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Author Topic: Which hand do you use to NFBSK yourself?
Mistletoey Chloe
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Perhaps. But in my book, perfection would also include a world of adults who aren't turned on by the idea of sex with children or teenagers, whether that is strictly fantasy, or otherwise.

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Mistletoey Chloe
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quote:
Originally posted by Midgard_Dragon:
ETA - And if you're implying I said 16 year olds in Britain were considered old enough to drive, reread my clarification.

You said: "Those 16 year old children, that can't take care of themselves, drive a car, hold a job....err wait. :/"

Now admittedly, sarcasm is difficult to read. So did you mean that 16 year olds in Britain could or could not do those things on the list?

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erwins
Deck the Malls


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quote:
Originally posted by Chloe:
Perhaps. But in my book, perfection would also include a world of adults who aren't turned on by the idea of sex with children or teenagers, whether that is strictly fantasy, or otherwise.

Do you think someone reading about teenagers having sex must themselves be turned on by the idea of having sex with those teenagers?

If I read a novel in which I'm turned on by the description of straight people having sex, does that mean I'm turned on by the idea of having sex with them?

'Cause, I can answer that with an emphatic "no."

And I've got to say that I always get a little nervous when people start prescribing an orthodoxy of sexual thought. Sure, there are things I find icky. But then, what I find icky, the majority of the population thinks is great.

erwins

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Midgard_Dragon
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quote:
Originally posted by Chloe:
quote:
Originally posted by Midgard_Dragon:
ETA - And if you're implying I said 16 year olds in Britain were considered old enough to drive, reread my clarification.

You said: "Those 16 year old children, that can't take care of themselves, drive a car, hold a job....err wait. :/"

Now admittedly, sarcasm is difficult to read. So did you mean that 16 year olds in Britain could or could not do those things on the list?

Use the whole quote:

quote:
And this thread was doing so well, I thought those talking about their slash enjoyment would be left to their devices and this thread could go on being what it was about, but I guess if it involves anyone under the age of 18 (even if in the country the fiction takes place in 16 is the legal age) then it's pedophilia and it's an absolute must that someone must call them out. Because we must think of the children. Those 16 year old children, that can't take care of themselves, drive a car, hold a job....err wait. :/
My sarcasm indicated that those 16 year old children, that we in the US trust to drive a car and hold a job, should be able to make sexual decisions about what to do and not do with their body.

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Midgard_Dragon
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quote:
Originally posted by Chloe:
Perhaps. But in my book, perfection would also include a world of adults who aren't turned on by the idea of sex with children or teenagers, whether that is strictly fantasy, or otherwise.

I'm very very glad we do not live in the world "in your book". The only way to get there is to police thoughts, expect people to censor there fantasies, and otherwise not be turned on by something unorthodox. If they act on it, then they should be arrested and dealt with (although I do think the current age of consent is a bit high considering teenager's sex drives), but fantasies are just that, fantasies.

Thank God that cooler heads prevail in the situation of fantasies so far.

quote:
And I've got to say that I always get a little nervous when people start prescribing an orthodoxy of sexual thought.
Amen. Word. Truth. Etc.

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erwins
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quote:
Originally posted by Chloe:
quote:
Originally posted by Midgard_Dragon:
ETA - And if you're implying I said 16 year olds in Britain were considered old enough to drive, reread my clarification.

You said: "Those 16 year old children, that can't take care of themselves, drive a car, hold a job....err wait. :/"

Now admittedly, sarcasm is difficult to read. So did you mean that 16 year olds in Britain could or could not do those things on the list?

Where did Midgard say he was talking exclusively about Britain?

Surely it is relevant that, while laws in individual countries might differ, a significant portion of 16 year olds are permitted to drive. Hence, 16 year olds can drive cars, hold jobs, and take care of themselves.

erwins

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Ana Ng
Let There Be PCs on Earth


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To open a can of worms atop a can of worms, this is like the abortion debate. So incredibly little fanfic could be described as "pedophilic", just as the majority of abortions are not late term.

