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snopes
Return! Return! Return!


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In 1966, France (under Charles de Gaulle), declared that it was pulling
out of NATO. French motives were simple: they did not want to be seen as
the 2nd rate power they had become in the shadow of America. De Gaulle
announced that all American troops on French soil must leave so as to
eliminate any trace of US military presence.

President Lyndon Johnson, who would soon be savaged by the American media
and anti-war movement ("Hey, Hey, LBJ, How many kids did you kill today?")
had his moments of honor. He also had a better grasp of history than most
politicians and protestors. Remember that this was the same France and
Charles de Gaulle that had been liberated largely by American troops in
two costly World Wars. Many thousands of US KIA's were buried throughout
France.

When Johnson's secretary of state, Dean Rusk, briefed LBJ on De Gaulle's
declaration and the resulting US plan to move NATO HQ from Paris, to
Brussels, Belgium, along with the withdrawal of all US troops from France,
the US commander in chief had only one comment: "Ask him about the cemeteries."
Rusk tried to talk LBJ out of this controversial response,
but the president was insistent: "Ask him about the cemeteries, Dean!"

LBJ stood by this presidential command. Rusk later brought it directly to
De Gaulle, following his brief as to how the US would honor the French
demand. Did the French in fact insist upon the removal of ALL American
troops from French soil - to include the thousands buried across the
country who had given their lives so France could again live in freedom?
In Rusk's autobiography, he records that De Gaulle, embarrassed, did not
reply.

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AnglsWeHvHrdOnHiRdr
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Somewhat true. The quote was: "Does your order include the bodies of American soldiers in France's cemeteries?" [source: here]

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"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."--George Bernard Shaw

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First of Two
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Heh. I knew there was something I liked about LBJ.

--------------------
"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle

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'Lester
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Remember, this is the same General/President De Gaulle who came to Quebec, saying they are being _CHEATED_ unless they bitch/moan & threaten to separate from the rest of Canada ... [Roll Eyes]

The issue was something of how "RUSSIA" tended to follow "the fashions" of engineering/scientific/social endeavours in France, and De Gaulle wanted to "Beat his Chest" a little, as a newly-emerging (& Fashionable?) Nuclear Power.

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bruce in france
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Please help me; are these the same Americans, who, if not for the intervention of Lafayette and his troops, might still have been part of the British Commonwealth?

[Big Grin]

-b

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Elkhound
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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quote:
Originally posted by bruce in france:
Please help me; are these the same Americans, who, if not for the intervention of Lafayette and his troops, might still have been part of the British Commonwealth?

[Big Grin]

-b

My grandfather saved France from the Kaiser; my father; saved it from the Furher; Lafayette's bill has been paid, with interest. [Furious]

--------------------
"The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch

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ZenKnight, Desert Dragon
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quote:
Originally posted by bruce in france:
Please help me; are these the same Americans, who, if not for the intervention of Lafayette and his troops, might still have been part of the British Commonwealth?

[Big Grin]

-b

No, those ones were largely dead by that time, so they were instead a new crop.
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Fusca 1976
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by Elkhound:
My grandfather saved France from the Kaiser;

Huh?

American participation in WWI was slightly more than cosmetic.

If you allow yourself to think of that as true, then I feel compelled to tell you that what saved y'all from defeat in WWII was the capture of Wehrmacht's 148th Division...

Luís "and how would accomplish that without cafeine?" Henrique

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Rommel
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quote:
My grandfather saved France from the Kaiser; my father; saved it from the Furher;
Wow, that's quite a family legacy. How did you live up, did you singlehandedly win the Cold War?

The US participation in WWI was more than cosmetic, it did convince the Germans that they absolutely could not win. The war might have dragged on as much as another year without US involvement.

That said, the battles that really decided the war were fought in May-June 1918, and won without much American involvement. The Germans threw just about everything they had at the British in an attempt to finish the war before massive American involvement. After initial successes, including getting within 70 miles of Paris, the Germans are stopped and eventually pushed back. If Germany had succeeded in these offensives, they would have won. Once they failed, they knew that they had lost.

