posted
US black activists demanded that a bust of Tutankhamun be removed from a landmark exhibition of artefacts from the Egyptian boy king's tomb because the statue portrays him as white.
posted
If I remember correctly, didn't they also use an average skin tone of a lot of egyptians to get it right? Might have been another reconstruction show, but I know it's one of the mummies.
I thought it was pretty much well known what ancient egyptians probably looked like. Afterall torwards the end of their time they were painting extremly lifelike portraits on their coffins. A lot of mummified greeks, but a couple egyptains too.
(Yes, I know I'm supposed to cite this stuff, but it's 4 am. If anyone dares question my authority I'll just have to...erm...scuff my shoes in emberassment and go look it up)
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posted
Why in the hell would they make him white? Why in the hell would they make him black?
He was Egyptian. They're dark-skinned.
[edit]
All the people from Egypt I've met have dark skin. Would it be different if he was royalty and wasn't even allowed in the sun, so he would be lighter? Still not white, but not black, either...
-------------------- A dyslexic man walks into a bra. Posts: 541 | From: New Brunswick, Canada | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Oops, was still working on this when it posted itself. Anyway,
Couple things to keep in mind:
- Egyptian art is an unreliable way to determine their skin color because they used color to denote gender and social standing as much as race.
- Egyptians have mingled with other different races throughout various times in their history to reach their current appearances, so looking at an Egyptian today doesn't tell you a whole lot about how they looked thousands of years ago.
The second paragraph of this Wikipedia blurb sums up the latest thinking on the genetic lineage of the ancient Egyptians.
And I'll throw in a link to this thread on another forum that's going on right now because some posts might be worth a look if you can sidestep all the flaming.
Posts: 1325 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
It seems to me that, whenever something significant is revealed, or happens, or is announced will happen, there will be one minority special interest group that will try and find a racism or prejudiced angle and then worm their way into a scandal using the past oppressions of their group as leverage (bad example, but Michael Jackson's brother and Jesse Jackson claiming that if Jackson were white that no charges would've been pressed). It's nothing new; this happens all the time. People may be fooled by the King Tut involvement, but it's actually the same news story that has been going on for years: Angry group of minorities claim prejudice. Why stories like this still make the news is beyond me; maybe if we stopped sending the message to screwlooses like this that we actually care what they have to say, maybe they'd stop these "demonstrations."
Posts: 2711 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
About nine years ago I read the book Not Out of Africa by Mary Lefkowitz. It is an expose of the rewriting of history by Afrocentrists claiming ancient Egyptians were of negroid descent, not semetic. The above news article appears to be more Afrocentrism mythmaking.
According to a reviewer on the Amazon site: "DNA testing was conducted 20 years ago on a dozen dug up Egyptian mummified corpses and determined that the Egyptian had genetic traces of Nordic, Semetic and Indo-European, so this theory about Egyptians being black thing was squashed a long time ago."
I suppose this is just one more piece of misinformation we'll have to deal with from now on.
Ken
Posts: 140 | From: Arlington, VA | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:Originally posted by KennRice: About nine years ago I read the book Not Out of Africa by Mary Lefkowitz. It is an expose of the rewriting of history by Afrocentrists claiming ancient Egyptians were of negroid descent, not semetic. The above news article appears to be more Afrocentrism mythmaking.
According to a reviewer on the Amazon site: "DNA testing was conducted 20 years ago on a dozen dug up Egyptian mummified corpses and determined that the Egyptian had genetic traces of Nordic, Semetic and Indo-European, so this theory about Egyptians being black thing was squashed a long time ago."
I suppose this is just one more piece of misinformation we'll have to deal with from now on.
Ken
I would take reviewers' comments with a grain of salt.
I don't know for sure, but as I recall, DNA testing is, itself, only about 20 years old.
-------------------- "When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw Posts: 19266 | From: Nashville, TN | Registered: Jun 2002
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damsa
The Red and the Green Stamps
posted
quote:Originally posted by AnglRdr:
quote:Originally posted by KennRice: About nine years ago I read the book Not Out of Africa by Mary Lefkowitz. It is an expose of the rewriting of history by Afrocentrists claiming ancient Egyptians were of negroid descent, not semetic. The above news article appears to be more Afrocentrism mythmaking.
According to a reviewer on the Amazon site: "DNA testing was conducted 20 years ago on a dozen dug up Egyptian mummified corpses and determined that the Egyptian had genetic traces of Nordic, Semetic and Indo-European, so this theory about Egyptians being black thing was squashed a long time ago."
I suppose this is just one more piece of misinformation we'll have to deal with from now on.
Ken
I would take reviewers' comments with a grain of salt.
I don't know for sure, but as I recall, DNA testing is, itself, only about 20 years old.
I don't think there is such thing as "black" dna either. Nor is there a "black" gene. From what I am guessing, is that DNA from ancient egyptians are more similar to that of Nordic, Semetic and Indo-European DNA than they are of "African" dna whatever that means.
Finnish people have a certain gene similar to that of "mongoloid" people whatever that means.
Does it really matter?, doesn't everyone have African DNA anyways.
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posted
There is white and there is lilly white. North Africans are generally olive skinned which is considered white though not lilly white. This is not lilly white.
posted
Does this remind anyone else of that "the Egyptians were black" debacle here a while ago?
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Schwarz: Look, there's three ways to do things: the right way, the wrong way, and the Ninja way. Rey: Isn't that the wrong way? Schwarz: Yup, only stealthier. Posts: 546 | From: Pennsylvania | Registered: Jan 2004
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According to my old College archioligy text book, and this national geo article, the "Black" Pharoes where invaders from Lybia who became the 25th dynasty, and they were in power for approximately 50 years.
