posted
I vaguely remember rearing this story on some newscast, I think probably on NPR, but I can't remember the details or if I'm even remembering the story correctly, so I'm hoping someone can fill in the details of correct me if I'm remembering it completely wrong.
The story I remember hearing is that some people figured out that that they can save money if they're flying from A to C with a layover in B by booking a flight from A to B, and then booking the flight from B to C seperately rather than booking the whole thing as one trip. The airline called this practice fraud and sued, saying if you're traveling from A to C you have to pay the fare for flying from A to C, not A to B + B to C.
It could have been that the airline was offering a special on flights to B, and the claim was that these passengers were not eligable for that fare since B was not their final destination.
Am I remembering that story correctly, or did my brain completely make it up?
-------------------- "Unseasonable is an odd word to begin with. It sounds like it's describing something that it's impossible to sprinkle pepper on." -- Nonny Posts: 5483 | From: Just south of Folsom Prison, CA | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
I believe you're remembering it well except for the fraud part. If it were fraud, it would be inter-state fraud and under the auspices of the FBI.
The airlines may have initiated a request with the FTC or FAA to inhibit the practice. That request may have had the F-word tossed in for hyperbole.
If a traveller can make these arrangements, there may be no way to stop him/her in today's market. Ticketing and checkin are done online so the airlines have no way of knowing where the traveler is when he/she buys the ticket.
- P
Posts: 1856 | From: Milwaukee, WI | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Originally posted by ParaDiddle: I believe you're remembering it well except for the fraud part. If it were fraud, it would be inter-state fraud and under the auspices of the FBI.
The airlines may have initiated a request with the FTC or FAA to inhibit the practice. That request may have had the F-word tossed in for hyperbole.
If a traveller can make these arrangements, there may be no way to stop him/her in today's market. Ticketing and checkin are done online so the airlines have no way of knowing where the traveler is when he/she buys the ticket.
- P
If they were suing for fraud it would be civil fraud; the FBI investigates criminal fraud. They are not the same thing. Civil fraud would be the most likely cause of action in a case like this, so I doubt that the OP is misremembering.
-------------------- 'Hello, assorted humanoid strangers. You are standing casually in our forest. This bewilders us.' Blatherskite Posts: 950 | From: Cincinnati, Ohio | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
I do it all the time on Southwest since you can only fly about 5 or 6 miles out of Dallas before infringing on the Wright amendment. They not only don't try to discourage me, but actually help me do it!
posted
I think the OP has it slightly wrong. It sounds like you are referring to 'hidden city' discounting which is pretty common.
Due to the way fares work it is often cheaper to book a ticket to a destination that is farther away than the desired destination. As and example, if B is along the path from A to C; a ticket between A anc C might be cheaper than a ticket from A to B. Someone can then book a ticket from A to C (with a stopover in B) and then get off the plane in B. In this case I believe the airlines can and have brought fraud charges.
posted
Sorry, I don't quite see how this hurts the airlines. If I buy a ticket for Jax to St Louis to Minneapolis and then 'miss' the connection to Minneapolis how is the airline losing anything? Seems to me they've just saved $1 on the free drink that I would've gotten on the second half of the flight and I've still paid for my seat, I'm just choosing not to sit in it. Wouldn't it serve their interests better to charge less for the jax to St Louis bit so that I wouldn't feel the need to overbook and they would have the chance to sell the St Louis to Minneapolis bit to someone else? (ex.: Total Trip: $100, 1st leg only: $65, 2nd leg only: $50)
I realize that this could be a breach of the ticket contract so I'm not debating the legality, only the practicality. Perhaps someone who understands the air travel system a bit better can explain how this actually hurts the airlines. I just don't really see what their issue is.
ETA: If they also object to the situation in the OP, I don't get that either.
-------------------- Conforming meant that everyone liked you except yourself Rebecca Posts: 682 | From: Jacksonville, FL | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Wow, that's really stupid. Does that mean that for example if a store has 16 oz bottles of apple juice on sale for each $.50 it's fraud to buy 4 instead of paying $2.99 for a half gallon bottle?
Posts: 2352 | From: California | Registered: May 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Wizard of Yendor: Wow, that's really stupid. Does that mean that for example if a store has 16 oz bottles of apple juice on sale for each $.50 it's fraud to buy 4 instead of paying $2.99 for a half gallon bottle?
Only if you go home and pour all 4 of them into a half gallon pitcher.
