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Author Topic: Becoming an illegal alien
snopes
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Comment: Is the attached letter fact or fiction?

June 7, 2006

The Honorable Paul S. Sarbanes
309 Hart Senate Office Building
Washington DC, 20510

Dear Senator Sarbanes,

As a native Marylander and excellent customer of the Internal Revenue
Service, I am writing to ask for your assistance. I have contacted the
Immigration and Naturalization Service in an effort to determine the
process for becoming an illegal alien and they referred me to you.

My reasons for wishing to change my status from U.S. Citizen to illegal
alien stem from the bill which was recently passed by the Senate and for
which you voted. If my understanding of this bill's provisions is
accurate, as an illegal alien who has been in the United States for five
years, what I need to do to become a citizen is to pay a $2,000 fine and
income taxes for three of the last five years. I know a good deal when I
see one and I am anxious to get the process started before everyone
figures it out. Simply put, those of us who have been here legally have
had to pay taxes every year so I'm excited about the prospect of avoiding
two years of taxes in return for paying a $2,000 fine.
Is there any way that I can apply to be illegal retroactively?
This would yield an excellent result for me and my family because we paid
heavy taxes in 2004 and 2005.

Another benefit in gaining illegal status would be that my daughter would
receive preferential treatment relative to her law school applications.

If you would provide me with an outline of the process to become illegal
(retroactively if possible) and copies of the necessary forms, I would be
most appreciative. Thank you for your assistance.


Your Loyal Constituent,

Pete McGlaughlin

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Aptenodytes_Forsteriis
We Wish You a Merry Giftmas


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Does a Senator qualify as a consular officer? If so our humorous friend may have given up his citizenship, since one waty to do so is to announce to said officer one's intent to give up US citizenship. That would make the joke much funnier IMHO

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James D
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Well, a person with the name Pete McGlaugin does exist in the state of Maryland. (though I won't post it here, it took me less than 2 minutes to find him using a simple online directory).

Some archived pages claim that an individual with that name and address was a contributor to 'swift boat vets for truth', so it's presumable that he is a staunch conservative.

I suppose if someone wanted to contact Mr. McGlaughlin and ask him, that could settle it. Or someone could ask Senator Sabines, though I'm not sure if constituent mail is considered confidential or not.

Anyone in the area where this would be a local call? His number is, as they say, in the book.

In a way it's scary how much information you can find on a person using a little detective work online.

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Ophiuchus
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This seems to overlook the simple fact that illegal immigrants can't legally get employeement, own a business or home or recieve a number of at first seemingly inconsequential government services (including owning a drivers liscence).

Now, though many illegal immigrants manage to do this anyway, they do so under the radar. If this guy tells the government he is an illegal immigrant, the naturalization service can come in and deport him... I suppose to Canada or Mexico, but maybe they'll send him to whatever European or Asian country his ancestors arrived from... or to a reservation if the writer is a Native American.

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Methuselah
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I think this guy should get his wish, pay the $2000 fine and taxes for three of the last five years. BUT he needs to adjust his income retroactively as well, and can only earn as much as an illegal immigrant.

Now the joke is getting humorous.

--------------------
"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." - G.K. Chesterton

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Ed Hopkins
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quote:
Originally posted by Methuselah:
I think this guy should get his wish, pay the $2000 fine and taxes for three of the last five years. BUT he needs to adjust his income retroactively as well, and can only earn as much as an illegal immigrant.

Now the joke is getting humorous.

I don't get it. Please explain.
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Ophiuchus
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Because illegal immigrants can't get jobs legally, they tend to be payed minimum wage or less for their work.
In reality, if you are making that little to begin with you don't tend to pay Federal Income Tax anyway. And, of course, its not like anyone can really duck out of paying Sales Tax or Property Tax (unless you are a Native American with a reservation ID card, but no reasonable person could complain about that.)

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Methuselah
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quote:
Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
quote:
Originally posted by Methuselah:
I think this guy should get his wish, pay the $2000 fine and taxes for three of the last five years. BUT he needs to adjust his income retroactively as well, and can only earn as much as an illegal immigrant.