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Elkhound
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quote:
Originally posted by Rommel:
[QB]
quote:
My grandfather saved France from the Kaiser; my father; saved it from the Furher;
Wow, that's quite a family legacy. How did you live up, did you singlehandedly win the Cold War?

The US participation in WWI was more than cosmetic, it did convince the Germans that they absolutely could not win. The war might have dragged on as much as another year without US involvement.

[QB]

Of course I didn't mean that they did so personally or singlehandedly. But are you saying that their generations' sacrifices and suffering was for naught?

There aren't many WW I veterans around, but there are plenty of WW II veterans left. I suggest you go up to one of them and say it to his face. They're getting rather long of tooth now, but I think I can safely predict that you would not like the result.

--------------------
"The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch

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Rommel
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Wow, not much of a sense of humor on you, is there? Where did I say that the sacrifice was for nothing? Why don't you walk up to a Russian or British WWII veteran and tell them that the US "Saved the world in WWII" and see what kind of a reaction you get.

There's a reason it's called World War II.

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First of Two
The Bills of St. Mary's


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Yes, and that reason is that the US got involved.

If not, it probably would have been called "The Nazis Conquer Europe."

Unless you really think the Brits would have invaded Normandy all by their lonesome.

And fighting a one-front war would eventually have broken even the Bear, especially if someone in the German high command had gotten a clue and changed tactics, pulled back the northern troops to a holding action, gone south, and taken the Caucasus oil fields. It's what _I_ would have done.

--------------------
"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide." - Jerry Pournelle

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Rommel
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I'm not saying that the US didn't contribute, nor that the contribution was unimportant. We could say the same thing of Russian involvement, if Germany hadn't attacked Russia, it would have been "the Nazi's conquer Europe" just as surely as lack of US involvement. The sacrifice that the US made is nothing compared to the sacrifice of the Russians.

The Russian army suffered over 10 million casualties, and that doesn't count the civilian deaths. The US suffered less than a million. I'm not trying to diminish the importance of the US role, I'm just trying to put it in perspective.

Stalingrad broke the back of the German Army, not D-Day.

World War II was won with British tenacity, American materiel, and Russian bodies.

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Fusca 1976
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by First of Scrooge:
especially if someone in the German high command had gotten a clue and changed tactics, pulled back the northern troops to a holding action, gone south, and taken the Caucasus oil fields.

Thei did it. And as a result, they lost von Paulus' army.

Luís "always take care of your left flank" Henrique

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Fusca 1976
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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The Germans lost the war for a series of reasons. The single most important of them, however, seems to be the fact that the far range of their operations, combined with the political difficulty to bring the conquered people to their side, made necessary to them the use of strategical weapons, which, until the V-2, they completely lacked. If they had a real strategical air force, they could possibly have bombed out the RAF and the Russian industry beyond the Urals. As it was, they could not solve the British problem, were unnable to invade the islands, and could not prevent the Russians from building tactical weapons that ended by subduing their Marks and Stuckas, reverting Blitzkrieg against them.

Whence German power was broken on the East Front, D-day was a question of time, and, yes, the British would have invaded on their own - later and less effectively, of course; the armies would have met at... Strasbourg? instead of Wurzburg.

Luís Henrique

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Fusca 1976
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by Elkhound:
but there are plenty of WW II veterans left. I suggest you go up to one of them and say it to his face.

I did not know mahy WWII veterans, and those I knew are now dead. Those I knew hated to talk about war. One of them could not stand full-moon nights (Monte Casino was taken, under heavy German artillery fire, on a full-moon night).

I never met a soldier who was easy-going on people who were not on the battlefield and tried to use their personal participation in war actions for tribal braggery. Your experience may differ.

Luís Henrique

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Bren
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quote:
Originally posted by Rommel:
. The sacrifice that the US made is nothing compared to the sacrifice of the Russians.