-------------------- Conforming meant that everyone liked you except yourself Rebecca Posts: 682 | From: Jacksonville, FL | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by BeachLife: I think the OP has it slightly wrong. It sounds like you are referring to 'hidden city' discounting which is pretty common....
Actually, I think maybe it was "back-to-back ticketing" I was thinking of.
quote:Another ticketing practice investigated by the GAO is known as back-to- back ticketing, where a passenger buys two round-trip discounted fares that include a Saturday night stay, but either uses only half the ticket coupons or uses all the coupons out of sequence. This often results in a total price that is cheaper than purchasing one round-trip ticket that does not include a Saturday stay.
ETA: Now that I think about, I think I heard the phrase "back-to-back ticketing" in a news report but missed the explanation of what it was, and guessed it meant what I described in the OP.
-------------------- "Unseasonable is an odd word to begin with. It sounds like it's describing something that it's impossible to sprinkle pepper on." -- Nonny Posts: 5483 | From: Just south of Folsom Prison, CA | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Hm, I'd be surprised if they were suing for fraud the way you described it - breaking one trip into two tickets. After all, what you do after you get off the plane is your own business, and in the strictest sense, the layover *is* a destination of yours.
I have heard the other way done though, as a more "tricky" way - rather than book a flight from A to B, get one from A to C with a layover on B and then not getting back on the plane in B. Some people have even suggested the same thing to get a cheaper flight from B to C, although I don't know if you can get a boarding pass at the second airport if you never show up at the first.
ETA: So totally spanked... that's what happens when your post gets interrupted by work.
Anyways, why the airline doesn't like it - the "market value" of a direct flight from A to B may be higher than A to C, even though A to C requires a stopover in B. They're mad because they wanted to charge you more for going A to B, and you thwarted them by lying about your destination. Hence the tendency for "who cares" from people who hear about this. This is because the costs relate to the demand, not the cost to the airline, so pricing is not what's expected.
Wizard: A better analogy, I think, would be buying a 6 pack of sodas and then only drinking 4. You should have bought four individual cans at $.75 rather than the 6-pack at $2.75 (on sale to move).
Posts: 441 | From: Between Flint and Lansing, MI | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Niner: Some people have even suggested the same thing to get a cheaper flight from B to C, although I don't know if you can get a boarding pass at the second airport if you never show up at the first.
Most airlines let you print your boarding pass from home now before you go to the airport, but it very well could raise some sort of flag if you try to board the second plane but were never on the first.
-------------------- "Unseasonable is an odd word to begin with. It sounds like it's describing something that it's impossible to sprinkle pepper on." -- Nonny Posts: 5483 | From: Just south of Folsom Prison, CA | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
I was tempted to do the Hidden City Discount but I was told by the airline when I called to ask if it was legal that they would have to search the plane for explosives if I did not get on the second leg. I am not sure that they really would but it is a valid concern.
posted
Isn't that only true if your second leg is on the same plane as the first? What about an airport where you're making a shift to a second plane? Are you obliged to get on it?
-------------------- ~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~ Posts: 10111 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
It wouldn't matter if you were on one plane that stopped or if you were supposed to switch planes. Since they transfer your luggage from one plane to the other, it would be transfered (if you checked any luggage) to the other plane*. If you didn't check any baggage, then no search would be required. But I would be surprised if airline security could actually identify if a certain passenger who didn't get on the plane did or did not have checked luggage.
*Unless you are flying into Dallas using Southwest. Then, the American Airlines-Anti Competition act requires you to get your luggage, buy a house, get a new driver's license, marry, and check your luggage in the connecting city.
-------------------- IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan Posts: 3694 | From: Arizona | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Return flights can often be cheaper than one ways. I drove a friend to her new home in city A and wanted to return to home city B. One-way flights were expensive, so I booked a return A-B-A flight, and simply didn't get on the return leg.
I did call and check, and was advised this was not "allowed". I have to admit being surprised they let me book a return flight A-B-A when I was in B before the car journey (before internet bookings).
-------------------- "We don't keep a certified whale-vomit expert on staff." - Larry Penny, Director, Natural Resources Department, Town of East Hampton Posts: 377 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by GenYus: But I would be surprised if airline security could actually identify if a certain passenger who didn't get on the plane did or did not have checked luggage.
Several times I have been on flights that were delayed because they were removing baggage that had been checked by someone who did not board the plane. Especially these days, I think they are very careful about matching checked luggage to specific passengers.
