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Author Topic: The Shrinking Doberman
Mistletoey Chloe
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Ha! NewDog's command to roll over is "Show me the tummy!" I defy anyone to fear a dog who responds to that...

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Seraphina
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quote:
Originally posted by DakotaPride:
I agree with you that if the testicles are not decended by one year, theres a problem. The information I have states The testicles usually decend at 6 to 8 weeks, and some up to 6 months. I find this to be the norm, and not a hormonal problem. [/QB]

Are we talking about dogs or people? Are we talking about it being a problem for a pet dog (which it is only to the point that castration will be more complicated and expensive) or a potential sire?
Until a decade ago I have NEVER seen a newborn male puppy without descended testes, by that time I would have whelped close to 50 male pups and i have also seen number of pups bred by friends. Then I started to hear that some breeds do not get their testes down until week or so after birth. Now it is quite acceptable to come down 6-8 weeks after birth. If you look at the embryo development from conception to birth you understand that it all is controlled by hormones. Both female and male embryo starts the same, then each sex releases different hormones and they cause certain cells to develop either into testicles or ovaries etc. Different hormones are released in a different time of a development and if sudenly certain development is not hapening it means that something is out of whack. And i would not knowingly use a stud dog who did not have his testicles descended and properly formed before he was 6 weeks old.

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Chimera
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I actually got my English bulldog around 6 months old because he was abandoned because his balls hadn't dropped (a vet had even tried to massage them down or something, not quite sure but it sounded pretty icky). Anyway it was really sad that, what I assume to be, a perfectly health (even full bred) dog would be kicked to the curb because it didn't have the balls to compete. Although, shortly after getting the snotty, drooling, gaseous dog I can understand why the breed might be undesirable (not to mention the breathing problems and sensitivity to heat... why anyone would intentionally create such a creature is beyond me).

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"The question for joining the protected forum for real magicians should be:

What is the use of women?"
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Seraphina
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quote:
Originally posted by JR:
If undescended testicles are a "problem" (high percentages) for a line, then obviously there is inbreeding (because it's polygenetic). But you stated that it was a huge problem for many breeds, and I haven't heard of it being a problem in the breeds that I'm familiar with... I don't pay much attention to toy breeds, for instance.

No not toy breeds, my interest is in sighthounds.
There is a very comprehensive study being done in Sweden, for over past 15(?) years, and at least for this particular breed the situation was even worse in the USA. The Swedish study is still continuing and by importing heavily they have managed to reduce incidents by quite a bit (half?).

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Seraphina
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quote:
Originally posted by Chimera:
I actually got my English bulldog around 6 months old because he was abandoned because his balls hadn't dropped (a vet had even tried to massage them down or something, not quite sure but it sounded pretty icky). Anyway it was really sad that, what I assume to be, a perfectly health (even full bred) dog would be kicked to the curb because it didn't have the balls to compete. Although, shortly after getting the snotty, drooling, gaseous dog I can understand why the breed might be undesirable (not to mention the breathing problems and sensitivity to heat... why anyone would intentionally create such a creature is beyond me).

Bulldogs and other extremely exagerated breeds all bred by the reponsible breeders... do not get me strated on this one!!! you never shut me up [Big Grin]
Especially bulldogs with huge heads and shoulders and tiny hips which makes them almost impossible to give birth naturally. the standard requirements for a bulldog is just a list of deformities. [Frown]
Although, i do find it difficult to understand that somebody would dump a 6 months old pup just because his missing balls, they should have been able to castrate him and sell him to a pet home for several thousands of dollars. [Confused]

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Chimera
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My vet didn't think it mattered much if the testicles had decended or not if the dog was to be neutered. Something that can be done regardless of where the dog is storing his nuts.

I do think that many mutts are healthier. However, as others have mentioned you know what your getting (more or less) when you get a pedigree. I've known people offering free puppies to a free home, claiming they were all male (when they were actually all female). I actually got a puppy from a "free to..." person before and they pushed it as being a small male dog. My father, and the vet confirmed it was a bitch/female (at least I hope it was since we got her spade) and she grew into a rather large animal. I think the people were misleading about the animals they were offering... and/or had no clue to what the animals were. I do find several desirable traits that seem common in certain breeds. My family and/or I (anyone in my family that owns a home) have always owned at least one German Shepherd. They seem to train well and seem to intemidate people (while still making good, inteligent companion animals).