The Russian army suffered over 10 million casualties, and that doesn't count the civilian deaths. The US suffered less than a million. I'm not trying to diminish the importance of the US role, I'm just trying to put it in perspective.
.

Seems more like you're just trying to avoid giving America any credit. Like they say though, people don't go to such lengths to discredit something, if they truly know their right. If Russia and Britian won the war, they wouldn't feel the need to keep saying it 60 years later. It sounds almost like they're trying to convince themselves, more than anything.

Second, Russia's sacrafices can't be compared to America. That's backward on there. It's not too hard to realize it either. Take a look at a globe sometime, and ask how much harder it was for America to even get involved in the war? Let alone getting involved in something we had nothing to gain from. That big pool of water between America and the UK was something Russia never had to deal with. In addition to lives, America not only got involved in a war for the freedom of people a continent away, but it cost them millions just to do it. Throw weapons, vessels, and planes on top of that, and you'll see, liberating Europe cost America a pretty penny.

It's just funny how much hypocrisy there is, when it comes to war. During WWII, America was faulted for not joining the war sooner, instead of attempting to remain neutral. Now when it comes to Iraq though, America is all of a sudden a blood-thirsty bully, who craves war.

I guess the answer to that is simple. If it's your country that needs liberating, America had better do it, and fast! God forbid another country needs help though. After all, America shouldn't be poking it's nose in where it doesn't belong, right? The only time that's ok, is when Europe is on the verge of being Hitlers toys.

Anyone who thinks the allies would have won that war without America, is in some serious denial. Japan did the world a huge favor with Pearl Harbour. Even despite that though, America wasn't obligated to save Europe. Hitler wasn't about to cross 3,000 miles worth of ocean, just to take on a huge army waiting to engage him. Instead of holding back troops to cover their own arse though, troops were sent to two continents.

Like French President Jacques Chirac said on the anniversary of 9/11. "France knows what it owes America." Or at least that's what he said in front of the TV camera. [Roll Eyes]

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The Animal (or god?) who stole Xmas
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quote:
Originally posted by Bren:
[QB][QUOTE]Originally posted by Rommel:
[qb]. If it's your country that needs liberating, America had better do it, and fast! God forbid another country needs help though. QB]

America had better liberate itself as well.
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MonksteR
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quote:
Originally posted by Bren:

Second, Russia's sacrafices can't be compared to America. That's backward on there. It's not too hard to realize it either. Take a look at a globe sometime, and ask how much harder it was for America to even get involved in the war? Let alone getting involved in something we had nothing to gain from.

and lets not forget just how far away Australia is from Europe and the Middle East yet that didnt stop us getting involved, and exactly what do WE have to gain from getting involved with Americas little revenge against Bin Laden by sending our special forces over to Afganistan? we werent attacked.

Credit where credit is due though , the united states did send troops to Australia when we were attacked by Japan when the UK wouldnt.

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Gerard
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I wonder what would have happened if the reverse have been true. I can visualize the following dialogue:

King Louis XVI: Well, Georges, old buddy, seeing as we just helped you kick the British out, I have this neat idea: as they are still positioned north of your little country, why don't you let us install a few military bases in order to fight them, just in case they try to attack you again?
Georges Washington: You already have Louisiana for that, NFBSK off!

Why would you want us to accept what you wouldn't have?

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The 12 Time Trusts of Christmas
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quote:
Supposedly posted by Bren:
Like they say though, people don't go to such lengths to discredit something, if they truly know their right. If Russia and Britian won the war, they wouldn't feel the need to keep saying it 60 years later. It sounds almost like they're trying to convince themselves, more than anything.

Bad logic. You live in the U.S., so obviously you will hear the American perspective on the war first and foremost. Simply because the Russian and British (or Canadian, for that matter) efforts in the war aren't talked about as much in America doesn't diminish the significant role of history.

I am glad the U.S. got involved in the war, though, or much more than Eastern Europe would have been taken over by the Soviets, who would not have stopped their advance at Germany. The Allied success of D-Day owed much to Russia, who tied up the tremendous bulk of German forces on the eastern front, but in effect Eastern Europe traded one dictator for another.