ETA: But it was a fairly minor delay. The airline Dewey talked to seemed to imply that it would be a major undertaking. I don't know if they searched for explosives, but if so, it didn't take very long.
Posts: 264 | From: Washington, DC | Registered: Nov 2002
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posted
Frankly, I simply fail to see how this can be a fraud. If the airlines has such a stupid price list, that is their responsibility.
Besides, how can they ever prove that I didn't have any business in B?
"Oh, I was going to see a blind date at the airport, but she didn't turn up."
"I remembered that airport to have a good collection of newspapers, I wanted to buy one."
"I've heard that the approach to B is so beautiful, I wanted to see it."
"The terminal at B has a sentimental value to me, I met my late wife there, so I try to pass through that way whenever I can."
As for lost luggage, I actually prefer it that way, at least when going home. I don't have to lug it to my home town. I don't have to carry it through the customs, hoping that they won't see through my poker face and find out I have a bottle of port wine too many. I just go home without it, and the next day (sometimes even the same day) it arrives at my door with a special delivery car. Handy.
-------------------- /Troberg Posts: 4360 | From: Borlänge, Sweden | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
HIdden city ticketing only really works one way. If you don't get on the plane for the connection your downline (return) space will be cancelled. When you show up at the airport to fly home, surprise, no reservations. Same as if you don't make the first leg. The connection will be cancelled as well. Not to mention if you check your bags at the first place, you'll not get them at the connection point.
I don't think back to back ticketing is problematic as long as you're actually taking the trips. I did it for a few clients when I was a travel agent. One had a series of M-F trips. Booked the first monday and the last friday as one long round trip. All the rest we books as Fri-Mon weekend trips. Perfectly valid and he flew all legs of it. I don't see that as illegal or fraud at all.
Airlines typically keep fares to hub cities higher to prevent much of the antics trying to break fares so it really isn't much of an issue.
Gibbie
-------------------- If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate. Posts: 3993 | From: Indiana | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
I've done it before where I've asked that my bags only get checked through to B. I do this at the check in, and no one has batted an eye. But I haven't done that in about five years.
On the other hand, if you only have carry on luggage, it should not be any challenge to just exit the plane when everyone else does. If you are changing planes, they will call your name a few times, consider you a missed passenger, and continue their flight.
Posts: 2064 | From: New Brunswick, Canada | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
Sorry for the long post, but this is pretty funny. Got it in an email a while back, and seemed appropriate here.
If Airlines Sold Paint
Customer: Hi. How much is your paint?
Clerk: Well, sir, that all depends on quite a lot of things.
Customer: Can you give me a guess? Is there an average price?
Clerk: Our lowest price is $12 a gallon, and we have 60 different prices up to $200 a gallon.
Customer: What's the difference in the paint?
Clerk: Oh, there isn't any difference; it's all the same paint.
Customer: Well, then I'd like some of that $12 paint.
Clerk: When do you intend to use the paint?
Customer: I want to paint tomorrow. It's my day off.
Clerk: Sir, the paint for tomorrow is the $200 paint.
Customer: When would I have to paint to get the $12 paint?
Clerk: You would have to start very late at night in about 3 weeks. But you will have to agree to start painting before Friday of that week and continue painting until at least Sunday.
Customer: You've got to be kidding!
Clerk: I'll check and see if we have any paint available.
Customer: You have shelves FULL of paint! I can see it!
Clerk: But it doesn't mean that we have paint available. We sell only a certain number of gallons on any given weekend. Oh, and by the way, the price per gallon just went to $16. We don't have any more $12 paint.
Customer: The price went up as we were talking?
Clerk: Yes, sir. We change the prices and rules hundreds of times a day, and since you haven't actually walked out of the store with your paint yet, we just decided to change. I suggest you purchase your paint as soon as possible. How many gallons do you want?
Customer: Well, maybe five gallons. Make that six, so I'll have enough.
Clerk: Oh no, sir, you can't do that. If you buy paint and don't use it, there are penalties and possible confiscation of the paint you already have.
Customer: WHAT?
Clerk: We can sell enough paint to do your kitchen, bathroom, hall and north bedroom, but if you stop painting before you do the bedroom, you will lose your remaining gallons of paint.
Customer: What does it matter whether I use all the paint? I already paid you for it!
Clerk: We make plans based upon the idea that all our paint is used, every drop. If you don't, it causes us all sorts of problems.
Customer: This is crazy!! I suppose something terrible happens if I don't keep painting until after Saturday night!
Clerk: Oh yes! Every gallon you bought automatically becomes the $200 paint.