Furthermore, if you're not focused on the age of the participants, and rather the content, dialogue, and pr0n, then it's not even a tetchy issue.

And Chloe, LMS is trying to figure out brit slang from context, so cut her a break, okay?

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Llewtrah
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Aimed at everyone and no-one in particular and harking back to the OP: so which hands, if any, are we NFBSKing ourselves with while we are reviewing all this slash to see if it is good, bad, pervy or illegal [Wink]

This is almost like Godwin's Law ... any Snopes discussion if sufficiently prolonged is likely to turn to age-of-consent related matters!

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Midgard_Dragon
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Age of consent or copyright. You forgot copyright. [Wink]

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Llewtrah
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quote:
Originally posted by Midgard_Dragon:
Age of consent or copyright. You forgot copyright. [Wink]

That "law" needs a name! Munchkin's Law? All discussion groups have their pet topics, seemingly done to death many times over, but to which conversation often returns. In my usenet haunts we have

Nieveler's law: "Any USENET thread, if sufficiently prolonged and not Godwinated, will eventually turn into a discussion about alcoholic drinks." (although cooking comes up a lot too, especially recipes involving alcohol)

Johnson's Law: "Any thread with Mr McCall, Ms Hotdesking and Mr Sandstrom participating will sooner rather than later (d)evolve into smut." (often classy smut, but smut nonetheless)

Perhaps we should bear in mind that there are "laws of slash" (related to ages and combinations) just as there are the "laws of Disney" (for cartoon violence)? Both are potential causes of unease as they may depict unnatural, illegal or distasteful activities that must remain fantasy and not be acted out in real life.

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Tarquin Farquart
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quote:
Originally posted by Llewtrah:
That "law" needs a name! Munchkin's Law? All discussion groups have their pet topics, seemingly done to death many times over, but to which conversation often returns. In my usenet haunts we have

Nieveler's law: "Any USENET thread, if sufficiently prolonged and not Godwinated, will eventually turn into a discussion about alcoholic drinks." (although cooking comes up a lot too, especially recipes involving alcohol)

Johnson's Law: "Any thread with Mr McCall, Ms Hotdesking and Mr Sandstrom participating will sooner rather than later (d)evolve into smut." (often classy smut, but smut nonetheless)

At the risk of descending into smut, why is it called Johnson's Law?

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Tarquin Farquart
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smutty waffles

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I shall baffle you with cabbages and rhinoceroses in the kitchen and incessant quotations from "Now We Are Six" through the mouthpiece of Lord Snooty's giant poisoned electric head. So there!

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Midgard_Dragon
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I thought that was obvious. [lol] My guess, not being involved in that forum, is it's called Johnson law for the most obvious reason possible, what Johnson is a synonym for.

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Tarquin Farquart
The First USA Noel


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quote:
Originally posted by Midgard_Dragon:
I thought that was obvious. [lol] My guess, not being involved in that forum, is it's called Johnson law for the most obvious reason possible, what Johnson is a synonym for.

Well that's what I thought initially, but then I considered it could be someone's name and I didn't want to make a smutty remark if it was. [Smile] (thus invoking the law trying to define it)

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I shall baffle you with cabbages and rhinoceroses in the kitchen and incessant quotations from "Now We Are Six" through the mouthpiece of Lord Snooty's giant poisoned electric head. So there!

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Llewtrah
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quote:
Originally posted by Midgard_Dragon:
I thought that was obvious. [lol] My guess, not being involved in that forum, is it's called Johnson law for the most obvious reason possible, what Johnson is a synonym for.

IIRC, it was named in honour of the person who spotted the trend rather than the body part.

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Nonny Mouse, on Santa's laptop
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quote:
Originally posted by Midgard_Dragon:
Age of consent or copyright. You forgot copyright. [Wink]

And when discussing Harry Potter slash, there's a good chance we'll dredge up both subjects at once!

