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Author Topic: The Shrinking Doberman
snopes
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Comment: Do the skulls of Doberman Pinschers, because of poor breeding,
shrink with age, squeezing their brains which causes them to turn on their
owners?

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DawnStorm
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Hell no!!
I volunteer for a local Doberman Rescue, and trust me this myth comes up a lot. It's usually given as an excuse as to why people distrust the breed, or don't want to adopt older dogs.
Complete BS.

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Remarkgullabull
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I have heard a similar rumor about rottweillers. Supposedly, their brain keeps growing but the skull cavity does not.

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nurple
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I have heard that poor breeding has resulted in too-small brain pans for many breeds, especially smaller ones such as Yorkies. I haven't ever heard that it causes the dogs to turn on their owners, but it can cause seizures and many other health problems like that. I will try to see if I can find some info on that.
In my opinion, the bottom line is that we need to stop these puppy mills and backyard breeders that practice irresponsible breeding.

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Aud
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So it that why Rottweillers drool so much? [Smile]
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emperor_genghis_khan
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Yes and beware very soon all dogs skulls shall be shrunk and they will take over the world.

[fish]

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boogers
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Rotties drool because they are thinking of how yummy you look.
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JR
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I can assure you that Rottweiler's brains do not increase in size over time. Granite doesn't expand.

Our current Rottie doesn't drool much, but he does get a runny nose and watery eyes when he eats wasabi. [Big Grin]

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Seraphina
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quote:
Originally posted by Nurple:
I have heard that poor breeding has resulted in too-small brain pans for many breeds, especially smaller ones such as Yorkies. I haven't ever heard that it causes the dogs to turn on their owners, but it can cause seizures and many other health problems like that. I will try to see if I can find some info on that.
In my opinion, the bottom line is that we need to stop these puppy mills and backyard breeders that practice irresponsible breeding.

Sorry, but that is just a total rubbish; how do you think that irresponsible breeding by puppy mills and backyard breeders can affect the size of dogs heads or brains?
Puppy mills and other people producing large number of pups, which often end up dumped should be stopped. But lets just stick to the facts.

There are enough inherited problems in dogs happily bred on by the "responsible", top show winning, breeders. I got myself in a hot water on one of the dog forums when I suggested that male dogs should have fully descended testicles at birth, or at least within the first few weeks of their life.

And there are many dogs with bad temperament bred, just because they win in the ring.

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Rogue1stclass
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How does a skull shrink? It's not just a balloon you can let air out of, it's made of bone. I suppose it's possible for the minerals in the bone to not get replaced, but if that's going on, your dog will have bigger problems than a bad temper.
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Malruhn
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Playing the OP's game, and trying to answer Rogue's question, the skull couldn't officially "shrink". The only way to make the brain pan smaller would be for additional bone layer to be built up inside the skull - almost like calcification or arthritic build-up of the joints.

That being said, I have NEVER heard of any bone system (skull) being able to do that. It couldn't start until the bones are legitimately set and done growing (about two years old for a big dog), and the phenominon would be reported in major circles by now.

I vote crazy theory with no basis in science.

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Llewtrah
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There's a similar "skull squeezes brain" myth about lurchers (border collie x greyhound cross, a true poacher's lurcher allegedly being mean and vicious as a result) and it's sometimes said about border collies as a way of explaining their obsessive traits. A friend's border collie obsessively herds the children in the garden. It used to be amusing, but the only way to let his kids and their friends play normally is to confine the dog.

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Jay Tea
The "Was on Sale" Song


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A lurcher is a cross between a Greyhound or any other sight-dogs such as the Saluki, Whippet, Borzoi , Afghan Hound, Irish Wolfhound, Deerhound etc and 'any' other dog - but yes, favoured by poachers, their name comes from the Roman for 'theif' - 'Lur'

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Red Squirrel
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quote:
Originally posted by Nurple:
I have heard that poor breeding has resulted in too-small brain pans for many breeds, especially smaller ones such as Yorkies. I haven't ever heard that it causes the dogs to turn on their owners, but it can cause seizures and many other health problems like that. I will try to see if I can find some info on that.
In my opinion, the bottom line is that we need to stop these puppy mills and backyard breeders that practice irresponsible breeding.

