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Author Topic: I hate Disney
Pogue Ma-humbug
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Why do I hate Disney? Let me count the ways. (And it's not because I believe in -- or care about -- hidden messages.)

Perhaps the biggest reason I despise Disney is because of its blatant hypocrisy. It tries to present an image of a kind, cuddly Uncle Walt who will gently lull you to sleep with a story, but in reality is a cutthroat business that uses any means possible to squeeze an extra buck out of people.

To wit:

It literally is its own government in Orlando -- with all the rights of a municipality, such as condemning property, creating its own police force, and building its own water and sewer systems. Yet it convinced the Florida legislature that it should be exempt from open record laws so no one can find out what it's doing.

It demands good press, shutting out unfavored reporters. When it can't persuade good news stories, it buys them with trips and junkets and hundreds of dollars of gifts to members of the media.

It's omnipotent and omnipresent. One cannot go anywhere without tripping over Disney mush.

It calls employees "cast members" and customers "guests." If I'm a guest, why do I have to pay?

It screws over its employee unions every chance it gets, but doesn't blink at paying an executive (Michael Orvitz) $90 million for a few months of work.

It's ready to sue anyone who so as much as draws an image of Mickey Mouse on a daycare wall.

It's so powerful it persuades Congress to extend the copyright act so its creations don't become part of the public realm, but is quick to use stories that are a part of the public realm so it doesn't have to pay royalties to mere writers.

It created a bad TV show (Making the Band) so it could create a bad band (O-Town) that sings a truly horrible song about a wet dream (Liquid Dreams, I kid you not).

Said bad band has played on a TV soap opera on Disney-owned ABC, been promoted on a Disney-owned ABC newsmagazine show, performed at the Miss America pageant on -- you guessed it, ABC -- and performed at none other than Disney World. As far as I know, the only public places it's played have been at Disney-owned establishment.

It named its NFBSK hockey team after a bad movie (The Mighty Ducks)for crying out loud.

It remade a bad, sappy movie into an even worse, sappier movie (Angels in the Outfield) just so it could buy and promote a bad, sappy baseball team, conveniently named the Angels. (The original movie was about the Pittsburgh Pirates).

It has destroyed dozens of good stories. Hercules was atrocious. The Hunchback of Norte Dame was an abomination (OK, it did have the one benefit that it pissed off the French). Pocahontas was, well, a nice story about a pedophile and his child bride.

It's mildly racist. Check out Peter Pan. Or the Jungle Book. Or its portrayal of minorities in any one of a dozen of its movies.

It's blatantly sexist. Is there a positive female character who isn't young and pretty? Or an older woman who's not mean and vicious and just plain stupid? It portrays women as weak individuals who just need a man to set them straight and rescue them.

Some of its ""kiddie" movies are truly horrible: Take Snow White: The tale of a woman who orders her step-daughter killed because she's jealous of her looks, but instead the girl is taken out to the forest and abandoned. Eventually, she winds up at a cabin of disgruntled, old, handicapped but rich (they own a diamond mine) men and winds UP KEEPING HOUSE FOR THEM FOR NOTHING! When she dies, they KEEP HER DEAD BODY IN A GLASS COFFIN SO THEY CAN OGLE IT EVERY DAY! (Yuck) She's eventually brought back to life, and traipses off with little more than a goodbye. (Let's see, child abandonment, worker exploitation, necrophilia, and a message that woman are to be judged on their looks and nothing else -- not bad for a day's work.)

Glurge, thy name is Disney.

Pogue "I ain't goin' to no freakin' Disney World" Mahone


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DataAngel
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quote:
Originally posted by Pogue Mahone:
Some of its ""kiddie" movies are truly horrible: Take Snow White: The tale of a woman who orders her step-daughter killed because she's jealous of her looks, but instead the girl is taken out to the forest and abandoned. Eventually, she winds up at a cabin of disgruntled, old, handicapped but rich (they own a diamond mine) men and winds UP KEEPING HOUSE FOR THEM FOR NOTHING! When she dies, they KEEP HER DEAD BODY IN A GLASS COFFIN SO THEY CAN OGLE IT EVERY DAY! (Yuck) She's eventually brought back to life, and traipses off with little more than a goodbye. (Let's see, child abandonment, worker exploitation, necrophilia, and a message that woman are to be judged on their looks and nothing else -- not bad for a day's work.)
Pogue "I ain't goin' to no freakin' Disney World" Mahone[/B]

You should read the original Snow White. Or the original Cinderella....

