quote:Nine firefighters who refused to offer safety advice to people attending a gay pride march have been disciplined. A watch manager in Glasgow has been demoted to crew manager with a £5,000 salary cut. The remaining firefighters were given a written warning.
Strathclyde Fire and Rescue said all nine would undergo diversity training. A spokesman said: "The nine now accept that they should have performed their duties. Their refusal was a fundamental breach of their core responsibilities."
-------------------- Silence should never under any circumstances be construed as agreement. A lot of the time, it's simply a reflection that someone just said something so stupid that no response could possibly do it justice. - Ramblin' Dave Posts: 8528 | From: Nottingham, England | Registered: Feb 2000
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The bishop is quoted as saying: "There was no question of these officers' competency or commitment being called into question".
I think that there is a question about their commitment if they refuse to carry out their duties (which presumably include handing out safety leaflets) to a particular section of the population.
I will be interested to see if any Tribunal action gets going related to discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation or religious belief.
-------------------- I want you to lay down your life, Perkins. We need a futile gesture at this stage. It will raise the whole tone of the war. Posts: 4495 | From: Surrey, UK | Registered: Jun 2000
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quote:Their refusal was a fundamental breach of their core responsibilities."
While I may disagree with the reasoning of the firemen, I still have to comment on that statement. I may be stupid, but I thought that the core responsibility of a fireman was to put out fires, not to hand out leaflets? Could someone have confused them with postmen?
-------------------- /Troberg Posts: 4360 | From: Borlänge, Sweden | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Handing out leaflets would seem to be part of their community safety duties. Like going round schools and telling children not to play with matches. Part of the reasoning behind recent industrial disputes involving the fire service has been that the modern firefighter doesn't just put out fires.
-------------------- I want you to lay down your life, Perkins. We need a futile gesture at this stage. It will raise the whole tone of the war. Posts: 4495 | From: Surrey, UK | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
Indeed the Fire Brigade does put a lot of effort into educating the public about potential fire hazards. Here's a link from the London Fire Brigade:
They carry out home and office safety checks. A while back our local fire brigade were offering vouchers for money off against enclosed deep fat fryers if you turned your old open pan in.
It's better for the fire brigade to prevent even one fire, than to have to tackle it. There is the possibility of injury or loss of life, not least to the fire personnel, also if you want to be un-sentimental the cost of a few thousand leaflets is probably cheaper than one 'shout.'
-------------------- "Ladies and gentlemen, this is what is commonly known as money. It comes in all sizes, colours, and denominations - like people." Posts: 997 | From: Maidstone, UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:"They were asked, while in uniform, to hand out leaflets during a demonstration where they had legitimate concerns about being the subject of taunts and jokes, and in which in some cases, their religious sensibilities would have been grossly offended by people dressed as priests and nuns lampooning the Church."
I wonder if they have a similar attitude when on call? "We repeatedly tried to enter the burning building, but were beaten back by the sight of a man dressed as a nun"
Posts: 1710 | From: Newcastle, UK | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
It would be a simple matter of confusion. Upon hearing there were faggots in the house, they would be confused between the american slang useage, and the meaning of a bundle of dried twigs used to start a fire.
-------------------- "Ladies and gentlemen, this is what is commonly known as money. It comes in all sizes, colours, and denominations - like people." Posts: 997 | From: Maidstone, UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Their refusal was a fundamental breach of their core responsibilities."
While I may disagree with the reasoning of the firemen, I still have to comment on that statement. I may be stupid, but I thought that the core responsibility of a fireman was to put out fires, not to hand out leaflets? Could someone have confused them with postmen?
The German firebrigades slogan is "Schützen - Retten - Löschen - Bergen" ("To Protect - To Rescue - To Extinquish - To Recover"). I would guess that handing out savety leaflets (to whomever) falls under the "Schützen/To Protect" label.