The puppy farms will exist so long as idiots care more for how a dog looks and its pedigree than its health and suitability to own. Education and less snobbery is needed.

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nurple
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quote:
Originally posted by Seraphina:
quote:
Originally posted by Nurple:
I have heard that poor breeding has resulted in too-small brain pans for many breeds, especially smaller ones such as Yorkies. I haven't ever heard that it causes the dogs to turn on their owners, but it can cause seizures and many other health problems like that. I will try to see if I can find some info on that.
In my opinion, the bottom line is that we need to stop these puppy mills and backyard breeders that practice irresponsible breeding.

Sorry, but that is just a total rubbish; how do you think that irresponsible breeding by puppy mills and backyard breeders can affect the size of dogs heads or brains?
Puppy mills and other people producing large number of pups, which often end up dumped should be stopped. But lets just stick to the facts.

There are enough inherited problems in dogs happily bred on by the "responsible", top show winning, breeders. I got myself in a hot water on one of the dog forums when I suggested that male dogs should have fully descended testicles at birth, or at least within the first few weeks of their life.

And there are many dogs with bad temperament bred, just because they win in the ring.

The difference, however, is that a backyard breeder or puppy mill will CONTINUE to breed an animal with a fault or health problem because they can turn a profit. A responsible breeder will not. Have you ever heard of "tea cup" Yorkies or Chihauhaus? That small size is a fault or a defect that should not be carried down. A responsible breeder does genetic testing to do what they can to ensure that their puppies do not have problems like that. If one of the puppies has an inherited defect, they stop breeding that sire or dam.
here
here
here
and here

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Seraphina
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quote:
Originally posted by E-ville Nurple:
The difference, however, is that a backyard breeder or puppy mill will CONTINUE to breed an animal with a fault or health problem because they can turn a profit. A responsible breeder will not. A responsible breeder does genetic testing to do what they can to ensure that their puppies do not have problems like that. If one of the puppies has an inherited defect, they stop breeding that sire or dam.
here
here
here
and here [/QB]

Well, actually, my daughter has a teacup Chihuahua. We did not know she is going to be so small (she is about 1.3kg), but she is 8 years old now and quite healthy. She came from well known reputable breeder.
Do not confuse general health and inherited diorders. As far as genetic testing goes it is not so simple. EVERY individual has some recessive genes for some disorder, if you would really eliminate every animal carrying them you would have nothing to breed on. Some breeds have so many inherited disorders that many people believe there is nothing can be done to save the breed. Some things you can test for, others you cannot, and you would have to be a billionaire to test for everything. The inherited diseases are more likely to become obvious in inbred animals and most of the reputable breeders line breed, some inbreed. What exactly the puppy mills and backyard breeders are doing is anybody's guess, some may not inbreed, others do, but most of them started with stock from some reputable breeder.
I AM NOT DEFENDIND PUPPY FARMS, I think they should be banned. Dogs live misserable lifes in them, and their pups are more likely to be sick from viral or bacterial infections.


Here in Australia, we have just a new law proposed that anybody selling or giving away dog or cat has to de-sex them first. Registered breeder selling registered pups would be exempted. That should help to reduce numbers of backyard breeders.

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DakotaPride
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Ok, slight hijack here, but I'm curious as heck to what Seraphina meant by this?


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Seraphina:
I got myself in a hot water on one of the dog forums when I suggested that male dogs should have fully descended testicles at birth, or at least within the first few weeks of their life.

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gizard
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quote:
Originally posted by snopes:
Comment: Do the skulls of Doberman Pinschers, because of poor breeding,
shrink with age, squeezing their brains which causes them to turn on their
owners?