Customer: But what are all these, "Paint on sale from $10 a liter" signs?
Clerk: Well that's for our budget paint. It only comes in half-gallons. One $5 half-gallon will do half a room. The second half-gallon to complete the room is $20. None of the cans have labels, some are empty and there are no refunds, even on the empty cans.
Customer: Forget this! I'll buy what I need somewhere else!
Clerk: I don't think so, sir. You may be able to buy paint for your bathroom and bedrooms, and your kitchen and dining room from someone else, but you won't be able to paint your connecting hall and stairway from anyone but us. And I should point out, sir, that if you paint in only one direction, it will be $300 a gallon.
Customer: I thought your most expensive paint was $200!
Clerk: That's if you paint around the room to the point at which you started. A hallway is different.
Customer: And if I buy $200 paint for the hall, but only paint in one direction, you'll confiscate the remaining paint.
Clerk: No, we'll charge you an extra use fee plus the difference on your next gallon of paint. But I believe you're getting it now, sir.
Customer: You're insane!
Clerk: Thanks for painting with United.
-------------------- You fail to consider, for such is the tyranny of fashion, that the swan is not a slim animal... -Jincy Kornhauser, Melinda Falling Posts: 1762 | From: Charleston, West Virginia | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Never done this on planes but they have a very similar system on the trains where it was cheaper to book a train ticket in advance to say Edinburgh than it was to Leeds. As you don't have the same faff at a railway station as you do at an airport everyone just bought a ticket to Edinburgh. Strictly you can't alight at intermediate stations but I've never been stopped when I've tried.
There are also quite a few journeys where AtoB + BtoC is less than AtoC (Reading to Birmingham for example, is cheaper if you buy a ticket from Reading to Banbury and Banbury to Birmingham even though you can just sit on the same train).
-------------------- Dactingyl is meant to sound a bit like Christingle.
It's not very good but I couldn't think of anything else.
Sorry. Posts: 257 | From: Hants, UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
Wow! I did the back to back thing when I was moving from grad school to my new job. One set of tickets for going up to get a new apartment, the other set for actually moving there. I thought I was being smart, not committing fraud.
Posts: 6995 | From: New Mexico | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
I must admit I am guilty of the back-to-back, too. Buying four tickets, using two, saving roughly 10%. The reasoning behind this pricing scheme is, IIRC, that no-saturday-trips usually are payed for by companies, who have a higher threshold than private customers. The "hidden city" I've experienced with bus rides, but there it was a political, not a commercial reasoning behind it.
Actually, I think it can be argued quite easily why those airline pricing systems do make sense and why it could be a fraud to "breach your contract to fly", but I do not find any good explanations myself. There used to be some airline people around, I think?
-------------------- Movie characters never make typing mistakes. Posts: 586 | From: Hamburg, Germany | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
I can see the problem man gets on plane with hand luggage, man leaves plane before destination. Plane goes bang. If some one did this they would have to go through the plane matching every single piece of luggage and hand luggage to each person.
-------------------- All the world's a face, And all the men and women merely acne. Posts: 673 | From: Glasgow, Scotland | Registered: Oct 2005
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Richard W
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
quote:Originally posted by Top Kat: Several times I have been on flights that were delayed because they were removing baggage that had been checked by someone who did not board the plane. Especially these days, I think they are very careful about matching checked luggage to specific passengers.
And I once missed a flight that my baggage caught...!
I mentioned it in another thread but it's particularly annoying in this context. I actually wanted to go A - B, but was told by the travel agent that there was no direct flight, and I had to go A - C then make my own way to B.
When I was actually on board, I was surprised to find that the flight in fact had a stopover in B, where I could have got off if I hadn't bought a ticked A - C (I did have checked in luggage, and I wouldn't have dared get off because of the security issue anyway). So I ended up going A - B - C then buying an internal flight from C - B. And then I missed the flight from C - B while sitting in the airport, after having checked in my luggage. Oh well.
Posts: 8725 | From: Ipswich - the UK's 9th Best Place to Sleep! | Registered: Feb 2000
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Richard W
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
quote:Originally posted by Bettie Page Turner: Customer: You're insane!
Clerk: Thanks for painting with United.
Excellent...!
You forgot part, though.
Customer: OK, so I want to paint half of the room this week and then the other half in two weeks time. I can buy all the paint now, right?
Clerk: Yes, that's correct. But you will need to ring us up three days before you want to start painting the second half, or we'll assume you don't want the paint any more, and come round and confiscate the paint that you were going to use.