Don Enrico
-------------------- My spelling is Wobbly. It's good spelling, but it Wobbles, and the letters get in the wrong places. - Pooh Bear Posts: 2209 | From: Hamburg, Germany | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:The German firebrigades slogan is "Schützen - Retten - Löschen - Bergen" ("To Protect - To Rescue - To Extinquish - To Recover"). I would guess that handing out savety leaflets (to whomever) falls under the "Schützen/To Protect" label.
Aha, now I see. I misunderstood the issue.
I was under the impression that they were supposed to hand out gay rights leaflets, which, while being a noble thing to do, hardly prevents any fires.
If they didn't hand out fire prevention leaflets because there were gays present, then they made a mistake.
-------------------- /Troberg Posts: 4360 | From: Borlänge, Sweden | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Yep, in the same way I couldn't refuse to hand out leaflets to the catholic church because I may disagree with the bigotry that seems to have permiated its ranks, others cannot refuse to hand out leaflets to homosexuals because of their own feelings toward them.
I will admit when I started reading I thought they were talking about handing out pro-gay leaflets during the march, but once it became clear that they were supposed to just be doing their job everything fell into place.
A big part of being a firefighter in general, and certainly these days, is public service, this is not simply putting out fires but helping in many other ways..
In fact, any firefighter who wants to limit his or her practice to only working on "fire" related calls will likely find himself out of work as in most areas only 20% or so of the years calls are fire related (more in some areas, less in some areas of course), the rest are generally medical.
-------------------- "All people are responsible for the good that they didn't do" Posts: 4774 | From: Virginia | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Mickey Blue: A big part of being a firefighter in general, and certainly these days, is public service, this is not simply putting out fires but helping in many other ways..
In my area, one service our volunteer and paid fire departments offer is car seat checks- once you've installed your baby carseat, you can make an appointment to go to your local FD and have someone there check and make sure you've installed the seat correctly.
-------------------- "Seize the day! Make your lives extraordinary!" -John Keating, "Dead Poets Society" Posts: 2861 | From: New Jersey | Registered: May 2004
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Well, I doubt they would have refused to give leaflets to little old ladies so their refusal is clearly not caused by the act of handing out leaflets, but who the leaflets are being handed to. I think it's appalling. Does a police officer get to refuse to help a Catholic because he is Jewish? When those same firefighters go into a burning house, do they check the sexual orientation of the victims before they carry them to safety? I'm disgusted.
Then again, teh gay is the deal breaker, isn't it? Apparently, it is The Great Sin. Its existence in a situation overrides all logic, ethics, duty, morality, or humanity. I keep forgetting that!
My cynical and sarcastic view is that they were probably afraid that being around all those "queers" might somehow make them gay by association. Many firefighters I know, though certainly noble, necessary, and professional, are often pretty arrogant when it comes to their sex appeal (and usually rightfully so). Maybe they were afraid some of the gays would hit on them and - worse yet - that they would be tempted!
-------------------- "I bet a funny thing about driving a car off a cliff is, while you're in midair, you still hit those brakes. Hey, better try the emergency brake." -Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey Posts: 245 | From: Gladstone, MO | Registered: Apr 2006
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Is anyone else's brain trying to produce a joke about fire and gays going to Hell? (Not that I believe it--just that the firemen in question do!)
-------------------- "Well, it looks we're on our own ... again."--Rev. Lovejoy Posts: 3572 | From: St. Louis, MO | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Eddylizard: It would be a simple matter of confusion. Upon hearing there were faggots in the house, they would be confused between the american slang useage, and the meaning of a bundle of dried twigs used to start a fire.
YOMANK! And I owe you a drink!
Silas
Posts: 16801 | From: San Diego, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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Canuckistan
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posted
quote:Originally posted by Chloe:
quote:Originally posted by Troberg: If they didn't hand out fire prevention leaflets because there were gays present, then they made a mistake.
Behaving in a bigoted way is not a mistake, it is a conscious decision.
I think Troberg meant more in an ethical sense. They were aware of what they were doing; but they were still wrong to do so.