A brain under such pressure would kill the dog. Urban legend that is spread way too often on different animals.
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nurple
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quote:
Originally posted by Seraphina:
Well, actually, my daughter has a teacup Chihuahua. We did not know she is going to be so small (she is about 1.3kg), but she is 8 years old now and quite healthy. She came from well known reputable breeder.
Do not confuse general health and inherited diorders. As far as genetic testing goes it is not so simple. EVERY individual has some recessive genes for some disorder, if you would really eliminate every animal carrying them you would have nothing to breed on. Some breeds have so many inherited disorders that many people believe there is nothing can be done to save the breed. Some things you can test for, others you cannot, and you would have to be a billionaire to test for everything. The inherited diseases are more likely to become obvious in inbred animals and most of the reputable breeders line breed, some inbreed. What exactly the puppy mills and backyard breeders are doing is anybody's guess, some may not inbreed, others do, but most of them started with stock from some reputable breeder.
I AM NOT DEFENDIND PUPPY FARMS, I think they should be banned. Dogs live misserable lifes in them, and their pups are more likely to be sick from viral or bacterial infections.
Here in Australia, we have just a new law proposed that anybody selling or giving away dog or cat has to de-sex them first. Registered breeder selling registered pups would be exempted. That should help to reduce numbers of backyard breeders.

I am not confusing general health and inherited disorders. You, perhaps, are confused by the point I am attempting to make. In regards to "teacup" puppies, sure, there will always be runts of a litter. However, a bad breeder will purposely try to breed 2 runts to have more "teacups" to sell, which poses a risk of passing on the problems that many runts have. A BAD breeder breeds for money; a GOOD breeder breeds for the love of a breed and to improve the breed.
You said
quote:
The inherited diseases are more likely to become obvious in inbred animals and most of the reputable breeders line breed, some inbreed.
Emphasis mine.
That is completely false. What precisely is your definition of "reputable"? Responsible breeders NEVER inbreed. Responsible breeders stop a line as soon as a defect is detected. Responsible breeders do an extensive family history when choosing a sire or dam to breed with their own.

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Trixie Tang
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A lot of this crap would stop if people would get their pets from the pound. Some of the smartest dogs are mutts because they are not inbred. And yes, every pure bred dog is inbred on some level. That's what makes them pure bred.
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JR
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Yes. From the pound I get an unknown quantity, perhaps even a heavily inbred unknown quantity.

From one of those evil reputable breeders I get a dog with genetic soundness guarantees, X-rays, and temperment test.

Yup, that pound puppy gamble is *soooo* much better than buying from a reputable breeder.


How many "mutts" do you see in Schutzhund? Police work? Assistance dogs? If pound dogs are so superior than shouldn't they be in high demand for this work?

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Seraphina
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quote:
Originally posted by E-ville Nurple:

However, a bad breeder will purposely try to breed 2 runts to have more "teacups" to sell, which poses a risk of passing on the problems that many runts have. A BAD breeder breeds for money; a GOOD breeder breeds for the love of a breed and to improve the breed.
You said
quote:
The inherited diseases are more likely to become obvious in inbred animals and most of the reputable breeders line breed, some inbreed.
Emphasis mine.
That is completely false. What precisely is your definition of "reputable"? Responsible breeders NEVER inbreed. Responsible breeders stop a line as soon as a defect is detected. Responsible breeders do an extensive family history when choosing a sire or dam to breed with their own. [/QB][/QUOTE]

[I][/I] Well. I have been breeding and showing dogs for over 30 years, and I can tell you I have studied hundreds of pedigrees, most are pretty inbred. I have seen a pedigree where the sire was also the grand sire, as well as the great grandsire. What I mean is this dog was bred first to his daughter and then to his granddaughter, who was also his daughter. And if you go back far enough you will find some connection between just about any 2 dogs of the same breed. There is always some famous sire that was bred to every bitch around. If this dog carries a gene for some illness, lot of his ancestors will also have it, so it is futile to stop breeding just from the pair who had an affected pup, you would have to wipe out hundreds of individuals from breeding programs. But a wide genetic testing does not happen until many dogs of a particular breed are affected, and this disease becomes accepted as being prevalent in this breed.