Now the joke is getting humorous.

I don't get it. Please explain.
You see, people who tend to write silly crap like in the OP have this delusion that illegal aliens (and the poor, homeless, and all racial minorities) have the sweetest deal in town, and are living the high life off of the tax money of hard-working "real Americans".

The real story is quite a bit different. Illegal aliens typically work crap jobs for crap money, many times it's less than minimum wage, and they have no recourse if they're taken advantage of or abused. But, why bother with that when it's easier to say "them foreigners is takin' all our money".

--------------------
"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." - G.K. Chesterton

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pinqy
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quote:
If my understanding of this bill's provisions is accurate, as an illegal alien who has been in the United States for five years, what I need to do to become a citizen is to pay a $2,000 fine and income taxes for three of the last five years.

His understanding is not accurate. To be eligible to apply for adjustment of status
quote:
The alien shall have been employed in the United States, in the aggregate, for--

`(I) at least 3 years during the 5-year period ending on April 5, 2006; and

`(II) at least 6 years after the date of enactment of the Immigrant Accountability Act of 2006.

but that does not mean that only 3 years of taxes are due (unless only 3 years were worked). All tax liability is accountable.

S. 2611 (search for sec. 245b)

pinqy

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Ed Hopkins
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I took the OP to be a critisism of government for failing to treat criminals as criminals. I remember when the public learned that inmates got free cable when everyone else had to pay for it. People made jokes about wanting to move to prison. Nobody really thinks inmates have a sweet life, just like nobody thinks illegals do. The point is, government cracks down on citizens for the smallest infractions but offers amnesty to people who really hurt our society.

I was educated in the '80s, so I had to overcome the PC brainwashing that taught me every other culture was superior than my own. Now I believe that America is great because American culture is better (for Americans) than any other. Imigrants who arrive to share in our culture can be a value to the country. Illegals who want to leech off the system and bring with them their own cultures of crime and illiteracy, are not welcome. I have no sympathy for their poverty. They should work to fix their own country, not foul up ours.

We should either defend our borders or give the land back to Mexico. We should not let foriegners earn tax-free money in our economy and send it home to be spent in Mexico's economy.

The OP was trying to use humor because, for some reason, we are supposed to feel ashamed of wanting to protect our nation. Sarbanes is my senator too, and I wouldn't want him to vote for anything that excuses the illegal behavior of foriengers when no such leniency would be shown to citizens.

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Norton II
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As one who is both a liberal and someone who was an educator in the '80s (still am, for that matter), I have to say that Ed Hopkins appears to have been very poorly educated. Cultural diversity does not mean that every other culture is superior to American culture. It means that American culture is not superior to any other culture, regardless of what people like Mr. Hopkins would want to believe.

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Ophiuchus
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Illegal immigrants are hurting our country?
Not nearly as much as KKK & Neo Nazis (Mexican immigrants have never blown up a government building) or psycho evagelical christians who seems intent on undermining all rights in this country and forcing it into an endless war with every other country on earth... or, for that matter, idiots like the Minute Men who basically give everyone in the world a good reason to hate us.

I've never heard of the Germans or French 'buffing up their borders to keep out illegal immigrants' since the Berlin wall fell and they had far bigger and more devastating wars between them than the U.S. and Mexico have ever had.
In fact, there are only a handful of countries that I can think of that would make so much of a fuss about people from other countries coming in and out. Everyone except for the iron-fisted regimes have come to realize it all matters very little.

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Methuselah
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quote:
Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
I was educated in the '80s, so I had to overcome the PC brainwashing that taught me every other culture was superior than my own.

So, I guess now you only have to overcome the PC brainwashing that taught you that America is white, christian, mono-linguistic, and thoroughly infallible.

quote:
Illegals who want to leech off the system and bring with them their own cultures of crime and illiteracy, are not welcome.
Wow, that would be a much more powerful statement if you had a mastery of grammar.