Nonny

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Mistletoey Chloe
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quote:
Originally posted by erwins:
quote:
Originally posted by Chloe:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Midgard_Dragon:
[qb] ETA - And if you're implying I said 16 year olds in Britain were considered old enough to drive, reread my clarification.

You said: "Those 16 year old children, that can't take care of themselves, drive a car, hold a job....err wait. :/"

Now admittedly, sarcasm is difficult to read. So did you mean that 16 year olds in Britain could or could not do those things on the list?

quote:
Where did Midgard say he was talking exclusively about Britain?
"[E]ven if in the country the fiction takes place in 16 is the legal age."

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Mistletoey Chloe
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by Midgard_Dragon:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chloe:
[qb] Perhaps. But in my book, perfection would also include a world of adults who aren't turned on by the idea of sex with children or teenagers, whether that is strictly fantasy, or otherwise.

quote:
I'm very very glad we do not live in the world "in your book". The only way to get there is to police thoughts, expect people to censor there fantasies, and otherwise not be turned on by something unorthodox.
You have a strange idea of perfection--a concept you were the one to bring up, btw--if in a perfect world the only way to get rid of adult/child sexual fantasies is by the thought police. A perfect world would not need such a thing, in my book.

Let me spell this out: I am not telling anyone what they can and cannot be turned on by. I have said nothing about using the force of law. I have said nothing about the acceptability of sexual encounters between young people of a similar age. I am not confusing pedophilia with statutory rape. I have called no one here a pedophile, a monster, a weasel, or any other name. My only comment about LMS's misuse of "snogging" was to point out to her, politely, that I thought she was misusing it, and then when she said that "they" demonstrated it, to ask what she meant (I still have no idea). I am unclear what cutting her a break would look like in comparison. Does that cover all the misreadings of my posts so far? Oh, yes: ETA, one more time for those who didin't pick it up the last couple of times I said it; I am not indicting fanfic or slash in general becauuse elements of it are pedophilic, any more than I would indict the internet as a whole or movies as a whole on the same grounds. Frankly, I'm fed up of discussions where what someone actually writes is ignored in favor of the easy target of one the reader is *assuming* that he or she writes. It's lazy and pointless.

However, personally, I would steer clear of materials that described sexual encounters between children and adults, and I would not patronize a site or forum that did not do the same. People's mileage may, of course, vary, but I would personally be leery of those whose mileage seems to vary significantly from this.

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BeachLife
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quote:
Originally posted by Chloe:
...However, personally, I would steer clear of materials that described sexual encounters between children and adults, and I would not patronize a site or forum that did not do the same. People's mileage may, of course, vary, but I would personally be leery of those whose mileage seems to vary significantly from this.

But Chloe there is nothing wrong with going to a child porn site so long as you either only look at the porn that does not include children or just make sure you aren't sexually aroused by it.

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robbiev - singin' off key
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quote:
Originally posted by Midgard_Dragon:
WTH? She *is* cute, and it's not like you said you want to f*ck her, as far as I can tell. Jesus, people, the pedophile-witch-hunt has gone too far when someone can't talk about FICTION or say they think a younger person is "cute" without getting slammed for it or called a pedophile.

Exactly my point in the other thread. After saying I thought she was cute, I had to respond later by saying, "I never said I wanted to NFBSK her. I simply said I thought she was cute. I think puppies are cute. It doesn't mean I get a woody when I see a puppy."

Or something along those lines.

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Mistletoey Chloe
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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quote:
Originally posted by BeachLife:
But Chloe there is nothing wrong with going to a child porn site so long as you either only look at the porn that does not include children or just make sure you aren't sexually aroused by it.