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Seraphina
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quote:
Originally posted by Trixie Tang:
A lot of this crap would stop if people would get their pets from the pound. Some of the smartest dogs are mutts because they are not inbred. And yes, every pure bred dog is inbred on some level. That's what makes them pure bred.

Cross bred dogs are often just a mixture of 2 pure bred dogs, which may have been heavily inbred. The only differnce is that you do not really know what is behind them. Buyers of a crossbred puppy often get something they did not bagain for. My mother in law just had a big heartbreak; last X mass she bought a supposedly Jack russel terrier pup from the pound, it turned into giant labradorX, knocking the old lady to the ground and had to be given away.
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Seraphina
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by DakotaPride:
[QB] Ok, slight hijack here, but I'm curious as heck to what Seraphina meant by this?
QUOTE]Originally posted by Seraphina:
I got myself in a hot water on one of the dog forums when I suggested that male dogs should have fully descended testicles at birth, or at least within the first few weeks of their life.

Most mammalian males are born with descended testicles (except elephants who keep theirs inside their bodies etc). Undescended testicles are a problem; if they do not come down there is an elevated possibility of cancer, as well as reduced fertility. Standard for every breed clearly states that males have to have 2 apparently normal testicles fully descended into a scrotum. Yet this is now a huge problem in many breeds everywhere in the world, what upsets me that it is widely accepted as normal for pups’ testicles not coming down for months, even couple of years. To me this indicates an underlying hormonal problem.

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JR
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I hazard that undescended testicles are about as common in dogs as they are in people. It's polygenetic, so inbreeding would have to be pretty severe. Linebreeding is not inbreeding.

In humans the doctors don't consider it a cause for concern until after one year of age.


Ah, found some stats:

Dogs: 2.1%
Cats: 3.8%
Humans: 3%

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Seraphina
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quote:
Originally posted by JR:
I hazard that undescended testicles are about as common in dogs as they are in people. It's polygenetic, so inbreeding would have to be pretty severe. Linebreeding is not inbreeding.

In humans the doctors don't consider it a cause for concern until after one year of age.


Ah, found some stats:

Dogs: 2.1%
Cats: 3.8%
Humans: 3%

According to my info in some breeds problems with undescended testicles are up to 17%. The difficulty is for breeders to admit to it, so if a survey comes up with 17% I would suspect it to be much higher. In humans it is not a great problem, it is easily corrected by a simple op and as the boy is not going to marry his sister or cousin it is not likely to be a problem in the next generations. But dogs are bred to close relatives. The development of testes is governed by complicated system of various hormones.
Strictly speaking linebred dog is inbred. Linebreeding reduces genetic variety, that is what each breeder is trying to achieve, a line of animals which all look the same.

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Seraphina
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Back to shrinking dobe skulls, this is a site listing various inherited diseases in various breeds;
link for Dobes;

http://www.upei.ca/cidd/breeds/doberman2.htm

index of breeds

http://handicappedpets.com/genetic/breeds.htm

cannot see anything that looks like a shrinking skull, but they do have enough serious problems to cause bit of a headache

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Llewtrah
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quote:
A lurcher is a cross between a Greyhound or any other sight-dogs such as the Saluki, Whippet, Borzoi , Afghan Hound, Irish Wolfhound, Deerhound etc and 'any' other dog - but yes, favoured by poachers, their name comes from the Roman for 'theif' - 'Lur'
The traveller (I won't use the g-word) lurchers round these parts seem to be border collie x greyhound. The travellers also do hare coursing and some are apparently heavily involved in greyhound racing, both regulated and unregulated. The theory is that lurchers get the greyhound's speed and the collie's intelligence.

