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valandearl19
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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This is a true story that I saw on that show "Beyond Belief". One night in the late 1800's an old woman was sitting in her house when she heard a nock at the door. When she answered it she saw two man asking for shelter for the night. As she was a kindly woman she let them in. Over the course of the night she told them of how since her husband had died she had acumulated a $900 dept and they were coming to forclose her house the next morning. The next morning the woman woke up to find the two men gone and the $900 on her table. Later that day after she had payed the money the man from the bank was driving his cart home when he was robbed by the very same men who had spent the night with the old woman. These two men? Frank and Jesse James!

[ 31. May 2005, 03:40 AM:   snopes ]

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Oh No! My Brains-Hans Moleman

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snopes
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quote:
This is a true story that I saw on that show "Beyond Belief".
I don't think I've ever seen a purer oxymoron.

- snopes

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valandearl19
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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The full title of the show is Beyond Belief: Fact or Fiction

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Oh No! My Brains-Hans Moleman

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Bela Lugosi's Dead
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by valandearl19:
This is a true story that I saw on that show "Beyond Belief". One night in the late 1800's an old woman was sitting in her house when she heard a nock at the door. When she answered it she saw two man asking for shelter for the night. As she was a kindly woman she let them in. Over the course of the night she told them of how since her husband had died she had acumulated a $900 dept and they were coming to forclose her house the next morning. The next morning the woman woke up to find the two men gone and the $900 on her table. Later that day after she had payed the money the man from the bank was driving his cart home when he was robbed by the very same men who had spent the night with the old woman. These two men? Frank and Jesse James!

I grew up in Missouri, Jesse and Frank James territory. Stories about Frank and Jesse are pretty common around here, as well as landmarks and memorials at parks. Maremac Caverns (near Springfield and Branson) was allegedly a part time hide out for the James gang, and its a regular tourist attraction.

As for this story...this is an often repeated tale about Jesse and Frank James. I've heard it several times and in several different forms. In most cases, the "kindly woman" is actually the brother's cousin. This tale is also featured in a recently made movie about the brother starring Rob Lowe and Bill Paxton featured this story as well. In this account, Rob and Bill actually come out of the house and comically imitate weathy fops and pay the Banker personally before following him down the trail and robbing him to get their money back.

As to whether the story is true or not...I really have no idea. Some James fanatics (and in this part of the country, there are people who are fanatic about the James brothers) they insist that it is. Apparently the story is quite old, and they insist that because it was told while the James brothers were still alive that it must be true. Of course, that doesn't really make sense...legends can (and frequently are) made up about people while they are still alive.

This story might simply be another attempt to romanticize an otherwise unromantic character. The James brothers were criminals. They were murderers and thieves. During the civil war, they were terrorists (no, they were not regular Confederate army, they were citizens of a Union State who were not affiliated with any military body).

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snopes
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quote:
The full title of the show is Beyond Belief: Fact or Fiction
Yes, I know. And this is how they distinguish between the two:

Fiction: We made it up.

Fact: Somebody else made it up.

- snopes

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valandearl19
I'll Be Home for After Christmas Sales


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I never saw "American Outlaws" is it portrayed in that movie

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Oh No! My Brains-Hans Moleman

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damsa
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by snopes:
quote:
The full title of the show is Beyond Belief: Fact or Fiction
Yes, I know. And this is how they distinguish between the two:

Fiction: We made it up.

Fact: Somebody else made it up.

- snopes

This is what gets me at times that the definition of a fact has changed to mean truth. It should be Beyond Belief: Truth or Fiction.

Fact means something can be proven truthfully or or false.

The sky is purple is a fact. You can go out and perform tests to verify whether the sky is purple.

Donuts can cause cancer is a fact. You can go out and do tests to prove it truth or false.

Purple sky is the most beautiful color is an opinion. You can't prove it.

My other annoyance is the use of AD after the date rather than before.

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Bela Lugosi's Dead
The Red and the Green Stamps


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I've watched a few re-runs of Beyond Belief (hosted by Commander Ryker...yeah, I know its Jon Frakes, but to me he's Commander Ryker) on Sci Fi late at night when I couldn't sleep (which is often...like right now). I've regularly questioned the validity of the stories they presented as fact...including one story that involved a vampire being admitted to a hospital then leaping out a forth story window to escape and not being injured. As snopes pointed out, they absolved themselves of the whole deal by claiming the story was based on "actual reported events".

I would like to report that I once killed a duck with the power of my brain alone. Now, if someone tells that to someone else, they can claim its a fact because its based on "actual reported events".