However, even with pedigree animals there are still shelter/rescue animals. I got my bulldog because it couldn't make it as a show dog. It was a bit of a misunderstanding on what bull dog meant but such breeds are still available for small adoption fees. There is a local bulldog rescue (it seems to take in any breed with bull or dog in the name). When I first started looking into it I was thinking of something along the lines of a minature Boston Terrier (which they clasify as a bull dog), sadly I got attracted by an ad for a Bull Mastif. The rescue list the reason its at the shelter. Sometimes its just the owner or breeder passed away, other times its for behavioural, physical, or other problems. The bull I went to see had a digging problem and had already had two previous owners. I felt sorry for the dog. I figured dogs dig... what I didn't figure was the "dog" might weigh about as much as I did... bull mastif, not a good fit. That's when a was shown what would become my ball-less bulldog. (Even though the first thing my six month old English Bull did was jump on me and knock me on my butt when I bent down to great it. It was young, but it was a solid little thing... much like an excited cannon ball.)

There are many rescues. German Shepherds often need homes when they come slightly short of making it as service animals. You can get a full bred and often well trained animal for a small adoption fee (about the same as other shelters that "gaurentee" a healthy, immunized pet) by contacting breed specific adoption groups. Just because it has a pedigree doesn't mean its desired. Anyone want a greyhound?

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"The question for joining the protected forum for real magicians should be:

What is the use of women?"
Steve W. from JREF's 'This is no fun'

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Seraphina
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quote:
Originally posted by DakotaPride:


*(Line breeding is not breeding father to daughter, sister to brother, more like grandfather to granddaughter)

Yes, my grandfather has explained that to me when he took me to my first dog show, I was 6 y.o. and that was more than 50 years ago.
The point is that line bred animals do have limited gene pool.
Especially here, in Australia we are far away from the rest of the world, have complicated quarantine laws and requirements, so it is very expensive to import animals. it is almost impossible to truly outcross. Every now and then somebody brings over a lovely dog but then he gets put over every bitch around and therefore is in everybody's pedigree, somewhere.
And YES, of-course it is better to get a puppy from people who try to do the right things by the breed. However, people may have the best intentions, it does not mean they actually achieve what they aim for. And how do you know the person who is just a good spin-doctor from one who is for real? I know "respectable" breeders who I would not sell a pet rock, I watch them ringside charming potential puppy buyers with words very much like those you use, plus guarantees and legal contracts.

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Cervus
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quote:
Originally posted by Chimera:
I actually got a puppy from a "free to..." person before and they pushed it as being a small male dog. My father, and the vet confirmed it was a bitch/female (at least I hope it was since we got her spade) and she grew into a rather large animal. I think the people were misleading about the animals they were offering... and/or had no clue to what the animals were.

"Boys have a penis, girls have a vagina." [Razz]

Seriously, though, how could you pick up a puppy and not be able to see if it had a penis or not? You had to have a vet confirm this?

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Chimera
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quote:
Originally posted by Cervus:
quote:
Originally posted by Chimera:
I actually got a puppy from a "free to..." person before and they pushed it as being a small male dog. My father, and the vet confirmed it was a bitch/female (at least I hope it was since we got her spade) and she grew into a rather large animal. I think the people were misleading about the animals they were offering... and/or had no clue to what the animals were.

"Boys have a penis, girls have a vagina." [Razz]

Seriously, though, how could you pick up a puppy and not be able to see if it had a penis or not? You had to have a vet confirm this?

I guess I thought the pet owners knew animals better than I did. They kept saying all the remaining pupies were males and my dad keep picking up all the puppies saying they females. I'm no expert so I went with the pet owners opinion until I took the thing to the vet to get it fixed and found out she was a little bitch.

Hey they were little puppies... I thought they might have had a little something in hiding.

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"The question for joining the protected forum for real magicians should be:

What is the use of women?"
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JR
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Our current Rottie is a rescue, probably backyard bred (which is not necessarily bad breeding, but it can be), and boy, does he have issues.

However, his issues aren't genetic, and he's perfectly physically sound. He just needs a shrink.