Data "Fairy Tales weren't meant for kids" Angel


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Brad from Georgia
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quote:
Originally posted by DataAngel:
You should read the original Snow White. Or the original Cinderella....


Data "Fairy Tales weren't meant for kids" Angel



Or the original "Sleeping Beauty"....

Brad "he didn't just KISS her" from Georgia


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Pogue Ma-humbug
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The original stories are one thing. But it was Disney who turned them into animated cartoons marketed to little kids.

Pogue "Dis Disney" Mahone


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Nonny Mouse, on Santa's laptop
Once in Royal Circuit City


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quote:
Originally posted by Brad from Georgia:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by DataAngel:
[b] You should read the original Snow White. Or the original Cinderella....


Data "Fairy Tales weren't meant for kids" Angel



Or the original "Sleeping Beauty"....

Brad "he didn't just KISS her" from Georgia

[/B][/QUOTE]

If I remember correctly, wasn't it giving birth to the twins concieved in her sleep that eventually woke her?

Nonny "Coma victim charges Prince with rape, demands child support. Film at 11." Mouse

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Doc Savage
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Eh, well, I say the less people that go to the theme parks, the better. Makes for shorter lines for the rest of us.
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Kamino Neko
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quote:
Originally posted by Nonny Mouse:
Re: Sleeping Beauty
If I remember correctly, wasn't it giving birth to the twins concieved in her sleep that eventually woke her?

Depends on the version...one version, at least, she sleeps through the birth, but when the kids try to suckle, they just grab whatever bodypart is handy, and one gets the finger with the sliver and sucks it out.

Tengu 'Let's not go into what the Prince's fetishes might have been...'


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Groucho
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I suspect that none of those is your real reason for hating Disney, and that your real reason is more personal...
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KingDavid8
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quote:
Originally posted by Pogue Mahone:
[B]It's blatantly sexist. Is there a positive female character who isn't young and pretty? Or an older woman who's not mean and vicious and just plain stupid? [B]

Ummm....plenty. There's the housekeeper in "101 Dalmations", the three fairies in "Sleeping Beauty", Mrs. Potts in "Beauty and the Beast", etc.

I'm not going to argue all of your points (I don't even disagree with them all, i.e. O-Town), but methinks you're mostly just seeing what you want to see.

David


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Nonny Mouse, on Santa's laptop
Once in Royal Circuit City


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quote:
Originally posted by Tengu:
Depends on the version...one version, at least, she sleeps through the birth, but when the kids try to suckle, they just grab whatever bodypart is handy, and one gets the finger with the sliver and sucks it out.

Tengu 'Let's not go into what the Prince's fetishes might have been...'


Okay, that was the version I was remembering. I just forgot that detail.

Nonny

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DizzyLizard
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My feelings on this tend to side with King David, and Groucho. It's apparent that you have gone out of your way to fixate on all that is wrong with Disney, why? What is your personal reasons for digging so deep into looking for all that is wrong with the company?

A big thumbs up to Doc Savage, too. There certainly have been a number of times where I've wished more people felt this way, so I could have a more enjoyable visit to Disneyland!

Dizzy "that Goofy, now he's a bad influence, making today's kids all dumb, and stuff" Lizard

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theangryQ
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It literally is its own government in Orlando -- with all the rights of a municipality, such as condemning property, creating its own police force, and building its own water and sewer systems. Yet it convinced the Florida legislature that it should be exempt from open record laws so no one can find out what it's doing.

I've heard of that place. "Celebration" is the name of the town, I think. I know a few people who went there. They said it's like Stepford; seriously frightening. If you own move in there, not only do you have to swear to only paint your house a certain color and all that crap, you have to sign an aggreement saying that, if you move out, you can't say why. Scary.


It has destroyed dozens of good stories. Hercules was atrocious. The Hunchback of Norte Dame was an abomination (OK, it did have the one benefit that it pissed off the French). Pocahontas was, well, a nice story about a pedophile and his child bride.

No argument there. BTW, Pocahontis never even married John Smith.

It's blatantly sexist. Is there a positive female character who isn't young and pretty? Or an older woman who's not mean and vicious and just plain stupid? It portrays women as weak individuals who just need a man to set them straight and rescue them.

Ursula is my personal role model. Ariel should have dumped that shallow prince and stayed with Flouder. You can tell that poor fish really loved her. Now that I think of it, Disney does provide some very cool female role models, only it shows them as being evil and whatnot.

