food isn't anything to write home about either, Ryda. Blech.

That was my point exactly. Really. The WASPS don't even put BACON in their vegetables. The nerve. And they can't make a biscuit to save their lives.

Off with their heads.

Hey! I'm a midwestern caucasian and I can make a biscuit to save my life. If I'm ever attacked, I can lob one of my biscuits at my attacker's head and it's sure to give them a concussion. [Big Grin]

--------------------
"But I'm adding this to my reasons why I never really liked really good looking men much. Sheesh, what good is good looking if you have to stuff a sock in his mouth." - Sara at home
NFBSK, IIRC and other mysterious Snopester language

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Ryda Wong, EBfCo.
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by wanderwoman:
quote:
Originally posted by Ryda Wong:
quote:
Originally posted by PallasAthena:
And the food isn't anything to write home about either, Ryda. Blech.

That was my point exactly. Really. The WASPS don't even put BACON in their vegetables. The nerve. And they can't make a biscuit to save their lives.

Off with their heads.

Hey! I'm a midwestern caucasian and I can make a biscuit to save my life. If I'm ever attacked, I can lob one of my biscuits at my attacker's head and it's sure to give them a concussion. [Big Grin]
YOMANK!

Tell you what, when the revolution comes, we'll let you live, despite your culinary flatness [Big Grin]

--------------------
So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus:

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Lainie
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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I'm not sure what you're counting as WASP, but my dad was Scots-Irish from rural Kentucky, and he cooked all his vegetables with meat -- not necessarily bacon, though. Hamhocks.

--------------------
How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black

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Ed Hopkins
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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Start patting yourselves on the back. You have done what you have been trying to do for days: silence the person who dares to disagree with you.

It is quite obvious that I am dealing people who are unabashedly intolerant of whites, Protestants, American traditional culture, and those who speak only English. Most of all you are intolerant of dissent. You can't even imagine why someone would take a different view of the world - such people must be evil. You would make wonderful fascists.

Go re-read the posts. There is a double standard here. To disparage Hispanics is racist filth but to disparage WASPs is LOL funny. Someone who wishes to speak only English is a dinosaur, but Godspeed to anyone who bravely speaks only Spanish. All ethnic food is delicious but no whitey can cook worth a damn.

There is no longer any point in arguing with most of you. You are hopeless bigots, and my patience is at an end. Plus, I have more important things to worry about.

On the Today show this morning, there was a story about the explosion of immigration (overwhelmingly Mexican) across the nation. (Though I'm sure you think NBC news is just a crack-pot conservative mouthpiece.) One of the problems noted was that school systems are having to hire new teachers who can give instruction in Spanish. (Hmm, do they teach in both languages and cover only half as much material, or do they segregate the classes?) What they failed to mention is that schools have a set budget for teachers, so non Spanish-speakers will have to be let go.

Though I face an uncertain future, I can leave this thread, knowing two things: I am right, and all of you are wrong. It is a small comfort. It still sucks to be me, but at least I am not you.

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Don Enrico
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
I can leave this thread, knowing two things: I am right, and all of you are wrong.

Did you need this thread to find out? I was under the impression you knew that from the beginning.

Don Enrico,
who is white, but not Anglo-Saxon, speaks German and English, but not Spanish, and can cook different European as well as Asian dishes quite well, thank you.

edited because I speak English, but still make mistakes in writing (see below)

--------------------
My spelling is Wobbly. It's good spelling, but it Wobbles, and the letters get in the wrong places. - Pooh Bear

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Methuselah
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
Start patting yourselves on the back. You have done what you have been trying to do for days: silence the person who dares to disagree with you.

It is quite obvious that I am dealing people who are unabashedly intolerant of whites, Protestants, American traditional culture, and those who speak only English. Most of all you are intolerant of dissent. You can't even imagine why someone would take a different view of the world - such people must be evil. You would make wonderful fascists.

No entiendo, Señor...in Español, por favor?
[Razz]

--------------------
"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." - G.K. Chesterton

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wanderwoman
Bluetooth Christmas


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quote:
Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
On the Today show this morning, there was a story about the explosion of immigration (overwhelmingly Mexican) across the nation. (Though I'm sure you think NBC news is just a crack-pot conservative mouthpiece.) One of the problems noted was that school systems are having to hire new teachers who can give instruction in Spanish. (Hmm, do they teach in both languages and cover only half as much material, or do they segregate the classes?) What they failed to mention is that schools have a set budget for teachers, so non Spanish-speakers will have to be let go.