My opinion is that All the ancient egyptians had been black then they wouldn't be any reason for singling out this particular dynasty based on race.
I do know that of all the statues of pharoes that were known to the public 30 years ago, only one was obviously "negro".
Posts: 280 | From: Maryland | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
Having just come back from Egypt I can say that todays demographic is pretty much half black, half olive. Those that are black can trace their heritage back to the nubians.
however on the OP, Tutankhamun should have been a touch blacker than most pharoahs aft (or before his father) as his paternal grandmother was queen Tiye, the only Nubian in the 18th Dynasty.
little mrs
-------------------- once known as little miss
"I don't Pretend to be an ordinary Housewife" Elizabeth Taylor Posts: 2416 | From: London | Registered: Feb 2002
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My take: without going more than I can help into the `Was King Tut Black?' debate, I notice that: (a) there is a wide variety of skin colours on his representations, both ancient and modern; and (b) the modern reconstruction that is most often shown is one of the ones where he has been given a lighter skin colour.
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Linden Posts: 190 | From: Australia | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:however on the OP, Tutankhamun should have been a touch blacker than most pharoahs aft (or before his father) as his paternal grandmother was queen Tiye, the only Nubian in the 18th Dynasty.
I'm not sure that this has really been established - the only evidence I'm aware of suggesting Tiye was Nubian is based on artistic representations of Amenhotep III's Great Wife, primarily the head found at Kom Medinet Gurob:
I was amused to see that this was one of the images waved around by the protesters in the link on the OP...as with so many other Egyptian depictions, Tiye has also been portrayed as 'white' in the art of the period. Like another image the protestors used - the photo of a statue from Tutankhamen's tomb - the supposedly black African appearance is largely derived from the material of which it is crafted. Might as well go for another image and suggest (as some extremists proposing the Eygptians were 'Aryans' would) that this ultra-pallid canopic jar lid from Tutankhamen's tomb indicates he was snowy-white in complexion:
Current thinking in Eyptological circles argues that Queen Tiye was was from a powerful family of Akhmin nobles, the daughter of Yuya and Thuya and a possible sister to Anen and Ay (Tutankhamen's succesor). In the past she has been represented as possibly coming from the lower echelons of Eyptian society, but this is unlikely (some have even theorised that the Akhmin nobles she belonged to may have been related to the ruling dynasty).
Tiye's mummy hasn't been identified conclusively. This mummy , from KV 35 (known as the 'Elder Lady') has been put forward as the Queen, and an apparent match between her hair and that contained in a case in Tutankhamen's tomb and labelled with her name seemed to seal the deal. However, the i.d. has since been contested and flaws in identification methods have been raised (an interesting discussion in its own right).
What we do incontestably have, however, is Tiye's parents - Yuya and Thuya . Their mummies were exceptionally well-preserved, and - in the view of most of those who have examined them - they are not typically Nubian in appearence. It has even been suggested that Yuya might have been 'Asiatic', conjecture based on his appearance and one of his titles - 'Master of the Horse' (Asiatics were reputedly very adept at handling horses).
As Tutankhamen's parentage is uncertain, Tiye's exact relationship to him is unknown. The inclusion of items with her name on them in his tomb indicates she was probably a relative (although not certainly - grave goods were sometimes hand-me-downs), and one of the more popular theories is that he was the offspring of Tiye's son, Akhenaten, and a minor wife (possibly Kiya). Others have suggested he might be Tiye's son - this would potentially tie in with a hypothesised lengthy co-regency between Amenhotep III and Akhenaten, allowing a time frame in which Tutankhamen could be Akhenaten's younger brother. Somewhat outdated is theory that Tutankhamen and Smenkhare (his brother? Father?) came from outside the royal family.
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Linden Posts: 190 | From: Australia | Registered: Mar 2004
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BlueMonday
The Red and the Green Stamps
posted
A First post...
I've always wondered, insted of Cooping someone elses history and achivements, why not highlight those of your own ancestors? There are A number of highly advanced African cultures, so why not make their achivements be brought to the spotlight?
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quote:Originally posted by BlueMonday: I've always wondered, insted of Cooping someone elses history and achivements, why not highlight those of your own ancestors? There are A number of highly advanced African cultures, so why not make their achivements be brought to the spotlight?
The ancient Egyptians are much better known than the ancient Mali, Ethiopians, or Kushites.
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Turing test failures: 6 Posts: 5481 | From: Decatur, GA | Registered: Nov 2002
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quote:Originally posted by BlueMonday: I've always wondered, insted of Cooping someone elses history and achivements, why not highlight those of your own ancestors? There are A number of highly advanced African cultures, so why not make their achivements be brought to the spotlight?
The ancient Egyptians are much better known than the ancient Mali, Ethiopians, or Kushites.
I think that's the point though. Why take the easy way out and make an association with culture that is already well known when there are other cultures that deserve to be better known?
Noemi
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quote:Originally posted by Noemi: I think that's the point though. Why take the easy way out and make an association with culture that is already well known when there are other cultures that deserve to be better known?
The instant connection. There is no need to demonstrate the achievements the other cultures. Pictures of the pyraminds, the sphinx, etc, are a dime a dozen. Great Zimbabwe rarely shows up in books.
(And I don't think it makes the Afrocentric historians look good.)
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Turing test failures: 6 Posts: 5481 | From: Decatur, GA | Registered: Nov 2002
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