It used to be said that the ones that got the collie's intelligence and the greyhound's speed went really fast. Those that got the collie's speed and the greyhound's intelligence went even faster, but only in weighted sacks off a bridge [Frown] (the other day I drove into work and yet again one of their unkempt horses had escaped and gotten killed on the dual carriageway, the dogs don't seem to be any better cared for)

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DakotaPride
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quote:
Originally posted by Seraphina:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by DakotaPride:
[QB] Ok, slight hijack here, but I'm curious as heck to what Seraphina meant by this?
QUOTE]Originally posted by Seraphina:
I got myself in a hot water on one of the dog forums when I suggested that male dogs should have fully descended testicles at birth, or at least within the first few weeks of their life.

Most mammalian males are born with descended testicles (except elephants who keep theirs inside their bodies etc). Undescended testicles are a problem; if they do not come down there is an elevated possibility of cancer, as well as reduced fertility. Standard for every breed clearly states that males have to have 2 apparently normal testicles fully descended into a scrotum. Yet this is now a huge problem in many breeds everywhere in the world, what upsets me that it is widely accepted as normal for pups’ testicles not coming down for months, even couple of years. To me this indicates an underlying hormonal problem.

I agree with you that if the testicles are not decended by one year, theres a problem. The information I have states The testicles usually decend at 6 to 8 weeks, and some up to 6 months. I find this to be the norm, and not a hormonal problem. But that's not the main point I wanted to make.
You stated that you studied a pedagree with alot of inbreeding. That goes right back to the main point of not being a responible breeder.
Unfortunately, selective breeding has resulted in a large number of defects and dieases in different breeds that are accepted as part of the breed package. But with controlled(responsible) informed breeding, this can be eliminated, if not, controlled.
So until people stop breeding for a buck,(puppy mills, backyard breeders) letting their unfixed pets run, there are going to be defective pups, and unwanted pups.

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DakotaPride
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Strictly speaking linebred dog is inbred. Linebreeding reduces genetic variety, that is what each breeder is trying to achieve, a line of animals which all look the same. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Yes, *linebreeding is a form of inbreeding, but again with control,Close breeding for three to four generations (linebreeding) fixes a type in a line. Outcrossing(bringing in new blood) is then done to "reshuffle" the genes.
This is done with alot of research,and knowledge of the breed stanard, and goes back to my main point..being responible.

*(Line breeding is not breeding father to daughter, sister to brother, more like grandfather to granddaughter)

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chocolate-martini
Baby 100 Grand


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When you buy a dog that's strong enough to harm another human being just research the breeder, the breed and then decide. My dobie's a suck, she's the sweetest, the cutest and wouldn't hurt a fly. She's my second one and I wouldn't even consider another breed.


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richard b.
If you're gonna scream, scream with me.


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quote:
Originally posted by emperor_genghis_khan:
Yes and beware very soon all dogs skulls shall be shrunk and they will take over the world.

[fish]

i, for one, welcome our anacephalic canine overlords.
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JR
We Three Blings


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If undescended testicles are a "problem" (high percentages) for a line, then obviously there is inbreeding (because it's polygenetic). But you stated that it was a huge problem for many breeds, and I haven't heard of it being a problem in the breeds that I'm familiar with... I don't pay much attention to toy breeds, for instance.

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Semper ubi sub ubi

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lazerus the duck
The First USA Noel


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A little OT. Round my way there is the typical chav (do americans know what a chav is?), and to look hard he got this rottweiller.
Now picture the scene chav on bus, rottweiller with chain leash that could bind cerberus itself rolling on his back in the isle of the bus to get his tummy tickled by the old ladies sitting there. All the time chav trying to pull the dog to heel while still trying to look hard.
I've seen few funnier scenes than that.

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All the world's a face, And all the men and women merely acne.

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Mistletoey Chloe
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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Ha! NewDog's command to roll over is "Show me the tummy!" I defy anyone to fear a dog who responds to that...

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~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~

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