(Hint: commas should serve a purpose in a sentence)

quote:
We should either defend our borders or give the land back to Mexico.

May I watch when you present this proposition to Texas?

quote:
We should not let foriegners earn tax-free money in our economy and send it home to be spent in Mexico's economy.
Then, perhaps, you should be willing to spend more for tomatoes and strawberries. While on the topic of tax-free money, you do realize that, in all probablity, wealthy American citizens exploit the tax system and funnel more money out of the economy than illegal immigrants, right?

quote:
The OP was trying to use humor because, for some reason, we are supposed to feel ashamed of wanting to protect our nation.

No, you're supposed to feel ashamed for your latent, racist attitude. The reason, in my not-so-humble opinion, that this immigration debate came to the forefront is because 'them mexicans is differnt from us'. They have darker skin, speak Spanish, and want to be treated humanely. Let's not put any focus on the illegal immigrants from European countries...after all, they blend in nicely here in America.

quote:
Sarbanes is my senator too, and I wouldn't want him to vote for anything that excuses the illegal behavior of foriengers when no such leniency would be shown to citizens.

Yeah...American citizens are never shown leniency. Those Mexicans get all the breaks because we're all so afraid of offending people. [Roll Eyes]

--------------------
"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." - G.K. Chesterton

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Ed Hopkins
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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Ophiuchus,
You are correct that America has other problems. But it is naive to think that illegal immigration is not a major one. The language issue alone is frightening. In some parts of the country, Americans can't find work without speaking Spanish. Having English areas and Spanish areas would be terrible for our nation. Ask Canada about their French area and the problems that causes.

Methuseluh,
You are so sarcastic, it is pathetic. Why bother responding at all if you can't be civil. You call me a racist? Do you believe that Mexicans are a different race than Americans? I think Americans are part of the human race, what then, are Mexicans? I dislike criminals of every origin. I have no problem with Mexicans as a people, but you seem to have a prejudice against whites, Christians, and English speaking people. How dare you spew your hate on this thread. We are discussing a very serious threat to the U.S. and all you have to offer are insults.

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wanderwoman
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quote:
In some parts of the country, Americans can't find work without speaking Spanish.
Do you have a cite for that? And I don't mean an article that says a person got turned down for a job because he or she did not speak Spanish, I mean a cite that shows exactly what I quoted above.

And I don't see how the language issue is frightening. I'm not afraid of other languages at all. Not even Spanish.

--------------------
"But I'm adding this to my reasons why I never really liked really good looking men much. Sheesh, what good is good looking if you have to stuff a sock in his mouth." - Sara at home
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Ed Hopkins
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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quote:
Originally posted by wanderwoman:
quote:
In some parts of the country, Americans can't find work without speaking Spanish.
Do you have a cite for that? And I don't mean an article that says a person got turned down for a job because he or she did not speak Spanish, I mean a cite that shows exactly what I quoted above.

And I don't see how the language issue is frightening. I'm not afraid of other languages at all. Not even Spanish.

How about this ad? Or this one? These took less than a minute to find. I also have personal experience from when I worked as a salesman in Iowa. I was sent out to meet with local business owners. Many times they spoke only Spanish so I had no chance to make a sale.

If you live in the U.S. you should be afraid of Spanish. We are the 2nd largest Spanish-speaking nation in the world (source) . How did we get that way? Americans didn't decide to change their language, a huge influx of Spanish-speaking people moved in and changed it for us. Look at the other top Spanish nations: Mexico, Spain, Colombia, Argentina, Venezuela, Peru, Chile, Cuba. Compare with United Kingdom, Canada, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand. Look at the political, social, and economic situations of those countries. There is a benefit to speaking English. English is the dominant international language in communications, science, business, aviation, entertainment, diplomacy and the internet.

I stand by my statement that American culture is the best culture for Americans. There really is no argument. If you like Italian culture, you go to Italy. If you like Japanese culture, you go to Japan. Likewise, America is the place for American culture. If not, then where?