Posts: 8725 | From: Ipswich - the UK's 9th Best Place to Sleep! | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
I did quite a bit of back-to-back ticketing for a few years. If I knew I needed to be in Dallas from July to November, I'd get a round-trip ticket for that, then just get round-trip tickets home on the weekends I decided to go home. I stopped doing this when a co-worker of mine was contacted by the travel agency threatening to make hime pay the difference in all his previous back-to-back fares. I don't know if airlines can actually do that, or if it is officially "fraud," but I can tell you they do not like it one bit once they find out.
-------------------- One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people will agree with you only if they already agree with you. You do not change people's minds. -Frank Zappa Posts: 135 | From: Utah | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by lazerus the duck: I can see the problem man gets on plane with hand luggage, man leaves plane before destination. Plane goes bang. If some one did this they would have to go through the plane matching every single piece of luggage and hand luggage to each person.
Hand luggage is screened before boarding the plane. This should not be an issue. I understand that there can be flaws in screening, but I'm just saying that if someone leaves before the flight continues, then it should not be a security issue over hand luggage.
Posts: 2064 | From: New Brunswick, Canada | Registered: Aug 2004
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quote:Originally posted by lazerus the duck: I can see the problem man gets on plane with hand luggage, man leaves plane before destination. Plane goes bang. If some one did this they would have to go through the plane matching every single piece of luggage and hand luggage to each person.
Hand luggage is screened before boarding the plane. This should not be an issue. I understand that there can be flaws in screening, but I'm just saying that if someone leaves before the flight continues, then it should not be a security issue over hand luggage.
Of course there would be a security issue over hand luggage. As you say no screening is perfect, would you really want to be the one who says "Well I thought the risk was minimal, sorry my mistake."
-------------------- All the world's a face, And all the men and women merely acne. Posts: 673 | From: Glasgow, Scotland | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
My OP got me pondering, I wonder how the airlines would feel if I did something like the OP but using two different airlines?
I'm going to use real airports and airlines instead of this ABC stuff to make it a little easier to follow. The closest airport to my parents is CLT, which is a rather expensive airport to fly to. AirTran does offer fairly cheap flights to CLT, but they don't fly to SMF, the closest airport to me. I wonder if I could save money by booking a flight from SMF to SFO or some other airport AirTran does fly to on some other airline, and then booking a flight from there to CLT on AirTran.
And I can't even do the hidden city thing (not that I would) because the only airline that uses CLT as a hub, US Airways, doesn't fly to SMF either.
I'm hoping this merger between US Air and America West will make flying to CLT more affordable.
-------------------- "Unseasonable is an odd word to begin with. It sounds like it's describing something that it's impossible to sprinkle pepper on." -- Nonny Posts: 5483 | From: Just south of Folsom Prison, CA | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
The airline wouldn't care as long as you're following the fare rules for their portion of the ticket and you're actually on the plane. If the two airlines do not have baggage agreements you may care though. You'd have to check your bags in Sacramento, retrieve them in San Francisco, recheck them in at the new airline and retrieve them in Charlotte. Same thing on the return. If they do have baggage and ticketing agreements then you can save that hassle. There's no problem with using the two airlines at all.
Gibbie
-------------------- If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate. Posts: 3993 | From: Indiana | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote:Originally posted by lazerus the duck: Of course there would be a security issue over hand luggage. As you say no screening is perfect, would you really want to be the one who says "Well I thought the risk was minimal, sorry my mistake."
Matching carry on luggage is not done beyond security screening now. So what is the difference if someone leaves a plane?
Posts: 2064 | From: New Brunswick, Canada | Registered: Aug 2004
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quote:Originally posted by lazerus the duck: Of course there would be a security issue over hand luggage. As you say no screening is perfect, would you really want to be the one who says "Well I thought the risk was minimal, sorry my mistake."
Matching carry on luggage is not done beyond security screening now. So what is the difference if someone leaves a plane?
Because security can be bypassed. Simple as that.
-------------------- All the world's a face, And all the men and women merely acne. Posts: 673 | From: Glasgow, Scotland | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
The risk is the same regardless of whether one stays on the plane or not. As it sits right now, all baggage and passengers are screened prior to flight. Unless they start tagging all hand luggage, and verifying tags as people board and deplane, there is not much anyone can do about it.
It is not about risk, that is what the screening does.
Posts: 2064 | From: New Brunswick, Canada | Registered: Aug 2004
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