Some of its ""kiddie" movies are truly horrible: Take Snow White: The tale of a woman who orders her step-daughter killed because she's jealous of her looks, but instead the girl is taken out to the forest and abandoned. Eventually, she winds up at a cabin of disgruntled, old, handicapped but rich (they own a diamond mine) men and winds UP KEEPING HOUSE FOR THEM FOR NOTHING! When she dies, they KEEP HER DEAD BODY IN A GLASS COFFIN SO THEY CAN OGLE IT EVERY DAY! (Yuck) She's eventually brought back to life, and traipses off with little more than a goodbye. (Let's see, child abandonment, worker exploitation, necrophilia, and a message that woman are to be judged on their looks and nothing else -- not bad for a day's work.)

Not to mention that the stupid movie seriously hurt future Goths. The evil queen was DEFINITELY better looking than Snow White. That little ditz only wished she could look that good in black.

Let's see, you pretty much covered anything. I'm not fond of Disney, particularly for its ruthless marketing strategies and the like, but you can hold that against just about any major corporation.

[This message has been edited by theangryQ (edited 01-25-2001).]


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Pogue Ma-humbug
Happy Christmas (Malls are Open)


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[QUOTE]Originally posted by DizzyLizard:
[B]. It's apparent that you have gone out of your way to fixate on all that is wrong with Disney, why? What is your personal reasons for digging so deep into looking for all that is wrong with the company?

Yes, so much better to remain dumb and happy.

I didn't go looking for reasons to hate Disney. It just kinda grew on me the more I read about the company and its money grubbing tactics.

I have kids, so unfortunately Disney has been a part of my life for the past 10 years.

Pogue "The Little Mermaid wears sea shells because B shells are too small and D shells are too big" Mahone


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Kamin
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quote:
Originally posted by Pogue Mahone:
Why do I hate Disney? Let me count the ways. (And it's not because I believe in -- or care about -- hidden messages.)

Perhaps the biggest reason I despise Disney is because of its blatant hypocrisy. It tries to present an image of a kind, cuddly Uncle Walt who will gently lull you to sleep with a story, but in reality is a cutthroat business that uses any means possible to squeeze an extra buck out of people.


Who said it can't run the business? Even Walt would admit it is a business and when you have as many people gunning for you, you have to be 'cutthroat.' Of course if you want 'cutthroat' go to the businesses AROUND Disney. The roadside stands will sell tourists no good tickets to attractions(Non-Disney as well)and then tell them to kiss their nfbsk when they try to get their money back.

quote:
It literally is its own government in Orlando -- with all the rights of a municipality, such as condemning property, creating its own police force, and building its own water and sewer systems. Yet it convinced the Florida legislature that it should be exempt from open record laws so no one can find out what it's doing.

Check again, Although Reedy Creck is in essence a "county" it answers to the state of Florida. So save the conspiracy theory. Btw, it's not in Orlando only next door.

quote:
It demands good press, shutting out unfavored reporters. When it can't persuade good news stories, it buys them with trips and junkets and hundreds of dollars of gifts to members of the media.

You obviously never read the Orlando Sentinel

quote:
It's omnipotent and omnipresent. One cannot go anywhere without tripping over Disney mush.

We knew you were going to say that and we know where you are. We're watching you right now.

quote:
It calls employees "cast members" and customers "guests." If I'm a guest, why do I have to pay?

Ok, so you're ticked that you have to pay to get in the parks...damn, I KNEW we should have taken Sea World and Universal's example of free admission...oh wait...you have to pay the same or MORE to get in those places.

quote:
It screws over its employee unions every chance it gets, but doesn't blink at paying an executive (Michael Orvitz) $90 million for a few months of work.

As a member of the union...heck I agree on this point. But you forgot Michael Eisner's $11.5 million

quote:
It's ready to sue anyone who so as much as draws an image of Mickey Mouse on a daycare wall.

Copyright protection, it looks as if Disney endorsed that ONE daycare center and since they have a contract with Le Petit Academy a "cease and desist" order was warranted.

quote:
It's so powerful it persuades Congress to extend the copyright act so its creations don't become part of the public realm, but is quick to use stories that are a part of the public realm so it doesn't have to pay royalties to mere writers.

Hmmm...you mean a LOBBY? Wow, I bet Disney is the ONLY organization to have one of THEM!

quote:
It created a bad TV show (Making the Band) so it could create a bad band (O-Town) that sings a truly horrible song about a wet dream (Liquid Dreams, I kid you not).