Here, let me show him off...

 -

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DakotaPride
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Seraphina:
[QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by DakotaPride:
[qb]


and YES, of-course it is better to get a puppy from people who try and do the right things by the breed.
Thank you, That's my point
and how do you know the person who is just a good spin-doctor from one who is real?
The proof is in the pudding. If they pratice responsible breeding, it will show in their dogs
I watch them ringside charming potential puppy buyers with words very much like those you use
Not sure what you mean by this, but if you're assuming I breed, I don't. I do however, see the products of irrespondsible breeding almost daily.

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DakotaPride
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Jr, I love your dog!
Sounds like I may be fostering a Rott here shortly, and I'm excited about it, they sure are beautiful animals.

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JR
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It's "JR" as in "Who shot...", not as in "Junior". I don't care if anyone mis-spells it, so long as they remember that I'm *nobody's* "junior". [Wink]

Ever handled a Rottie before? If not, there are some things you should know.

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DakotaPride
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no I haven't, any info would be great!
From what I know, the dog was left behind when her owners skipped out on rent. She seems to be very well behaved..so far.

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JR
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1) OK, Rotties are dominant and stubborn dogs. Even the sweetest ones will try to get the upper paw. Be very confident and let her know who's boss, don't let her get away with anything. Seriously, they are bastards. <3

2) Rotties are pretty much immune to physical discipline... they just don't notice it. It's actually one of their more charming features, that ability to not notice that they've just piled into a brick wall head first. [Big Grin] They will, however, do anything for food and they crave attention. So rewards are simple, praise and treats, but for correction you are stuck with harsh language and getting creative. I found that a snoutful of vinegar (rubbed under the nose, that is) is marvelously corrective on my little jackass, but he's a hardcase. Our last Rottie would sulk if you said "Bad dog!", so it really depends on the dog.

3) They are very physical dogs, and they are pretty forward with their attentions. Don't be put off if she head butts, leans on you, etc, it's meant as affection.

4) Rottweilers are noted for gender dominance, even aggression. Be careful introducing her to other female dogs. I know that you will be careful with her, but be on the look out especially for this.

5) Rotties don't bark much, usually, but they are very verbal. So grumbling is normal, but not to be encouraged, except when savaging a chew toy.


If you have any issues with her, PM me. Rottweilers are not recommended as a first dog for anyone, they need a firm, steady hand. If her former owners trained and handled her properly then you shouldn't have any problems, though... except for the "120 lb lap dog" thing.

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Seraphina
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quote:
Originally posted by Cervus:
d/or had no clue to what the animals were. [/qb]

"Boys have a penis, girls have a vagina." [Razz]

[/QB][/QUOTE]

I once lived next door to a doctor, who brought home two pups and told me they are females, i pointed out that they both have very prominent testicles, as well as pertfectly normal penis. He still did not believe me. They did change their names though, after a visit to a vet [Smile]
I think when people go to buy their pet dog they have certain amount of respect for the breeder, trust him/her to tell the truth and expect them to know more about animals than they do. Unfortunately, it does not always work that way.

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Seraphina
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quote:
Originally posted by JR:
Our current Rottie is a rescue, probably backyard bred (which is not necessarily bad breeding, but it can be), and boy, does he have issues.



 -

He is a handsome dog JR. Many backyard breeders start with stock from the "proper" breeders, and most of the dogs they breed are sold as pets. Wherever you dog came from originally, it sounds as his problems were created by his previous owners.
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DakotaPride
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Thanks for the info JR.
From what you discribed, it reminded me of a colt I have. He's a mini, so he's about the size of a rott.I've picked myself up several times due to his affection for me.
I have fostered shepards, collies, labs and a St Bernard and this is my first rottie.
I should hear today when I'll be able to get her.
I have 2 dachshund females that can be pretty snotty,(they seems to think they are great danes) so I won't be having any intro's anytime soon.
As far as grumbling, it will be a welcome change coming from a dog! [lol]

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Llewtrah
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
"Boys have a penis, girls have a vagina."
I've seen plenty of cats come into a shelter described as one gender, but turning out to be the other. A "very pregnant female" admitted late one night turned out to be a fat male (staff hadn't checked, they'd just taken the owner's word about the cat's gender and pregnancy).