-------------------- People need to stop appropriating Jesus as their reason for behaving badly. It's so irritating. (Avril) Posts: 8429 | From: New York run by the Swiss (Toronto) | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:1. an error in action, calculation, opinion, or judgment caused by poor reasoning, carelessness, insufficient knowledge, etc.
quote:5. to be in error.
Both seem to fit the OP.
-------------------- People need to stop appropriating Jesus as their reason for behaving badly. It's so irritating. (Avril) Posts: 8429 | From: New York run by the Swiss (Toronto) | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
But that lets people off the hook. Affairs are not mistakes. Doing something bigoted is not a mistake. They may be things you regret, but that is not the same thing. Even if that's the dictionary definition, it's too easy a defense. "Gee, I'm sorry I killed those kids driving drunk. I made a horrible mistake." No.
-------------------- ~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~ Posts: 10111 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Sep 2004
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Canuckistan
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posted
I guess it comes down to what you said earlier: not a mistake in your book. To me, mistake doesn't always imply accidental. It's just an error made -- whether the action was deliberate or not. YMMV, obviously.
-------------------- People need to stop appropriating Jesus as their reason for behaving badly. It's so irritating. (Avril) Posts: 8429 | From: New York run by the Swiss (Toronto) | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Hmmm. I first read this as 'Catholic Church supports "gay sub" firemen'. I wondered what led to that change in attitudes. And if the gay dom firemen were still condemed to hell.
-------------------- So many spankings! It feels so good! But at the same time, I don't care about meeting your family! - I'mNotDedalus: Posts: 3216 | From: Denver, CO | Registered: Dec 2005
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Canuckistan
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posted
See, that would be surprising. After all, you'd expect the gay sub firemen to confess that they've been bad, bad boys.
-------------------- People need to stop appropriating Jesus as their reason for behaving badly. It's so irritating. (Avril) Posts: 8429 | From: New York run by the Swiss (Toronto) | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Eddylizard: It would be a simple matter of confusion. Upon hearing there were faggots in the house, they would be confused between the american slang useage, and the meaning of a bundle of dried twigs used to start a fire.
YOMANK! And I owe you a drink!
Silas
Sorry Silas,I'm a bit hard up at the moment. This is the best I can offer you:
-------------------- "Ladies and gentlemen, this is what is commonly known as money. It comes in all sizes, colours, and denominations - like people." Posts: 997 | From: Maidstone, UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
I'm confused - were they asked to hand out safety information to people participating in a gay rights parade? I'd be on the firefighters side there, especially because it sounds like entrapment to me. Perhaps I'm not understanding the situation, because I read the article a few times to try and figure out what was going on, but as I went to read it another time for info, the BBC decided it hated me.
-------------------- "One original thought is worth a thousand mindless quotings." -- Diogenes
"Vote Republican! We won't burn you at the stake for your religious beliefs or slaughter your family and steal your land." -- Ramblin' Dave Posts: 3555 | From: Florida | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
"A Roman Catholic Archbishop" is not the "Roman Catholic Church". The article said this man gave his support to the firefighters. Does that mean he speaks on behalf of the Church or on behalf of Catholics everywhere or that he was speaking on behalf of himself?
-------------------- If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr Posts: 18428 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Anpan Rebochan: I'm confused - were they asked to hand out safety information to people participating in a gay rights parade? I'd be on the firefighters side there, especially because it sounds like entrapment to me.
That is what they were asked to do. I thought the OP article made it pretty clear.
How are you defining entrapment?
-------------------- How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black Posts: 8322 | From: Columbus, OH | Registered: Aug 2005
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Canuckistan
Ding Dong! Merrily on High Definition TV
posted
quote:Originally posted by Anpan Rebochan: I'm confused - were they asked to hand out safety information to people participating in a gay rights parade? I'd be on the firefighters side there, especially because it sounds like entrapment to me.
How so?
Does this fire department do this kind of thing often, at various types of parades? If so, it's not entrapment. Even if it's something they're planning on doing on a regular basis, it wouldn't be entrapment.
Now, if they handed out flyers at a gay pride parade, and refused to do this at other parades, you might have a point. But this situation seems rather unlikely to me.