Said bad band has played on a TV soap opera on Disney-owned ABC, been promoted on a Disney-owned ABC newsmagazine show, performed at the Miss America pageant on -- you guessed it, ABC -- and performed at none other than Disney World. As far as I know, the only public places it's played have been at Disney-owned establishment.


Yes, O-Town SUCKS.

quote:
It named its NFBSK hockey team after a bad movie (The Mighty Ducks)for crying out loud.

The first one was decent, the other 42 sucked.

quote:
It remade a bad, sappy movie into an even worse, sappier movie (Angels in the Outfield) just so it could buy and promote a bad, sappy baseball team, conveniently named the Angels. (The original movie was about the Pittsburgh Pirates).

I grew up in Northeastern Ohio...the Pirates suck. Of course our battle cry was "Go Indians! and take the Browns with you!"

quote:
It has destroyed dozens of good stories. Hercules was atrocious. The Hunchback of Norte Dame was an abomination (OK, it did have the one benefit that it pissed off the French). Pocahontas was, well, a nice story about a pedophile and his child bride.

Oh yes, let's stick to the story of Hercules. We'll have him go mad, kill his family, do the labors and have a happy ending. Hunchback was well done in my opinion, but of course ruined in the fact that they couldn't have him die in the end. But Disney wasn't the first to change that ending.

quote:
It's mildly racist. Check out Peter Pan. Or the Jungle Book. Or its portrayal of minorities in any one of a dozen of its movies.

The movies you mention were made at a time when stereotypes were accepted as everyday fact. And even then, Disney never used the stereotypes like the mammy in the Tom and Jerry cartoons where that was the entire gag.

quote:
It's blatantly sexist. Is there a positive female character who isn't young and pretty? Or an older woman who's not mean and vicious and just plain stupid? It portrays women as weak individuals who just need a man to set them straight and rescue them.

Some were mentioned above but the Fairy Godmother has my vote as well and Grandmother Willow too.

quote:
Some of its ""kiddie" movies are truly horrible: Take Snow White: The tale of a woman who orders her step-daughter killed because she's jealous of her looks, but instead the girl is taken out to the forest and abandoned. Eventually, she winds up at a cabin of disgruntled, old, handicapped but rich (they own a diamond mine) men and winds UP KEEPING HOUSE FOR THEM FOR NOTHING! When she dies, they KEEP HER DEAD BODY IN A GLASS COFFIN SO THEY CAN OGLE IT EVERY DAY! (Yuck) She's eventually brought back to life, and traipses off with little more than a goodbye. (Let's see, child abandonment, worker exploitation, necrophilia, and a message that woman are to be judged on their looks and nothing else -- not bad for a day's work.)



    *disgruntled, old, handicapped? Grumpy was the only one complaining, Dopey was a kid and since when is being short a handicap? I want my sticker then.
    *winds UP KEEPING HOUSE FOR THEM FOR NOTHING! Room and board, dude
    *they KEEP HER DEAD BODY IN A GLASS COFFIN SO THEY CAN OGLE IT EVERY DAY! Paying their respects is hardly ogling.
    *child abandonment-hmm...get lost or die...not a hard choice (remember, the queen was the evil one).
    *worker exploitation-the dwarfs (note the spelling) were self-employed.
    *necrophilia-funny, in my version she was only kissed.
    *a message that woman are to be judged on their looks and nothing else-You're right, the fact that she was kind, gentle and worked hard got her no where.

It's a fairy tale, get over it

quote:
Glurge, thy name is Disney.


Yeah, I can't tell you how many times Disney keeps sending me that old yarn in the e-mail about the burlap boy

quote:
Pogue "I ain't goin' to no freakin' Disney World" Mahone

not even for a Scooby Snack? Awww...I'll miss you, but then my aim's always been off.

Ka"Is this what you were trolling for?"min

------------------
"I'm going to Walt Disney World!"

[This message has been edited by Kamin (edited 01-25-2001).]


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DizzyLizard
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Yes, so much better to remain dumb and happy.

I didn't go looking for reasons to hate Disney. It just kinda grew on me the more I read about the company and its money grubbing tactics.


There are plenty of instances in life where *choosing* to be "dumb and happy" has it's benefits. As far as corporations go, yes, there are times when one of them will do something that should be seriously scrutinized, and brought to the attention of the public, but, if I decided that I was going to go out, and do that kind of scrutinizing of every company, whose product I buy, for one, I'd be too busy to actually ever buy it, but, there's a better chance that I won't find any company that sells a product I'm interested in, that I would want to give my money to.

quote:
I have kids, so unfortunately Disney has been a part of my life for the past 10 years.