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Fusca 1976
Angels Wii Have Heard on High


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quote:
Originally posted by Bren:
Like they say though, people don't go to such lengths to discredit something, if they truly know their right. If Russia and Britian won the war, they wouldn't feel the need to keep saying it 60 years later. It sounds almost like they're trying to convince themselves, more than anything.

You are right. But I haven't read British or Russian people claiming that Russia and/or Britain won the war. On the contrary, it is Americans who seem to need to kepp saying they (sometimes even forgetting to say "our ancestors") won the war. It sounds, as you say that they are rather trying to convince themselves...

quote:
Like French President Jacques Chirac said on the anniversary of 9/11. "France knows what it owes America." Or at least that's what he said in front of the TV camera. [Roll Eyes]
Everybody knows what we owe to the US. It does not include military bases on our territories, or having to stand braggeries of the "you would be speaking German" kind without responding.

Defeating Nazism was one of the brightes pages of our history. Please don't spoil it making of it a justification for imperial actions.

Luís Henrique

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Bren
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quote:
Originally posted by MonksteR:

and lets not forget just how far away Australia is from Europe and the Middle East yet that didnt stop us getting involved, and exactly what do WE have to gain from getting involved with Americas little revenge against Bin Laden by sending our special forces over to Afganistan? we werent attacked.

Credit where credit is due though , the united states did send troops to Australia when we were attacked by Japan when the UK wouldnt.[/QB][/QUOTE]

And who said Australia didn't get involved? Or that Australia didn't send troops to Afghanistan? Not that this type of response suprises me. People can get the most amazingly twisted things out of stuff like this. Just how speaking of America's role in WWII related to Australia, I have no idea.

Claiming that Australia hasn't been attacked, would show a seriously short term memory. Australia's mainland hasn't been attacked, and hopefully it never will. To say that the Bali bombing wasn't aimed at Australia though, is just ridiculous. The funny thing about it all though, is how one of the bombers put on a whole act about them mistaking it for an American tourist club, yet his own orginization has threatened Australia specifically many times. I'd have to assume he feels like a bit of a moron right about now. Nice try at a defense though, just hope they use one that isn't directly refuted by their own leaders next time.

I'm sure if the 100 plus families of the Australian victims were asked, they'd be the first to tell you that the country has a lot to gain from it's efforts in the Middle East. One could easily make the argument that the entire world has a lot to gain. The most shocking part of it all, was where 9/11 happened. I can't even count the number of times I've heard immigrants in total despair. Lots of people left many countries to escape things like this. If it's not safe in America, where can it truly be safe?

And if you want to keep score, America has already sent more troops and weapons to Australia, and it's immediate area, than Australia sent to Afghanistan in the last 16 months. This is at the request of the Prime Minister himself.

Nobody is denying that Australia and countless other countries, didn't offer great support after 9/11. To those of us personally affected, it helped a great deal. The fact is though, that was all voluntary. Even during the greatest tragedy this country (or the world for that matter) has ever seen, there were no desperate cries for help. In fact, after the first couple of months, most everyone who came to help returned home, as they were expected to. No foriegn person was expected to put their life, career, or family on the line. If you ever want to hear about the spirit of America though, these are the people to talk to.

It's nearly impossible for anyone who didn't witness ground zero firsthand, to fully understand what it was like. Thank god for that too. No decent person would ever want anyone else to be able to relate to something of that scale. The amount of steel, rubbel, and disgusting as it is, human bodies and body parts, were unthinkable before then. Expecting someone to know what 220 stories worth of building, filled with 3,000 corpses looks like, would be ridiculous.

As I said though, none of the help that was offered by the international commnunity was requested. The entire clean-up was done in eigth months, four months earlier than expected. You can't get rid of something like that fast enough, but it was done in an amount of time that amazed most everyone. I'm not a Religious person at all really, but it is quite a coincedence that 2001 just happened to be the second warmest ever. With barely any snow at all, which enabled work to go on un-interupted.