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Ed Hopkins
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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quote:
Originally posted by Norton II:
As one who is both a liberal and someone who was an educator in the '80s (still am, for that matter), I have to say that Ed Hopkins appears to have been very poorly educated. Cultural diversity does not mean that every other culture is superior to American culture. It means that American culture is not superior to any other culture, regardless of what people like Mr. Hopkins would want to believe.

Sorry I missed this little gem earlier. I assume you mean that you are still an educator, not still in the '80s. Yes, I was poorly educated, that was my point. My entire generation was raised to feel shame for being American. "It is a shame that Indian life was replaced by European settlement, but it is a blessing that so many foreign cultures are immigrating and changing it." If that's not teaching kids that American culture is the worst, then I don't know what is.
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Lainie
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quote:
Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
My entire generation was raised to feel shame for being American.

Your entire generation? How do you know how your entire generation was raised, or what they were taught?

ETA: Don't even get me started on the irony of your attempt to correct Norton II's semtence structure after some of your earlier posts in this thread. But it's probably not your fault -- your entire generation probably wasn't taught how to write a coherent sentence.

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wanderwoman
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quote:
How about this ad? Or this one? These took less than a minute to find. I also have personal experience from when I worked as a salesman in Iowa. I was sent out to meet with local business owners. Many times they spoke only Spanish so I had no chance to make a sale.

Go back and take a look at your cites, they actually prove you wrong. The first one lists two jobs, only one of which requires Spanish. The second one lists Spanish as preferred, not a requirement. So no way do those back up this quote:

quote:
In some parts of the country, Americans can't find work without speaking Spanish.
And I'm still not afraid of Spanish.

Edited to fix typo

--------------------
"But I'm adding this to my reasons why I never really liked really good looking men much. Sheesh, what good is good looking if you have to stuff a sock in his mouth." - Sara at home
NFBSK, IIRC and other mysterious Snopester language

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Methuselah
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quote:
Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
In some parts of the country, Americans can't find work without speaking Spanish.

Yeah! It's totally unfair! It's like when I went to interview for a job last week and they said I had to understand COBAL and C++ languages to get the job. It's totally an attack on America when private businesses are allowed to require special skills of the people they hire.

quote:
I also have personal experience from when I worked as a salesman in Iowa. I was sent out to meet with local business owners. Many times they spoke only Spanish so I had no chance to make a sale.
How dare someone express their freedoms by not speaking to you in your preferred language so that you can sell them something. It's an outrage I tells ya!

America would be SOOOOO much better if we could just force everyone to be the same as you.

[Roll Eyes]

Here's a clue for you, Ed: America has no official language. It's a democratic republic that has deep roots in the free-market system. English became the dominant language because of the economic opportunity afforded to those who spoke English, but throughout the history of the country there have been major populations that spoke their native language for primary communication. Most cities had major daily newspapers printed in German, Polish, Yiddish, Russian, Chinese, etc. There have long been companies that hire people who speak particular languages so that they could maximize sales opportunities in those populations.

Spanish has gained major footholds throughout the United States for similar reasons...there is a large, Spanish-speaking market that represents potential sales opportunities. Companies will look to capitalize on those opportunities by marketing to Spanish-speaking audiences in...wait for it...SPANISH!

Just because you happen to be uncomfortable with people not speaking to you in your primary language is not cause for denigrating an entire race of people.

Oh, and the little "holier-than-thou-I-don't-see-separate-races-only-the-human-race" speech you delivered...nice try, but no sale.

--------------------
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Don Enrico
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quote:
Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
If you live in the U.S. you should be afraid of Spanish. We are the 2nd largest Spanish-speaking nation in the world (source) . How did we get that way? Americans didn't decide to change their language, a huge influx Spanish-speaking people moved in and changed it for us. Look at the other top Spanish nations: Mexico, Spain, Colombia, Argentina, Venezuela, Peru, Chile, Cuba. Compare with United Kingdom, Canada, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand. Look at the political, social, and economic situations of those countries.