What point does this statement prove? You've lost me here. You have kids, so, that is why you know all of this information, it just somehow magically dropped in your lap as soon as you gave birth...? I also have kids, although I'd say that Disney has been a part of my life for much longer than I've been a parent, I grew up with it, too. Because there are some Disney movies that I allow my kids to watch, and because I take my kids to Disneyland, and allow them to have some Disney merchandise, does this somehow make me a bad parent? Nope. I am incredibly scrutinizing of what my kids watch, although, it's not dependant on the company that makes the film, or TV show, or whatnot, it's the content, and what I feel is appropriate for my kids, at whatever age they are, and what they show to be their comprehensive level. I refuse to raise my children in a bubble, so I will allow them to see things that are, or could be seen by some as, "bad", but I am also right there, helping them to better understand what it is that they are seeing. There is plenty that I absolutely refuse to allow my kids to see at this point in their life, but, monitoring what children are subjected to, be it TV, books, bad language, etc, isn't an open and shut ordeal, it's a way of having a say in what your children learn, and when, and making sure that they have the information neccesary to them in order to comprehend what they see in a healthy, and logical fashion. They're going to gain access to this stuff, and much worse, at some point, wouldn't it be better, in your mind, if you were the one who was there to help guide them?

Dizzy "prolonging innocence can lead to prolonged ignorance" Lizard

P.S. Great post, Kamin! I was waiting to see what your reply to this thread was going to be.

[This message has been edited by DizzyLizard (edited 01-25-2001).]


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Kamin
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quote:
Originally posted by DizzyLizard:


P.S. Great post, Kamin! I was waiting to see what your reply to this thread was going to be.

Why not? The "Pogue "I ain't goin' to no freakin' Disney World" Mahone" signature indicated he was trolling for me. Why disappoint?

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DizzyLizard
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Kamin - I never thought for a second that you would disappoint!

I've never been to WDW, but a friend of mine is leaving in just a few days, to be part of their intern program, so, there is a fairly good chance that I will be making my way down there sometime this summer. We'll have to figure out a way to meet up, so I can give you a big hug, and get my picture taken with you!

Dizzy "has always wanted to be a character" Lizard


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Kamin
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quote:
Originally posted by Pogue Mahone:

I didn't go looking for reasons to hate Disney. It just kinda grew on me the more I read about the company and its money grubbing tactics.

so it's the business, not the philosophy?

quote:
I have kids, so unfortunately Disney has been a part of my life for the past 10 years.

Gee, sorry your kids like us...My four kids seem to like the fact that they live behind the Magic Kingdom if that's any consolation.

quote:
Pogue "The Little Mermaid wears sea shells because B shells are too small and D shells are too big" Mahone


I got a chuckle out of this one

quote:
Originally posted by DizzyLizard:
I've never been to WDW, but a friend of mine is leaving in just a few days, to be part of their intern program, so, there is a fairly good chance that I will be making my way down there sometime this summer. We'll have to figure out a way to meet up, so I can give you a big hug, and get my picture taken with you!

No problem, See you real soon

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"I'm going to Walt Disney World!"

[This message has been edited by Kamin (edited 01-25-2001).]


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DizzyLizard
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Pogue Mahone - This whole thread has got me thinking, what things do you deem wholesome, and appropriate, for your children to watch, read, experience, etc...?

Dizzy "too tired to 'insert cute comment here'" Lizard


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The7thGuest
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I know I haven't been around here too long to say this, but I would like to tell you that if this fights continue, this msg board will turn into a slaughter house. This has already happened in a couple of other msg boards I visit. As a solution to that problem, I have something called the "so what?" concept. It's very simple: if you don't like something somebody has said, instead of flaming him/her you just politely tell them you point of view or you can IGNORE that person's post.
I know, I know... Kaming works for Disney. But I work for Junior Achievement, so imagine all the nasty things I hear everyday!!! (LOL!)
Besides, sometimes it's hard to know what a person really mean by a written message. You can misunderstand the mood of the message, and then you fight back and... instant slaughter house!. Let's all be friendly for a while, ok?.
I agree in many aspects with both Mahone and Kamin.
I agree with the media-thing, the day care-thing, the bad show, the sport teams and that they've ruined many original stories.
All the other things I agree with Kaming. Uh, excepf for one: even when a lot of companies have a lobby, that DOESN'T make it a right thing to do. I DO NOT agree with the "Everybody's doing it, so why can't we" concept.