Australia is currently extremely concerned about possible attacks, as well they should be. Obviously these cowards have no problem targeting America's allies, if they can't hit America directly. Both the American government and NATO have sworn to protect all it's allies, and they will. Just because people might not see it firsthand, doesn't mean that this kind of protection doesn't exist. In fact, it's already underway in many countries.

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Bren
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quote:
Originally posted by Kosher Anthropophage:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bren:

QUOTE]You are right. But I haven't read British or Russian people claiming that Russia and/or Britain won the war. On the contrary, it is Americans who seem to need to kepp saying they (sometimes even forgetting to say "our ancestors") won the war. It sounds, as you say that they are rather trying to convince themselves...

QUOTE]Everybody knows what we owe to the US. It does not include military bases on our territories, or having to stand braggeries of the "you would be speaking German" kind without responding.

Defeating Nazism was one of the brightes pages of our history. Please don't spoil it making of it a justification for imperial actions.

Luís Henrique

So then any military base that France maintains on foriegn soil is ok? Yet if America does the same, it's not? How's that for hypocrisy?

You might want to check into why these bases are actually in these countries. You hear all these cries of injustice the world over, because the evil Americans have a military presence in other countries, yet they're never kicked out by any Government. The fact is, most of them have been requested, despite the ever popular anti-American opinion. In fact, upon not signing the international law agreement, Amnesty International cited the American government as shirking it's responsabilities. All because they threatened to pull troops out of countries, who they consider to be in need of our help. People act as if America has no foriegn military bases on it's land, which is just ridiculously untrue.

The funniest of all these examples of hypocrisy though, has to be Afghanistan. America provides Ben Ladin with support that made it possible to drive out the Soviets, which he himself will not deny. Yet as soon as the Soviets were gone, he started yelling about the American military. Not to mention bases in Saudi Arabia, which were not only requested by his own government, but aided by his own family. Basically all he was saying about America was, "Thank you for the freedom and life stuff. Now get the hell out!" Far be it from us to delay his good times. Most of which were made up of torture, rape, and the slaughter of Afghanistans own people. These tyrants hate to fall behind in their work.

This is just more of the same though, and it sums up why the French are thought of as, "The Charlie Brown," of allies. Wishy one day, and washy the next. As much as they'd like it to be about America only, not too many countries have confidence in France as an ally. You've just stated that America shouldn't take credit for defeating the Nazi's, yet you turn around right after that, and claim that the French were the ones who ridded the world of evil. Amazing how that works.

Here's yet more hypocrisy. I think everyone would agree that the tired and old "oil excuse," is used the world over against America. The funny thing though, is that clueless people keep on using it to condemn a possible attack on Iraq. This is despite the fact that America has no oil interests in Iraq, and even if they did, their not stupid enough to think the oil will be there when they get in. Saddam would never allow America to get to his oil, as he demonstrated by burning the Kuwaiti fields on his way out of town. You can be sure that there's going to be troops ready to put those fires out, as soon as the objective is reached.

So who exactly does have direct oil interests in Iraq? You guessed it, France! Along with the newest on again/off again ally, Russia (who just accused the peace corpse of being spies, and kicked them out of the country). And who were the two most vocal opponents to any UN resolution? You guessed it, France and Russia. I guess it changes things a lot, when you have billions of dollars on the line. When America considers things like oil though, their dismissed as selfish war-mongers. For some strange reason, Saddam's dictatorship has been given lots more leeway, as of late.

God forbid anyone would ever accuse France or Russia of allowing their own selfish interests, to dictate their views on foriegn matters. Obviously only America would ever do that. [Roll Eyes]

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MonksteR
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Bren: i think maybe you have a short term memory as well , since one of the reasons we were attacked was BECAUSE of our already sending troops to the middle east after S11 happened and the fact that we had promised continued support on the war on terrorism.

anyways you seem to have missed my point which was you dont fight in wars for what you can get out of them or for the accolades or whatever you fight because your allies or someone in trouble needs help.