If you are talking about this segment, I hate to have to break this to you but it's a story about census figures that you previously said don't include illegals. So you may have to rethink how you feel about census numbers if you are going to use items like that to make your case.

As for the schools, to my knowledge teachers in the U.S. are almost universally required to take a foreign language as part of their pursuit of a degree. Those who are smart would be well-advised to take Spanish. The teachers that I know are well aware of the need to remain flexible in order to stay employed (not just in this area, they need to be able to teach a variety of subjects and age levels). That's just a fact of life as money for education gets tighter and tighter.

Nobody here has denied that the immigrant population is increasing, or that illegal immigration presents problems that need to be solved. Most people here are simply rejecting the doomsday scenario that you describe. Maybe we have more faith in the ability of our country to adapt to and embrace elements of other cultures.

But if you want to stay up at night worrying about a Hispanic takeover of the U.S., by all means, go for it.

Edited to fix bad writing

--------------------
"But I'm adding this to my reasons why I never really liked really good looking men much. Sheesh, what good is good looking if you have to stuff a sock in his mouth." - Sara at home
NFBSK, IIRC and other mysterious Snopester language

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lynnejanet
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
It is quite obvious that I am dealing people who are unabashedly intolerant of whites, Protestants, American traditional culture, and those who speak only English. Most of all you are intolerant of dissent. You can't even imagine why someone would take a different view of the world - such people must be evil. You would make wonderful fascists.

See, Ed, this comment gets to the heart of what people here have been trying to get across to you. Being tolerant of other cultures and languages does not automatically make you intolerant of "whites, Protestants, American traditional culture (???), and those who speak only English." People here are unabashedly tolerant of a multiplicity of cultures. They are arguing that there is no "American traditional culture," except perhaps Native culture. Your world view would impose your definition of culture on everyone, and make dissent illegal. If that's not fascism, I don't know what is.

quote:
One of the problems noted was that school systems are having to hire new teachers who can give instruction in Spanish. (Hmm, do they teach in both languages and cover only half as much material, or do they segregate the classes?) What they failed to mention is that schools have a set budget for teachers, so non Spanish-speakers will have to be let go.


Do you have a cite for your allegation that non-Spanish speaking teachers are being dismissed? And why are Spanish-speaking teachers a "problem"? In the Toronto papers yesterday, there were articles celebrating the first Mandarin-only business classes being offered at a Canadian university (University of Toronto, I believe). Note that the articles were celebrating that fact. It is a positive thing. There is a demand for classes in Mandarin, and the university met the demand. Everybody wins.

quote:
Though I face an uncertain future, I can leave this thread, knowing two things: I am right, and all of you are wrong. It is a small comfort. It still sucks to be me, but at least I am not you.
Thank the DOYC!

Of course, I know you're not actually reading this thread, because you've left, [Roll Eyes] but I thought it was worth it to take one more opportunity to convert you to our PC view of utopia.

--------------------
lynne"insert appropriate punny phrase here"janet

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Gale
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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quote:
Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
Start patting yourselves on the back. You have done what you have been trying to do for days: silence the person who dares to disagree with you.

It is quite obvious that I am dealing people who are unabashedly intolerant of whites, Protestants, American traditional culture, and those who speak only English. Most of all you are intolerant of dissent. You can't even imagine why someone would take a different view of the world - such people must be evil. You would make wonderful fascists.

Though I face an uncertain future, I can leave this thread, knowing two things: I am right, and all of you are wrong. It is a small comfort. It still sucks to be me, but at least I am not you.

My head is spinning: I, a white, anglo-saxon, native English speaker whose family arrived here from England in the 17th and 18th centuries, am a fascist because I disagree with you that all Americans should be like me? The mind boggles.

Your profile says your a teacher and you truly have no idea how ESL classes work?

As for your final remarks, right back at you, amigo.

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Ryda Wong, EBfCo.
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
All ethnic food is delicious but no whitey can cook worth a damn.

For the record, I never said that no whitey could cook worth a damn. I said WASPS and mid-westerner's can't cook worth a damn. It's a proven fact.

Ryda "Southerners have to have SOMETHING to feel good about" Wong

--------------------
So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus:

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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
Start patting yourselves on the back. You have done what you have been trying to do for days: silence the person who dares to disagree with you.

It is quite obvious that I am dealing people who are unabashedly intolerant of whites, Protestants, American traditional culture, and those who speak only English. Most of all you are intolerant of dissent. You can't even imagine why someone would take a different view of the world - such people must be evil. You would make wonderful fascists.