The7thGuest - Dying is easy, it's living that scares me to death...


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trollface
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quote:
Originally posted by The7thGuest:
I know I haven't been around here too long to say this, but I would like to tell you that if this fights continue, this msg board will turn into a slaughter house.

Seems unlikely on snopes, check the thread about the death penalty in 'Petty Bickering' for proof; many people siting on different sides all not insulting each other. This is a very cool site.

Troll "we don't fight, we discuss" face

[This message has been edited by trollface (edited 01-26-2001).]


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Doc Savage
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by theangryQ:
[b]It literally is its own government in Orlando -- with all the rights of a municipality, such as condemning property, creating its own police force, and building its own water and sewer systems. Yet it convinced the Florida legislature that it should be exempt from open record laws so no one can find out what it's doing.

I've heard of that place. "Celebration" is the name of the town, I think.[/B]


Actually, Reedy Creek District is the part of the Disney property the OP refers to, I believe. They were set up back in the 60's and it encompasses the area contained within what is thought of as Walt Disney World, where the parks and hotels and such are located.

Celebration is an entirely different town that is also Disney's, not located on WDW property. I've looked into working there, as they have their own hospital, but I wasn't very impressed with the town. The hospital's nice, but too small for my taste. And the houses are over-priced.

By giving Disney the OK to self-regulate within the bounds of the WDW property, Florida got itself a huge economic boost. Pre-Disney, Orlando wasn't at all developed like it is now. Once Disney came, so did everybody else. So it's been a pretty good trade-off for the state and Disney both.

Doc


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Zenman
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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The Reedy Creek area of Florida also has better roads than the rest of the state, better sewage service, too. I worked out of the Orlando area for a time and saw what the city and county governments did to the areas around them, and in comparison, Disney is a saint. They ain't perfect, but to my eyes it was an improvement.
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Kamin
The Red and the Green Stamps


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Don't worry, 7th, I'm not THAT fanatical. I don't mind Pogue's comments or opinions and I'm not offended by them. This thread should be taken as nothing more as an expression of opinion. (I know now that if I sent Pogue comp tickets, they'd probably not be used. )
One thing about this board is that even the worst flame war I've seen folks were civil and tried to back up what they said with cites. One thing about the people on this board is that if it starts to become a slaughterhouse, most will drop the subject. I see it as agreeing to disagree. I hope to see more posts from Pogue. They are intelligent and seem honest. There is a great mix of ideas and beliefs on these threads and along with it, respect for them.

Ka"flame retardant"min

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"I'm going to Walt Disney World!"


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Cynestria
It Came Upon a Midnight Clearance


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This thread makes me sad. We can have rational, civilized discussions about abortion and the death penalty, but as soon as someone says they have a problem with disney, they get people ripping them apart.

And just for the record, I don't care if Snow White did get somewhere for being kind etc... She, like nearly every freaking other fairy tale woman, was still incapable of taking care of herself and had to wait around for a prince to come and rescue her. I can see where that isn't something people would want to teach their daughters. I sure as hell wouldn't.


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Brandi
Little Sales Drummer Boy


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Hey, I figure any company that can make a film like Fantasia is probably worth the oil it'll take to fry them in hell (to paraphrase Bierce).

Brandi [found Fantasia 2000 a touch disappointing, though.]


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Zenman
I'm Dreaming of a White Sale


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As much as I might disagree with the opinions stated above by the Poguemeister (and I don't disagree with all of them)he/she is entitled to them. I know from my own personal experience that there are aspects of Disney that I am quite cynical about. But do I hate it? Not by a long shot.
I've been involved with so much 'behind the scenes' stuff at Disneyland and elsewhere that I've developed what I feel is a good basis for comparison.

The Park operation I always compare with a huge dinosaur. It shoots iteslf in the foot and then six months later it realizes what happened ("ooooooooOOOOOOOOUUUUUCCCCCCCCHHHHHHHHH").
Yes, it is a money-making enterprise, but it never hides that fact. The entry fee is high but the visitor get very good value for the money.

The studio is often another example of show biz greed, powerplays and overkill, yet they continue to produce some of the best character-driven animation in the world (not everything, but most of it).

If you are looking for perfect, you won't find it at Disney or anyplace else in this sad, sorry world. If you can't find happiness in the small things, you sure as nfbsk won't find it in the big things, for they are all human enterprises and flawed, bound to disappoint.