Bela "take that, duck!" Lugosi's Dead.

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snopes
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quote:
they absolved themselves of the whole deal by claiming the story was based on "actual reported events"
They said the same thing when they dramatized the poison dress legend.

- snopes

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Dubb
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by damsa:
Fact means something can be proven truthfully or or false.

The sky is purple is a fact. You can go out and perform tests to verify whether the sky is purple.

Donuts can cause cancer is a fact. You can go out and do tests to prove it truth or false.

Purple sky is the most beautiful color is an opinion. You can't prove it.

Say what?
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damsa
The Red and the Green Stamps


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Defintion of Fact

Fact is defined as knowledge or information based on real occurrences which I guess is the Beyond Belief defintion.

According to the dictionary definition, facts does not equal truth. Only that there is a belief it is true. I can believe the sky is purple. Sky is purple is a fact.

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Black Belt and Socks
The First USA Noel


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It would appear encarta disagrees with you:

Definition of Fact 2

BB&S

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"How dare your reality hinder my ability to believe what I want!" Joe Bentley

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Elkhound
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by Bela Lugosi's Dead:


This story might simply be another attempt to romanticize an otherwise unromantic character. The James brothers were criminals. They were murderers and thieves. During the civil war, they were terrorists (no, they were not regular Confederate army, they were citizens of a Union State who were not affiliated with any military body). [/QB]

Few people are all good or all bad. The James brothers were thoroughly unsatisfactory characters with a lot of unsavory habits, but that doesn't mean that they were necessarily incapable of acts of generosity.

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"The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch

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Dubb
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by damsa:
Defintion of Fact

Fact is defined as knowledge or information based on real occurrences which I guess is the Beyond Belief defintion.

According to the dictionary definition, facts does not equal truth. Only that there is a belief it is true. I can believe the sky is purple. Sky is purple is a fact.

You have a screw loose.
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Unusual Elfin Lights
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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I have gone through your source:

quote:
Originally posted by damsa:
Defintion of Fact

Fact is defined as knowledge or information based on real occurrences which I guess is the Beyond Belief defintion.

According to the dictionary definition, facts does not equal truth. Only that there is a belief it is true. I can believe the sky is purple. Sky is purple is a fact.

It does not support your claim about six posts up. The only way I can bridge your opinion with the definition is that the person who is claiming the sky is purple essentially believes it. Then it is a fact for him/her.

But then, any FOAF story I hear that I believe automatically falls into the category of "fact".

Logical fallacy here I believe.

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damsa
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by UEL - Australia or bust:
I have gone through your source:

quote:
Originally posted by damsa:
Defintion of Fact

Fact is defined as knowledge or information based on real occurrences which I guess is the Beyond Belief defintion.

According to the dictionary definition, facts does not equal truth. Only that there is a belief it is true. I can believe the sky is purple. Sky is purple is a fact.

It does not support your claim about six posts up. The only way I can bridge your opinion with the definition is that the person who is claiming the sky is purple essentially believes it. Then it is a fact for him/her.

But then, any FOAF story I hear that I believe automatically falls into the category of "fact".

Logical fallacy here I believe.

Either definition doesn't state that a fact = truth. Only that it is known to be true. So in the 1000s. If I said the world is flat. That would be a fact. Even though it may not necessarily be true.

If I said the world would be a better place to live if it was round. That would not be a fact.

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Black Belt and Socks
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Either definition doesn't state that a fact = truth. Only that it is known to be true.
From the encarta definition:

1. something known to be true: something that can be shown to be true, to exist, or to have happened


2. truth or reality of something: the truth or actual existence of something, as opposed to the supposition of something or a belief about something


[Confused]

BB&S

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"How dare your reality hinder my ability to believe what I want!" Joe Bentley

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Unusual Elfin Lights
Happy Xmas (Warranty Is Over)


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quote:
Originally posted by damsa:
Either definition doesn't state that a fact = truth. Only that it is known to be true. So in the 1000s. If I said the world is flat. That would be a fact. Even though it may not necessarily be true.

If I said the world would be a better place to live if it was round. That would not be a fact.

So how does "the sky is purple" become a fact?

You originally said that because it was proveable it is a fact.

You now state that a fact does not have to equate to truth, yet you invoke truth in your explanations.

I'm online with your idea that facts are what are preceived to be true by people, no problem there. I am just mystified by your inability to read the definitions posted from dictionaries here and understand that "the sky is purple" can be construed as fact because it is a testable hypothesis.

Can you sort me out to your point of view?

Thanks

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Dubb
The Red and the Green Stamps


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I suppose she cannot.
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