#1: America (US America) is one of the largest (probably the largest) English speaking nations in the world because a huge number of English-speaking people moved in and made it that way - without bothering to learn any Mohawk, Navajo or Sioux. The (then) majority of "Americans" didn't decide to change their language either.

#2: The political, social, and economic problems of Spain derive from the people there speaking Spanish? [Eek!] So they should probably welcome all English-speaking immigrants from Africa to overcome that dire situation ...

#3: Look at Germany: We are - despite all problems - still the wealthiest and economically strongest nation in Europe, and we speak neither English nor Spanish (al least as a first language). What did we do wrong?

Don *[/irony]* Enrico

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Ed Hopkins
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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quote:
Originally posted by Lainie:
quote:
Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
My entire generation was raised to feel shame for being American.

Your entire generation? How do you know how your entire generation was raised, or what they were taught?

ETA: Don't even get me started on the irony of your attempt to correct Norton II's semtence structure after some of your earlier posts in this thread. But it's probably not your fault -- your entire generation probably wasn't taught how to write a coherent sentence.

Look at the movies and television aimed at kids in the '80s: Like Karate Kid, where the American man trains boys to be sadistic bullies and only the Japanese man is wise and good. Or G.I.Joe, where the white guys (Shipwreck, Bazooka, Gung Ho) tend to be buffoons, but the Indian (Spirt) is wise and good (like all Indians in cartoons, the info he receives from the spirit world is always specific and right on the money). Don't try to pretend the PC movement didn't happen. I was there and so were you.

Don't even get me started on the irony of your attempt to spell "sentence" as "semtence" while scolding me on my abilty to be coherent. You are not new to the internet. You know I write better than 99% of the people out there. You are just grasping at straws to find fault with me.

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Ed Hopkins
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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Wanderwoman,

I don't know what you want from me. I don't have the time or money to conduct a nationwide survey on the impact of Spanish on the job market. But just think about it: How could one country with two populations speaking two different languages possibly be an advantage? Give me one example.

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DemonWolf
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quote:
Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
Or G.I.Joe, where the white guys (Shipwreck, Bazooka, Gung Ho) tend to be buffoons, but the Indian (Spirt) is wise and good (like all Indians in cartoons, the info he receives from the spirit world is always specific and right on the money).

I suppose Flint, Duke, Scarlett, Cover Girl, Low Light, breaker, beach head, Frostbite, Tunnel Rat, Depthcharge, Deep Six, Mutt, , Dusty, Airborne, and Ace don't count?
The number of non-buffon charaters so completely outnumber the few comic releif charaters that I can't even understand how you could even think of GI Joe as an example. [Confused]

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Ed Hopkins
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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Methuselah,

When you use as much sarcasm as you do, and talk as much rot as you do, I have trouble arguing. I can't tell if the things you say are what you believe or just what you are pretending to believe in order to score off me.

Just stop being an ass long enough to tell me what your point is, and I will tell you if it makes any sense. Deal?

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Ed Hopkins
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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quote:
Originally posted by Don Enrico:
#1: America (US America) is one of the largest (probably the largest) English speaking nations in the world because a huge number of English-speaking people moved in and made it that way - without bothering to learn any Mohawk, Navajo or Sioux. The (then) majority of "Americans" didn't decide to change their language either.

#2: The political, social, and economic problems of Spain derive from the people there speaking Spanish? [Eek!] So they should probably welcome all English-speaking immigrants from Africa to overcome that dire situation ...

#3: Look at Germany: We are - despite all problems - still the wealthiest and economically strongest nation in Europe, and we speak neither English nor Spanish (al least as a first language). What did we do wrong?

Don *[/irony]* Enrico

#1 I agree with you. When the English speaking people took over the land it was a terrible thing for the Indians. The lesson I take from that history is: Don't let it happen again. I have as much reason to resist Spanish settlement as they did when the Engish arrived.

#2 Language and culture go hand-in-hand. I didn't say one causes the other, but there is a positive correlation.

#3 Germany was formed from smaller states because of their common language. That is what you did right. A common language is a boon for any nation. This has been known since Babel. Why do so many people here wish to argue it?