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D. Dodge Silver
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quote:
Originally posted by Gerard:
I wonder what would have happened if the reverse have been true. I can visualize the following dialogue:

King Louis XVI: Well, Georges, old buddy, seeing as we just helped you kick the British out, I have this neat idea: as they are still positioned north of your little country, why don't you let us install a few military bases in order to fight them, just in case they try to attack you again?
Georges Washington: You already have Louisiana for that, NFBSK off!

Why would you want us to accept what you wouldn't have?

Boy, I hope Louis didn't lose his head after George blew him off like that. Oh...guess he did. By the time our revolution was over, the French revolution was about to begin. Remember, Jefferson made the Louisana purchase from Napolean, which means that the early governments of the Revolution (Marat, etc), had already come and gone.

D. Dodge "Allons, enfants" Silver

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Alladin
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Thank God we British managed to keep the German's off our soil on our own - I dread to think what would have become of our great nation had we been liberated by US forces! Those people more than half a century ago came oput and faught with great bravery not for the people of France, not for the people of Britain and not for the US, but the good of the whole world.

As a result they won the respect and thanks of a large part of the European continent.

It is a pity that the ancestors of those people feel the need to take such completely unselfish deeds and use them as an excuse for unilateralism.

PS: What would have happened to the US if the French Resistance, British forces and their allies had not stopped German advances throughout Europe? Chances are London would have been occupied, leaving little opposition to a move on the US.

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Rommel
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Second, Russia's sacrafices can't be compared to America. That's backward on there. It's not too hard to realize it either. Take a look at a globe sometime, and ask how much harder it was for America to even get involved in the war? Let alone getting involved in something we had nothing to gain from. That big pool of water between America and the UK was something Russia never had to deal with. In addition to lives, America not only got involved in a war for the freedom of people a continent away, but it cost them millions just to do it. Throw weapons, vessels, and planes on top of that, and you'll see, liberating Europe cost America a pretty penny.

And the US didn't have Nazi's occupying our territory, killing our civilians, bombing and shelling our cities to rubble, stealing our resources, etc.

I don't know where you get the idea that I'm not giving the US credit. The supplies and war materiel we sent to all the other powers was immense. 37% of the US GDP was used up in war production. That is a huge sacrifice for any country to make. Compare that sacrifice with the sacrifice of more than 10% of your population. I think we are talking about different kinds of sacrifice here.

To also say that the US had nothing to gain is shortsighted. Suppose the US had stayed out completely and the Nazis won? Now a belligerent state is in control of all the land from France to Siberia, from the Arctic to North Africa. If the Nazis could maintain such a state, the US would have faced an enemy that directly (and inderectly, even if Japan was defeated and occupied by the US, China and India would have had no choice but to fall under the Nazi yoke with them occupying all of Russia and North Africa). Even with the A-bomb, the US had no delivery system that could attack Europe's mainland without bases in Britain. Germany was probably two years away from a transatlantic missle at the end of the war, and that was with diminished resources. If the Nazis had won, the US would be in an untenable position in the world.

Even if the Nazi's had lost, Russia would have borne the brunt of the war, and would have occupied whatever land they took from the Nazis. They would have at the very least controlled all of Germany, and probably would have set up a puppet state in France as well. Then, once again we have a single, hostile state in control of all of Europe and northern Asia. Once again a bad position for the US to be in.

The US, Great Britain, and the Soviet Union (as well as the Dominions and the occupied countries) suffered and struggled immensely together to beat the Nazis and Japan. To say "without our contribution you'd all be speaking German" insults the soldiers and civilians of all the other countries that fought against the Axis in whatever way they could. OTOH, to say that the US contributed nothing would insult the 7 million US soldiers who fought all around the world, and the 660,000 who didn't come back, not to mention the civilians who worked extra hours producing weapons. I have no intention of doing either.