One of the cats at the shelter managed to confuse the vet in this respect. It was the first time in umpteen years of small animal practice that he'd seen an intersex cat. It had confused the heck out of shelter staff. I didn't get to see it and the only other info I have is that it was a brown Burmese and is now considered a neutered male.

When mum's friend was a youngster, her grand-dad (who bred rabbits and poultry for the pot) told her that you check if something is a boy or a girl by looking behind the ears.

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I saw Mommy kismet Santa Claus
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When I was 15, I babysat for a single neighbor woman with a toddler son. One day I went over and she had gotten a 10 week old kitten. The lady said she needed to go to the vet to find out if it was a boy or girl, but they thought it was a girl.

I picked it up and told her it was a boy. She was so impressed that I had this skill. It had furry little testicles, this was not a challenge. I was wondering how she managed to create a child if her knowledge of mammal anatomy was so limited.

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Brad from Georgia
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Originally posted by Seraphina:
quote:

I once lived next door to a doctor, who brought home two pups and told me they are females, i pointed out that they both have very prominent testicles, as well as pertfectly normal penis. He still did not believe me. They did change their names though, after a visit to a vet [Smile]
....

A case of the penis, mightier than the word, I guess.

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Seraphina
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quote:
Originally posted by kismet:
When I was 15, I babysat for a single neighbor woman with a toddler son. One day I went over and she had gotten a 10 week old kitten. The lady said she needed to go to the vet to find out if it was a boy or girl, but they thought it was a girl.

I picked it up and told her it was a boy. She was so impressed that I had this skill. It had furry little testicles, this was not a challenge. I was wondering how she managed to create a child if her knowledge of mammal anatomy was so limited.

Kittens and even cats can be confusing, sometimes the female do have a bit of a bump where the testes ought to be. I know breeders of purebred show cats who had some very embarassing moments entering kitten in the wrong sex class!
Many years ago a co-worker told me they bought a puppy (purebred with papers) being told it is a bitch but they are not sure. I went to look at it thinking how can anybody be so ignorant. Well, this thing had something that vaguelly resambled bitch's vulva, but it was positioned about half way between the spot the female external ought to be and where the tip of penis would be. No sign of testes. It was not boy not girl, without internal examination it was impossible to tell if it has undescended testicles or ovaries.
But after that I am always bit careful making fun of people for not sexing animals correctly [Big Grin]
Except for the doctor who should definitely know beteer.

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Seraphina
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OOOOps double posted
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JR
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I used to have a next door neighbour that was a chicken sexer. It paid well, as good chicken sexers are hard to find. (I leave it up to other snopsters to provide the risque comments)

If you think things with fur are bad, imagine trying to determine the gender of 3 day old chicks (Remember, birds have internal 'nads)

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DakotaPride
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One thing with sexing chickens at 3 days, its the feathers on the wing that tells the sex. (Can't remember exactly which) It's not 100%, but better then looking up the...well, you know.
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Anyte
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I come from a mutt-having family. The dog my parents have had since I was a child (the dog is now nearly fifteen and recently diagnosed with leukemia) is a female, spayed, shi-tzu/sheltie mix. My own dog is rottie/german shepherd/possibly something else and was adopted from the humane society. Lucky in my case, she was full grown when I got her, so no surprises there. She's very sweet tempered. My sister's dog is also a mutt. She's part...something and um...well, she's 100% dog.

I have a certain affection for mixed breed dogs. But I don't believe for a second they have any sort of genetic superiority. Any dog, mixed or pure bred, can have health and personality flaws. Being one generation removed from the so-called "in-bred" pure line isn't going to solve that. It's completely possible for a mix to have the flaws of both breeds and the good qualities of neither.

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westie lover
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I haven't met many dogs I didn't like - both mixed and pure breds. In my opinion, dogs are like weekends and diamonds - even the worst of them having something to offer.

Even so, for 35 years my longtime companions are purebreed West Highland White Terriers. They are a known quantity, size, temperament, etc. I'm also familiar with physical limitations, genetic abnormalities, and performance levels. Also, if there's anything more fun to watch than a flyball contest, I don't know what it is and Westies excel, expecially at being the anchor dog!