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Methuselah
Happy Holly Days


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quote:
Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
Methuselah,

When you use as much sarcasm as you do, and talk as much rot as you do, I have trouble arguing. I can't tell if the things you say are what you believe or just what you are pretending to believe in order to score off me.

Just stop being an ass long enough to tell me what your point is, and I will tell you if it makes any sense. Deal?

Let me begin by saying that I know of no way to "score points" within the context of this message board. Beyond that, I believe that my point was made very clear.

I believe that you are reacting irrationally in regards to a language. To put it simply: It's Spanish, it can't hurt you.

Countries throughout the world deal with language on a daily basis. In Poland, if you are seeking a high paying job, it's best to be fluent in Polish, English, and German or French. At the very least, you will need to know two languages. Poland has seen quite an economic boom over the last decade. It's really a beautiful country, and Warsaw is a hip, hip town.

In Austria, nearly the entire population speaks fluent German and English. Very few rant about the apocalypse being wrought because of the infilitration of a foreign language. Austria has a very high standard of living, and is the 4th strongest economy in Europe. In terms of GDP per capita, it's 8th in the world (For reference, the US is 4th, Australia is 14th).

Canada has two official languages and is a prosperous, democractic nation. It's 7th in terms of GDP per capita.

In India, there are hundreds of languages spoken. They have no less than 23 official languages...and they've been taking away all those sweet, sweet American jobs.

So, what is there to fear about people who speak Spanish? There is no law requiring you to learn Spanish. You won't be jailed for not speaking Spanish to someone of Latino heritage. So, what exactly is the issue?

From your earlier post, all I can surmise is that you are angry that someone who spoke Spanish didn't buy something from you. Well, here's a clue: if you want to sell something to Spanish speaking people...learn Spanish! Here, in the United States, we call that capitalism.

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"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." - G.K. Chesterton

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Norton II
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
quote:
Originally posted by Norton II:
As one who is both a liberal and someone who was an educator in the '80s (still am, for that matter), I have to say that Ed Hopkins appears to have been very poorly educated. Cultural diversity does not mean that every other culture is superior to American culture. It means that American culture is not superior to any other culture, regardless of what people like Mr. Hopkins would want to believe.

Sorry I missed this little gem earlier. I assume you mean that you are still and educator, not still in the '80s. Yes, I was poorly educated, that was my point. My entire generation was raised to feel shame for being American. "It is a shame that Indian life was replaced by European settlement, but it is a blessing that so many foreign cultures are immigrating and changing it." If that's not teaching kids that American culture is the worst, then I don't know what is.
First, the minor point: What part of "still am" do you have problems with? Do you honestly think for a second that I was claiming to still be in the 80s? Or were you trying, unsuccessfully, to score some points? BTW, someone who uses "and" when you meant "an" should hardly sneer at someone else's grammar.

But the main point is that you were never told by an educator "It is a shame that Indian life was replaced by European settlement, but it is a blessing that so many foreign cultures are immigrating and changing it." You were told this by folks like Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly, who want you to believe that educators told you this. Apparently you've bought into this myth.

It never fails to amaze me that (1) Limbaugh et al keep claiming that "liberals believe such-and-so" when few if any liberals actually believe such-and-so and (2) people like Mr. Hopkins accept Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Coulter, etc. as being correct.

--------------------
Emperor of the United States and Protector of Mexico

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wanderwoman
Bluetooth Christmas


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quote:
Originally posted by Ed Hopkins:
Wanderwoman,

I don't know what you want from me. I don't have the time or money to conduct a nationwide survey on the impact of Spanish on the job market. But just think about it: How could one country with two populations speaking two different languages possibly be an advantage? Give me one example.

You made a claim. As evidence of that claim, you provided two links that actually support the opposite of your claim.

If you wanted to try to support your claim, you could provide a reputable source from an area (doesn't have to be nationwide, the claim you made wasn't nationwide) that shows that every job in any part of the country requires the applicant to speak Spanish. That was your claim.