I will leave this thread thanking God you aren't teaching my child.

Heaven forbid anybody should hold a different perspective than you, Ed.

quote:
Go re-read the posts. There is a double standard here. To disparage Hispanics is racist filth but to disparage WASPs is LOL funny. Someone who wishes to speak only English is a dinosaur, but Godspeed to anyone who bravely speaks only Spanish. All ethnic food is delicious but no whitey can cook worth a damn.

I think you don't know what "Godspeed" means.

quote:
There is no longer any point in arguing with most of you. You are hopeless bigots, and my patience is at an end. Plus, I have more important things to worry about.

Of course you do, dear.

quote:
On the Today show this morning, there was a story about the explosion of immigration (overwhelmingly Mexican) across the nation. (Though I'm sure you think NBC news is just a crack-pot conservative mouthpiece.) One of the problems noted was that school systems are having to hire new teachers who can give instruction in Spanish. (Hmm, do they teach in both languages and cover only half as much material, or do they segregate the classes?) What they failed to mention is that schools have a set budget for teachers, so non Spanish-speakers will have to be let go.

I watched that, as well. The report claimed that Colorado was "now" a hot migrant destination.

I lived in Colorado for a couple of years in the mid-80s. The town I lived in was about 70% Hispanic. So "now" is an invalid claim.

I love the Today show, but I would not consider their 2 minute reports about such substantive issues as immigration to be exhaustive treatises on those topics. Use them instead as a jumping off point for more research.

quote:
Though I face an uncertain future, I can leave this thread, knowing two things: I am right, and all of you are wrong. It is a small comfort. It still sucks to be me, but at least I am not you.
Hyperbole is an invalid debate tactic. You fail.

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"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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ThistleSoftware
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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quote:
Originally posted by AnglRdr:
quote:
Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
To disparage Hispanics is racist filth but to disparage WASPs is LOL funny. Someone who wishes to speak only English is a dinosaur, but Godspeed to anyone who bravely speaks only Spanish. All ethnic food is delicious but no whitey can cook worth a damn.

I think you don't know what "Godspeed" means.

I'm guessing Ed was refering to my post in which I said that if someone who speaks only Spanish wishes to succeed in business by only dealing with Spanish speaking Americans, I would tell them Godspeed and good luck. This is exactly what I would tell an English speaker who wanted to succeed in business dealing only with English speaking Americans. I think both strategies are less viable than becoming bilingual, hence the "good luck." Maybe that wasn't clear.

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Officially Heartless

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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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Thanks, ThistleS. Ed's reinterpretation was less than adequate.

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"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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Canuckistan
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
It is quite obvious that I am dealing people who are unabashedly intolerant of whites, Protestants, American traditional culture, and those who speak only English.
Who here has been intolerant of those who speak only English? People have said that it's beneficial to know more than one language. And it is.

You, however, have been very intolerant of Spanish-speakers, Ed. Just so you know, I am one of them. And your view that the Spanish language is a threat to America is very xenophobic.

quote:
There is no longer any point in arguing with most of you. You are hopeless bigots, and my patience is at an end.
[lol] [lol] [lol]

You called the people in this thread bigots? You're a teacher and you don't even know the meaning of the word! This is really funny. And scary for your students.

(BTW, a bigot would be someone who's intolerant of even the presence of another language. Like, say, Spanish.)

quote:
Though I face an uncertain future, I can leave this thread, knowing two things: I am right, and all of you are wrong.
If that's what you've learned here, then you are leaving this thread knowing nothing.

quote:
It is a small comfort. It still sucks to be me, but at least I am not you.
You're right. You're not me. You're an intolerant xenophobe. I'll gladly not be you, then.

Good day.

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People need to stop appropriating Jesus as their reason for behaving badly. It's so irritating. (Avril)

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ThistleSoftware
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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quote:
Originally posted by AnglRdr:
Thanks, ThistleS. Ed's reinterpretation was less than adequate.

Which is surprising to neither of us, I'm sure.

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Officially Heartless

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Ryda Wong, EBfCo.
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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Canuckistan: I've never seen your signature more appropriate.

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So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus:

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Canuckistan
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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Yeah, it's kind of how I felt after stumbling across this thread, and reading some of the most xenophobic stuff I've ever come across on this board.

I'm definitely weary. [lol]

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People need to stop appropriating Jesus as their reason for behaving badly. It's so irritating. (Avril)

Posts: 8429 | From: New York run by the Swiss (Toronto) | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
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