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Pogue Ma-humbug
Happy Christmas (Malls are Open)


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The point I was trying to make was that Disney has enormous power with few limits. (Kamin, do you really trust the Florida lege to put limits on what Disney does?) The company doesn't always use that power for good, but to stock its own coffers. And I really believe Disney goes overboard with its marketing, beyond the limits even by today's standards.

Actually, I didn't mind it so much when Disney stuck with fairy tales and amusement parks. But now that it's branching out into sports, construction, history, mythology, television, etc. etc., I think it needs to be reined in.

I wasn't trying to say no one should pay to get in to Disney World. But calling employees "cast members" and customers "guests" is one of those silly things Disney does to try to get people to ignore the reality that it's a money-making business.

(BTW Kamin, you're right, I certainly wouldn't be using any comp tickets for Disney World. OTOH, my wife and kids ....)


DizzyLizard: Actually, I'm pretty liberal in letting my girls (10 and 5) choose what they want to watch, see, read and play with, within reason. I don't believe everything they see and touch needs to be wholesome -- sometimes, seeing the world's ugliness is an important part of growing up. Without it, they'll miss seeing the world's beauty.

But I know what they are watching and reading, and often talk with them about it. I've pointed out the weak portrayal of women in Disney, and my older daughter has told me she knows they are dumb stories I shouldn't take so seriously. I told my younger one that she shouldn't watch Peter Pan anymore because it made fun of Indians. She agreed it was mean, and she didn't want to see it again. So I do win some small battles.

Their favorite shows are on Nickelodeon, which I do like because of the diversity of characters. (I particularly enjoy "Hey, Arnold," and "Caitlin's Way") They also watch the Land Before Time series of videos, along with literally (and I use this word in its strictest sense) dozens of other videos. I also check out their reading material and what they are being taught in their textbooks -- which are, as a group, pretty awful.

Pogue "I love a good argument" Mahone

[This message has been edited by Pogue Mahone (edited 01-26-2001).]


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ashj
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by Cynestria:
This thread makes me sad. We can have rational, civilized discussions about abortion and the death penalty, but as soon as someone says they have a problem with disney, they get people ripping them apart.

I think this IS a pretty rational discussion. No one is calling each other names or being nasty.
Then again, I also think Pogue is trolling.

ash "just my opinion" j


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DizzyLizard
The Red and the Green Stamps


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Perhaps my choice of wording was wrong, just in the fact that it could come across as being inflammatory in nature, I'm sorry for that. The things I said are the same things that I would ask a person, if I were to be having the same conversation face to face. I did not understand this person's fixation on Disney in particular, so I asked about it, and the reply that I got, left a whole lot more to question, nothing more, and my question about what he does find appropriate for his kids was an honest one. It's one that I am very glad I asked, in fact, as the answer helps me to better understand where he's coming from, as far as what kind of judgement calls he makes for his kids, and how he handles the issues that are questionable to him. It sounds like he does take a very active role in helping his kids to understand, and comprehend what is being presented to them. There's nothing wrong with that, that's a sign of a good parent, to me. I'd have a far more difficult time with his stance had he said that he felt that way about Disney, so, no Disney was ever going to be allowed in his house, period.

Thank you Pogue, for your answer to my question, it cleared a lot of things up for me.

Dizzy "it's all in the presentation" Lizard

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Silas Sparkhammer
I Saw V-Chips Come Sailing In


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Many, many of Disney's characters are helpless, precisely because fairy tales are not "good drama." Fairy tales are "stream of consciousness" fantasy for very little kids. The characters rarely take any active measures to alter their fate.

Compare, then, to Disney's (wonderful!) treatment of Robin Hood (as lions and foxes and bears, oh my...) Robin *ACTS*! He's right up there, plotting, planning, acting in disguise, sneaking, spying, and theieving. He's just about the single most self-directed character in any Disney film!

(I also love the subtle theme that the wicked Normans are all African creatures, while the Anglo-Saxon peasantry are English creatures!)

I say hoorah for Disney for taking the blood, guts, amputations, and devourings out of stories, making them more accessible to all. (I can even cope with Peter and the Wolf, when the wolf *doesn't* swallow the poor stupid duck alive!)

You want to attack movies, attack those godawful "horror" things by Clive Barker where people have their skins ripped off and stagger about for minutes on a time dying messily. Those can go to the dickens; I'll watch Pinocchio again and shudder in delicious fear at Monstro as he comes roaring out of the depths!