I don't care if you try to support your claim or not, because I'm sure you're wrong. Whether you know you are wrong or not is not important to me.

I don't care whether "one country with two populations speaking two different languages" offers any advantages. We actually have more than two populations speaking more than two different languages. I just don't happen to think it's a problem, as you obviously do.

--------------------
"But I'm adding this to my reasons why I never really liked really good looking men much. Sheesh, what good is good looking if you have to stuff a sock in his mouth." - Sara at home
NFBSK, IIRC and other mysterious Snopester language

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Ed Hopkins
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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quote:
Originally posted by Methuselah:
Let me begin by saying that I know of no way to "score points" within the context of this message board. Beyond that, I believe that my point was made very clear.

Please don't use quotation marks to put words in my mouth. There are no points. To "score off" people is to put them down in front of others in order to make yourself look superior. Among close friends it is acceptable, but in a debate it's just rude.

quote:
I believe that you are reacting irrationally in regards to a language. To put it simply: It's Spanish, it can't hurt you.
I believe I am reacting rationally. Lack of communication causes serious problems. I do not fear Spanish, I fear the loss of English.

quote:
Countries throughout the world deal with language on a daily basis. In Poland, if you are seeking a high paying job, it's best to be fluent in Polish, English, and German or French. At the very least, you will need to know two languages. Poland has seen quite an economic boom over the last decade. It's really a beautiful country, and Warsaw is a hip, hip town.

In Austria, nearly the entire population speaks fluent German and English. Very few rant about the apocalypse being wrought because of the infilitration of a foreign language. Austria has a very high standard of living, and is the 4th strongest economy in Europe. In terms of GDP per capita, it's 8th in the world (For reference, the US is 4th, Australia is 14th).

Canada has two official languages and is a prosperous, democractic nation. It's 7th in terms of GDP per capita.

Showing that bilingual nations can succeed doesn't counter my argument. You point out how people in these countries are practically required to learn a second language and that the second language is usually English. Yes, knowing English is a benefit. Yes, better communication is a benefit. That is what I want for the United States.

quote:
In India, there are hundreds of languages spoken. They have no less than 23 official languages...and they've been taking away all those sweet, sweet American jobs.
India is not a country I would wish to emulate. Plus only the English speakers get "sweet" American jobs.

quote:
So, what is there to fear about people who speak Spanish? There is no law requiring you to learn Spanish. You won't be jailed for not speaking Spanish to someone of Latino heritage. So, what exactly is the issue?

From your earlier post, all I can surmise is that you are angry that someone who spoke Spanish didn't buy something from you. Well, here's a clue: if you want to sell something to Spanish speaking people...learn Spanish! Here, in the United States, we call that capitalism.

I didn't want to sell anything to Spanish speaking people. I wanted to sell something to English speaking people. I also like to buy from English speaking people. I like to be able to communicate in any business transaction. Why is that so hard to understand?

At a hamburger joint in Maryland, I had to go through four people before they found someone who could understand that I wanted grilled not raw onions.

At a car rental in Boston, I had to call my boss at home to see if he purchased insurance when he arranged my car, because no one at the counter could understand my question.

At a video store in Iowa, no movies in English were offered. They catered only to the Spanish population.

Am I still at fault in those cases? Who is it that is supposed to learn a new language for the sake of capitalism, the buyer or the seller? Since America takes in people from every other nation, it would be a lot simpler if they would all learn English, than for me to learn every other language on Earth.

Remember, my problem is not with people who speak both Spanish and English, or with people who speak only Spanish and live in other countries. I object to people who speak only Spanish and choose to live in the United States. I most strongly object when they choose to do it illegally (as does the OP).

PS Thank you for finally dropping the sarcasm. That too, was hurting communication.

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Norton II
Deck the Malls


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Mr. Hopkins must travel in different parts of Iowa than I've been in. When I was in Des Moines and Davenport three years ago, I didn't notice Spanish signs in stores, Spanish-speaking employees at resturants, Spanish language channels on cable TV, or any reason to believe that English wasn't the first language of the vast majority of Iowans. Please tell me, Mr. Hopkins, which sections of Iowa have become Mexican or Puerto Rican colonies?