By the way, the situation in WWII bears absolutely no resemblance to the situation with Iraq today. To even draw a comparison between the two is laughable.

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Tier-Rex
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by Bren:
[QB]
quote:
Originally posted by MonksteR:

and lets not forget just how far away Australia is from Europe and the Middle East yet that didnt stop us getting involved, and exactly what do WE have to gain from getting involved with Americas little revenge against Bin Laden by sending our special forces over to Afganistan? we werent attacked.

(snip) BREN's Valid, (but may yet prove to be slightly mistaken point) Claiming that Australia hasn't been attacked, would show a seriously short term memory. Australia's mainland hasn't been attacked, and hopefully it never will. To say that the Bali bombing wasn't aimed at Australia though, is just ridiculous./QB]

One word MONKSTER - DARWIN. Chew on that my fellow Aussie (WW2 - ring any bells ???) - let's add the rumours (maybe) of Japanese midget subs in Sydney Harbour, as well ,as is proving more and more likely , .. Japanese forces landing on W.A. soil.

And yeah maybe BALI was or wasn't aimed at us - we suffered just the same though.

We fought cause we thought it was right and just, maybe we were wrong. BUT we have fought for the same reason every time since. AND we will continue to do so [Big Grin]

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MonksteR
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by Tier-Rex:
One word MONKSTER - DARWIN. Chew on that my fellow Aussie (WW2 - ring any bells ???) - let's add the rumours (maybe) of Japanese midget subs in Sydney Harbour, as well ,as is proving more and more likely , .. Japanese forces landing on W.A. soil.

And yeah maybe BALI was or wasn't aimed at us - we suffered just the same though.

We fought cause we thought it was right and just, maybe we were wrong. BUT we have fought for the same reason every time since. AND we will continue to do so [Big Grin] [/QB]

well see darwin was AFTER we had already sent troops to Europe so chew on that [Razz] also your last paragraph was the point i was making the whole time!

Quote: anyways you seem to have missed my point which was you dont fight in wars for what you can get out of them or for the accolades or whatever you fight because your allies or someone in trouble needs help.

[Smile]

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Finite Fourier Alchemy
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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Meh. In the interest of bringing this subject vaguely on-topic, can someone tell me why France has become so commonly known for its anti-Americanism? Is it because of the actions of US troops? Is it due to the obnoxious "you'd be speaking German" quips that abound even in places like these?

Rommel, fascinating analysis on what might have happened if the US was not involved, but I think it's unlikely that Hitler would have remained in power long enough to topple the US. Still, the idea of the US, Canada, and Australia forming the last Allied superpowers is pretty amazing and frightening, and if the Nazis were in good enough shape to keep in power for years enough to build a military capable of invading us, I would expect American occuptation to be very possible.

Depressing though it may be, I think that the US would likely be forced into a truce if Britain fell. Once Europe was taken entirely, the war would have been over, and we wouldn't have much left but hope the Reich toppled under its own weight. Had this not occured, we'd have a 1984 type world for quite some time.

Still, it's an interesting though experiment.

Alchemy

--------------------
Thinking about New England / missing old Japan

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snopes
Return! Return! Return!


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quote:
In the interest of bringing this subject vaguely on-topic, can someone tell me why France has become so commonly known for its anti-Americanism?
Perhaps as a means of trying to retain a sense of identity, importance, and independence after its loss of empire and status as a world power?

- snopes

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MonksteR
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by Alchemy:
Meh. In the interest of bringing this subject vaguely on-topic, can someone tell me why France has become so commonly known for its anti-Americanism?

because of the trillion dollar note being stolen by mr burns [Smile]
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Tier-Rex
The Red and the Green Stamps


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Actually, reading my post again - I'm not even sure what I was trying to get at lol

Please ignore it Monkster. Basically the results of a drunken rambling.

Tier " I shouldn't drink and drive a computer" Rex
(Well type on really - but that didn't work right)

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MonksteR
The Red and the Green Stamps


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its all good mate:)
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