ETA: somewhat spanked by Lainie after being entrapped in this debate!
-------------------- People need to stop appropriating Jesus as their reason for behaving badly. It's so irritating. (Avril) Posts: 8429 | From: New York run by the Swiss (Toronto) | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Anpan Rebochan: I'm confused - were they asked to hand out safety information to people participating in a gay rights parade? I'd be on the firefighters side there, especially because it sounds like entrapment to me. Perhaps I'm not understanding the situation, because I read the article a few times to try and figure out what was going on, but as I went to read it another time for info, the BBC decided it hated me.
quote:The leaflets gave lifesaving tips on how to avoid fires.
Yes they were asked to give out leaflets on fire prevention at a gay rights parade. Presumably the powers that be thought that as the gay rights event would draw a large number of people to the area, this might be a very effective way of spreading the message.
Now I'm confused. How is this entrapment?
ETA: Double spanked. Hewlett-Packard OMANK
-------------------- "Ladies and gentlemen, this is what is commonly known as money. It comes in all sizes, colours, and denominations - like people." Posts: 997 | From: Maidstone, UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
While fire safety is important, I do not think that firepersons should be compelled to appear to support a cause they do not support. I would also support Jewish firepersons who didn't want to hand out leaflets at a neo-Nazi parade, or Blacks at a KKK rally, or homosexuals at a Westboro Baptist parade.
pinqy
-------------------- Don't Forget! Winter Solstice Hanukkah Christmas Kwanzaa & Gurnenthar's Ascendance Are Coming! Posts: 8671 | From: Washington, DC | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
What about Democratic firefighters asked to distribute leaflets at a Republican rally, or vice versa?
-------------------- How homophobic do you have to be to have penguin gaydar? - Lewis Black Posts: 8322 | From: Columbus, OH | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Lainie: What about Democratic firefighters asked to distribute leaflets at a Republican rally, or vice versa?
Same thing. If you don't support a cause and your presence can be interpreted as supporting that cause, you shouldn't be forced to go. Essential services, such as police support or actual fire safety (for example if there was a large amount of electrical equipment or pyrotechnics) is a different story because core job duties would not be interpreted as support for the cause, while leaflet distribution could be.
pinqy
-------------------- Don't Forget! Winter Solstice Hanukkah Christmas Kwanzaa & Gurnenthar's Ascendance Are Coming! Posts: 8671 | From: Washington, DC | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
But should firefighters give their supervisors a list of "causes" they don't want to be seen supporting and demand that they not be expected to work in any milieu where they might be seen as supportive of that cause.
That seems like it might create a lot of headaches for a supervisor.
-------------------- If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation. - Jean Kerr Posts: 18428 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Lainie: What about Democratic firefighters asked to distribute leaflets at a Republican rally, or vice versa?
Same thing. If you don't support a cause and your presence can be interpreted as supporting that cause, you shouldn't be forced to go. Essential services, such as police support or actual fire safety (for example if there was a large amount of electrical equipment or pyrotechnics) is a different story because core job duties would not be interpreted as support for the cause, while leaflet distribution could be.
pinqy
The cause the firemen were being asked to support by distributing leaflets was 'don't set your house on fire. Don't leave the chip pan unattended, don't smoke in bed etc.'
I don't think there's a difference between a gay or a straight fire, or between a nazi, liberal or communist fire. They pretty much all are the same - flames smoke heat.
Unless of course teh gays have a higher proportion of combustibles in their houses.
-------------------- "Ladies and gentlemen, this is what is commonly known as money. It comes in all sizes, colours, and denominations - like people." Posts: 997 | From: Maidstone, UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
The analogy of Jewish firefighters at a neo-nazi rally or gay firefighters at a Westboro rally doesn't hold, as the gay rights movement is not anti-firefighter. Perhaps more accurate would be atheist firefighters refusing to hand out leaflets at a church, or Christian firefighters refusing to hand out leaflets at a synagogue.
-------------------- ~~Ai am in mai prrrrrraime!~~ Posts: 10111 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Sep 2004
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