--------------------
Emperor of the United States and Protector of Mexico

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Ed Hopkins
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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quote:
Originally posted by DemonWolf:
I suppose Flint, Duke, Scarlett, Cover Girl, Low Light, breaker, beach head, Frostbite, Tunnel Rat, Depthcharge, Deep Six, Mutt, , Dusty, Airborne, and Ace don't count?
The number of non-buffon charaters so completely outnumber the few comic releif charaters that I can't even understand how you could even think of GI Joe as an example. [Confused]

OK, you've pointed out all of the whites who are not fools. Now name the non-whites who ARE fools in G.I. Joe.

My point is that historically, women, foreigners, blacks and Indians were fair game for buffoonish characters. In fact, they were the preferred targets. In my youth ('70s & '80s) it became taboo to portray anyone except white American males as the fool.

Society did not reject the notion that comedy had to be at someone else's expense, it just decided that children should not see any oppressed group in a bad light, lest they learn harmful stereotypes. Amos and Andy were banned but the Three Stooges weren't.

Children born at such a time would not know it had ever been any other way. From my point of view, it seems I was taught to bear the shame for centuries of other people's bigotry. For a time I felt that shame because I knew was descended from people who probably owned slaves, killed Indians and thought women shouldn't vote. As an adult I realize that modern-day blacks are also descended from slave-owners. Indians have Indian-killers in their family trees. And all American women come from a long line of men (and women) who believed in the inferiority of women.

If anybody should be held to account for the past, then everybody should.

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Ed Hopkins
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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quote:
Originally posted by Norton II:
First, the minor point: What part of "still am" do you have problems with? Do you honestly think for a second that I was claiming to still be in the 80s? Or were you trying, unsuccessfully, to score some points? BTW, someone who uses "and" when you meant "an" should hardly sneer at someone else's grammar.

Not sneering, just finding humor in AN ambiguous sentence. I did not for a minute think you were claiming to still be in the 1980s. I might point out that everyone's nitpicking over my writing hints at a love of the English language that the content of the posts try to deny.

quote:
But the main point is that you were never told by an educator "It is a shame that Indian life was replaced by European settlement, but it is a blessing that so many foreign cultures are immigrating and changing it." You were told this by folks like Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly, who want you to believe that educators told you this. Apparently you've bought into this myth.

It never fails to amaze me that (1) Limbaugh et al keep claiming that "liberals believe such-and-so" when few if any liberals actually believe such-and-so and (2) people like Mr. Hopkins accept Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Coulter, etc. as being correct.

You may not be a time-traveler but you claim to have been there when I was educated, and that your memory of it is the more accurate. You also must be able to travel to parallel dimensions wherein Ed Hopkins listens to Rush Limbaugh et al.

Stop telling me what you know about me. Tell me what you know about you. Were you ever an elementary school teacher? Were you ever involved in writing books, movies, or television for children? Have you honestly never heard of white guilt and political correctness? Keep your observations to your own experiences, and stop trying to rewrite mine.

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Ed Hopkins
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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quote:
Originally posted by wanderwoman:

I don't care if you try to support your claim or not, because I'm sure you're wrong. Whether you know you are wrong or not is not important to me.

I withdraw my claim, as I am only able to support it with my own experience and anecdotal accounts. I am now willing to believe that English is the only language I, or any other American, will ever need in any of the 50 states. I certainly wish this were so.
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wanderwoman
Bluetooth Christmas


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quote:
I might point out that everyone's nitpicking over my writing hints at a love of the English language that the content of the posts try to deny.
Who in this thread has tried to deny "a love of the English language"?

--------------------
"But I'm adding this to my reasons why I never really liked really good looking men much. Sheesh, what good is good looking if you have to stuff a sock in his mouth." - Sara at home
NFBSK, IIRC and other mysterious Snopester language

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