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JR
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quote:
Originally posted by westie lover:
I haven't met many dogs I didn't like - both mixed and pure breds. In my opinion, dogs are like weekends and diamonds - even the worst of them having something to offer.

You haven't dealt with some of the weekends I've had... or diamonds. [Wink]

quote:
Also, if there's anything more fun to watch than a flyball contest, I don't know what it is
Rottweiler-as-crash-test-dummy is pretty frickin' hilarious... but it's hard on the walls. [Big Grin]

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DakotaPride
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I haven't met many dogs I didn't like - both mixed and pure breds. In my opinion, dogs are like weekends and diamonds - even the worst of them having something to offer.

I love this statement, and so true!

I was suppose to foster a rottie female, but she was adopted almost right away. I'm glad for her, kinda sad for me!
I did get a lead on a litter of Rotties pups that I may just go and take a peek at.

edited due to cold meds...

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snopes
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Comment: There is an odd belief wandering
around that a friend heard from two different people on the same day
stating that Newfoundland and Doberman pinscher dogs have brains that are
too big for their skulls, causing them intense pain; so the dogs need to
be euthanized.

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Pando Raspox
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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quote:
Originally posted by JR:


How many "mutts" do you see in Schutzhund? Police work? Assistance dogs? If pound dogs are so superior than shouldn't they be in high demand for this work?

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Schutzhund was originally used for the German Shepard breed only. Did you know, breeders used to kill pure white shepard puppies due to the fault? Then, they proceed to breed an over pronounced slope to the dog-a slope to the back that naturally made it a long distance jogging ability in the dog. "Breeders" developed it to the point of dysplasia and arthitis. I took my dog through Schutzhund training (a Great Dane). They test for things like temperment, indurance AND must have hip joint certification. Why? Because of problems breeders give to breeds. Every pure breed dog has some type of health problem-some too many to count. I now have a non papered pitbull mix (neutered) that is smarter, healthier and emotionally milder than any dog I've trained or owned. But, due to restrictions of the AKC, meant to improve the "breed" of a dog, I can't show him in obedience for title. Give me a break, it isn't because of better breeding in a pure bred dog versus a pound puppy that you don't see "mutts" in Schutzhund. You are mistaken though, some "mutts" are in "assistance" jobs.

Posts: 22 | From: Las Vegas, NV | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Pando Raspox
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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When I was growing up, we had dobermans. One we had to euthanize because of a problem with her brain. She did begin to be aggressive due to the pain she was in. We noticed her head was starting to sink in, in places. My dad-a veterinarian-did the necropsy. Her brain had actually shrunk and the skull was soft in spots. I forget the correct term for the diagnosis though. But growning too big for the cavity? I doubt it, unless it's some form of cancer one particular dog, or dog's from the same family had, and the story turned into a UL.
Posts: 22 | From: Las Vegas, NV | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Franny
Jingle Bell Hock


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Is it just me or does anyone else think its funny that we are talking about allegedly shrinking brains and descending testicles? Funny enough these two subjects just happened to show up together.

Franny- Down with balls, up with brains?!?

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I've been waiting here for like 20 minutes.

"It's you, but distilled into one place." - JK. http://www.theheldhand.blogspot.com/

Posts: 505 | From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
curlygirl
Jingle Bell Hock


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Kind of the opposite of: Bats with large testicles have smaller brains

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"let them eat cake...and toast...and waffles...and cookies, don't forget the cookies"

Posts: 507 | From: Western Australia | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Seraphina
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by Pando Raspox:
When I was growing up, we had dobermans. One we had to euthanize because of a problem with her brain. She did begin to be aggressive due to the pain she was in. We noticed her head was starting to sink in, in places. My dad-a veterinarian-did the necropsy. Her brain had actually shrunk and the skull was soft in spots. I forget the correct term for the diagnosis though. But growning too big for the cavity? I doubt it, unless it's some form of cancer one particular dog, or dog's from the same family had, and the story turned into a UL.

Dogs do most certainly get brain tumors, and the growing tumor puts pressure on their brain, which makes the dog’s temperament unpredictable. Brain tumors are not breed specific, but it is possible that Dobe with tumor had to be PTS and started the UL.
Posts: 214 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
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