Silas ("Kidnapped by pirates is good") Sparkhammer


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Nonny Mouse, on Santa's laptop
Once in Royal Circuit City


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quote:
Originally posted by Pogue Mahone:
I've pointed out the weak portrayal of women in Disney....

In general I have found this to be true, but my favorite Disney movie, Beauty and the Beast features a heroine who

A. Goes searching on her own for her missing father, rather than seeking male help. (Okay, maybe organizing a search party would have made more sense.)

B. Offers herself as a prisoner in her father's place, not knowing what her own fate will be. She doesn't look to him for protection, but risks everything to protect him.

C. Stands up to the Beast, even though her fate is completely in his hands. Refuses to be intimidated by his bullying.

D. Fights a pack of wolves. Sure, the Beast shows up to save her, but if you'll notice she took out a few before he got there. Your typical Disney heroine would have been cringing with her back against a tree, and become puppy chow.

E. Takes the Beast back to his castle, possibly losing her only chance for freedom, rather than let him die alone in the cold.

E. Risks her own safety to go back and warn the Beast about the angry mob that's coming to get him.

Weak? I don't think so, Tim....

Nonny

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www.geocities.com/ncmcphee

Into the Fire by Norma McPhee coming really, really soon from LTDBooks


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Kamin
The Red and the Green Stamps


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quote:
Originally posted by Pogue Mahone:
The point I was trying to make was that Disney has enormous power with few limits. (Kamin, do you really trust the Florida lege to put limits on what Disney does?)
I wasn't trying to say no one should pay to get in to Disney World. But calling employees "cast members" and customers "guests" is one of those silly things Disney does to try to get people to ignore the reality that it's a money-making business.

(BTW Kamin, you're right, I certainly wouldn't be using any comp tickets for Disney World. OTOH, my wife and kids ....)

Pogue "I love a good argument" Mahone


I like being a "cast member" rather than an "employee" and "guest" sounds better than "costomer" to me. but I digress. I agree that they are buzz words to make it sound better, but it does sound better. Well, if your wife and kids make it down this way, I'll see what I can do and oh, you too if you change your mind

(I think it's obvious I like a good "discussion, too)

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Cynestria:

This thread makes me sad. We can have rational, civilized discussions about abortion and the death penalty, but as soon as someone says they have a problem with disney, they get people ripping them apart.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Am I ripping Pogue apart? don't mean to. I'll keep the shredding to the minimum


And Silas...I ALWAYS enjoy your insight.(whether I agree or not) You have a tremendous way with words and get your point across beautifully! Thought you'd like to know. (Love Robin Hood btw)

Nonny, you made me look at Belle differently. Maybe she's like that because she's not a princess. Hmm, wonder why I never saw it before?

And I agree with Zenman that Disney's not perfect but it's not that bad


Ka"Did I miss anyone?"min

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"I'm going to Walt Disney World!"


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trollface
The Bills of St. Mary's


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quote:
Originally posted by Silas Sparkhammer:
You want to attack movies, attack those godawful "horror" things by Clive Barker where people have their skins ripped off and stagger about for minutes on a time dying messily.

In which the lone survivor is more often than not a strong woman. Wes Craven wrote the role of Nancy in A Nightmare On Elm Street as a strong role model for his newly-born daughter...

Oh, and let's not forget that we wouldn't have The Evil Dead, particularly the 'raped by a tree' scene, if it weren't for Disney's Snow White...

Troll "would rather have the nasty versions of fairy-tales" face

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Life is like a bog roll, it's only when you get to the end that you realise how much you've wasted.


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KingDavid8
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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Originally posted by DizzyLizard:
quote:
. It's apparent that you have gone out of your way to fixate on all that is wrong with Disney, why? What is your personal reasons for digging so deep into looking for all that is wrong with the company?

Originally posted by Pogue Mahone:

quote:
Yes, so much better to remain dumb and happy.

I didn't go looking for reasons to hate Disney.


Maybe I'm confused, then, but why did you state that Disney has no positive older, less-attractive females in their movies? If you've seen even a few of them, you've certainly seen such characters. I really think that if you were looking at these movies without bias, you wouldn't have missed that. As far as the way the company's run, I agree that they aren't as nice as they probably should be. But as for their movies, I think they're overall very good for our kids. I can't think of any other movie studio whose films I'll let my kids watch without worrying about what their heads are getting filled with.

David "Snow white was kicked out of Disney World because she was feeling Grumpy" Anderson


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