Now you are just deliberately stirring up trouble. [Smile]

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Midgard_Dragon
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
"[E]ven if in the country the fiction takes place in 16 is the legal age."
And once again you're not using the whole quote, but rather chosing parts of it and fitting them together to make your point.

quote:
And this thread was doing so well, I thought those talking about their slash enjoyment would be left to their devices and this thread could go on being what it was about, but I guess if it involves anyone under the age of 18 (even if in the country the fiction takes place in 16 is the legal age) then it's pedophilia and it's an absolute must that someone must call them out.
Quote part the first. Talking about the fact that the country the fiction takes place in has a legal age of consent of 16, and yet we in the US feel that since our legal age is 18 that anything under that is pedophilia.

quote:
Because we must think of the children. Those 16 year old children, that can't take care of themselves, drive a car, hold a job....err wait. :/
A quote in general about 16 year olds, who in the US and several other places can drive a car, hold a job, and take care of themselves. Nowhere was the UK used in the last part of my sentence, or any country specified for that matter.

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Mistletoey Chloe
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quote:
Originally posted by Midgard_Dragon:
"E]ven if in the country the fiction takes place in 16 is the legal age."

quote:
And once again you're not using the whole quote, but rather chosing parts of it and fitting them together to make your point.
Nothing is "fitted together" here. You wrote this all as it stands.

quote:
And this thread was doing so well, I thought those talking about their slash enjoyment would be left to their devices and this thread could go on being what it was about, but I guess if it involves anyone under the age of 18 (even if in the country the fiction takes place in 16 is the legal age) then it's pedophilia and it's an absolute must that someone must call them out.
quote:
Quote part the first. Talking about the fact that the country the fiction takes place in has a legal age of consent of 16, and yet we in the US feel that since our legal age is 18 that anything under that is pedophilia.
I see no mention of the US. Or "we," for that matter.

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Midgard_Dragon
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by Chloe:
quote:
Originally posted by BeachLife:
But Chloe there is nothing wrong with going to a child porn site so long as you either only look at the porn that does not include children or just make sure you aren't sexually aroused by it.

Now you are just deliberately stirring up trouble. [Smile]
Not to mention making a flawed comparison. Written erotica/slash/whatever involving children is not harming a child, whereas taking a child's picture naked or in sexual positions, is harming that child. I would argue this isn't true for people in their late teens who consent to have their picture taken or take it themselves, but since that is currently included in the definition of child pornography in the US, then by the law it is technically harming the "child."

Thus, "there is nothing wrong with" reading slash/erotica/whatsits involving children. And frankly, I don't care if you get your jollies off by reading about it, so long as you don't go out and do it or get involved in child pornography.

We seem to be forgetting the purposes of these age of consent laws. It's not because we need to punish people who may or may not act on some fantasy, it's to protect children from being harmed either by having a pornographic picture of them shown and distributed (and taken, even) or by being put into a sexual situation that they likely don't understand and can't give consent for.

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Midgard_Dragon
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Originally posted by Chloe:
quote:
Originally posted by Midgard_Dragon:
[QB] [QUOTE]"[E]ven if in the country the fiction takes place in 16 is the legal age."

quote:
And once again you're not using the whole quote, but rather chosing parts of it and fitting them together to make your point.
Nothing is "fitted together" here. You wrote this all as it stands.

quote:
And this thread was doing so well, I thought those talking about their slash enjoyment would be left to their devices and this thread could go on being what it was about, but I guess if it involves anyone under the age of 18 (even if in the country the fiction takes place in 16 is the legal age) then it's pedophilia and it's an absolute must that someone must call them out.
quote:
Quote part the first. Talking about the fact that the country the fiction takes place in has a legal age of consent of 16, and yet we in the US feel that since our legal age is 18 that anything under that is pedophilia.
I see no mention of the US. Or "we," for that matter.

I mentioned 18, which is the age of consent in the US, it seems quite a few people other than you understand where I was coming from, so sorry you don't get it.

ETA - And quite frankly, you're letting your views on this get in the way of what quite a few other people can see clearly. I didn't state that anyone could drive at 16 in the UK. I didn't say anything about the UK, actually, so if you're just upset over words that weren't used, well, there you go, UK wasn't used either.

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Mistletoey Chloe
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So when I see the number 18, I should assume you mean the US as a matter of course? What a odd suggestion.

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Midgard_Dragon
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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No, what I'm asking you to do is use context clues so I don't have to write "United States of America" every time I need to mention the US. I believe most of us were taught that at some point in grammar school.

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GenYus
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I think this thread is done.

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IIRC, it wasn't the shoe bomber's loud prayers that sparked the takedown by the other passengers; it was that he was trying to light his shoe on fire. Very, very different. Canuckistan

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Midgard_Dragon
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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I'm sure we will respect your all-knowing idea of when a thread is done or not. [Wink]

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Mistletoey Chloe
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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I'm sorry I'm so dense, and promise that next time you type the numbers 1 and 8 in close proximity, I will remember that you really mean "we in the US." I can't believe I missed it the first time.

As for assuming your reference to "the country the fiction takes place in" where "16 is the legal age" in the context of a discussion of Harry Potter fanfic was a reference to the UK, something it has only just occurred to you to deny, well, I can't imagine what I was thinking.

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~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~

Posts: 10111 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Midgard_Dragon
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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I never denied that the bit about where the stories take place was in reference to the UK, I said that I never *said* the UK, because, frankly, you're hung up on letters that *aren't* there meaning that it must not be in reference to something else. I mentioned age of consent being 18, with context clues to what I was talking about, as well as living in the US (which one can clearly see at the bottom of all my posts), no need to spell it out for most people, but apparently you needed it that way, so I will reword my quote just for you, mmkay?

quote:
And this thread was doing so well, I thought those talking about their slash enjoyment would be left to their devices and this thread could go on being what it was about, but I guess if it involves anyone under the age of 18, which is the age of consent in the US, where I live and this is what I'm talking about (even if in the country the fiction takes place in 16 is the legal age, which is the UK, just so everyone knows) then it's pedophilia and it's an absolute must that someone must call them out. Because we must think of the children. Those 16 year old children, that in other countries like the US can't take care of themselves, drive a car, hold a job....err wait, yes they can in other countries like the US, just not the UK.

Just to clarify, I was talking about the US and the UK up there, in case anyone missed it.



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Midgard Dragon
-==UDIC==-
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Posts: 2455 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Mistletoey Chloe
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV


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Well done. It certainly makes at least as much sense this way round.

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~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~

Posts: 10111 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Midgard_Dragon
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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quote:
Well done. It certainly makes at least as much sense this way round.
It certainly made plenty of sense to people other than you. Again, sorry if by not including two letters you missed the entire point. I can't be responsible for your understanding what I say, when I've already said it clearly, though.

ETA - And frankly, I'm sick of squabling about semantics, so I'm done with this. If you wish to continue arguing about people who read stories about sexual situations with children being pedophiles, I'll be happy to continue offering my opinion on that, because quite frankly it's the silliest thing I've ever heard and I'm getting quite a kick out of it. [Wink]

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Posts: 2455 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
Hans Off
Markdown, the Herald Angels Sing


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It cannot be done until someone says this...


The legal age for driving in the UK is 17.


Mwaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahaha.!


Ergo Hans Off wins the whole debate.


(applause please!)

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"British English speakers point to Americans adding more syllables so that they can make even more noise without actually saying anything." Llewtrah


Posts: 2235 | From: Sussex , UK | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
meanjelly
Happy Holly Days


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18 is not the age of consent for the US.
Some states are 18 some are less.

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Education... has produced a vast population able to read but unable to distinguish what is worth reading.
G. M. Trevelyan (1876 - 1962), English Social History (1942)

Posts: 1443 | From: Portland, OR | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a moderator
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